Were you suggesting that I'm non-Christian?

Pretty lively discussion and interesting that people have so many different angles. I'm seeing several different takes, and maybe they depend on the cheater or x-cheater.

1) I'm really a good person who just slipped up. This sort of implies that non-christians are not good people but I doubt most mean it that way.

2) I'm feeling doubly low because I broke two major relationships at once. Marriage and religion.

3) I'm already forgiven by god so you better forgive me as well. specifically if you are christian you are required to forgive or be punished forever (which is a long time).

4) It's just an important part of me so I said it. Sort of the way I say I'm a father of 5. I think it is good for people to know before I say my opinions.

5) I'm wanting to convert others to christianity. I think this is a very small minority but I see it occasionally.

If I implied you're not a Christian, I apologize. My reference was back to those who had stated that they are atheists. I too am enjoying the dialog with you.

I can't condemn you, because I haven't dealt with a non-repentent WW. I just hope you can forgeive her and free yourself from the anger and hurt so that you can heal. You deserve it after all you've been through.

I don't see how this can possibly be. It's certainly not true in my case.

I will be labeled forever as a home-wrecker, a wh***, and other degrading things by some whose opinions mean much to me. I have lost respect, integrity, and dignity. I have lost the trust of many. I have guilt and shame. I no longer work at the job where the A took place and am making about a quarter of what I was making. I have lost friends. Every day I have to look at the pain on my H and know I alone caused it. I may lose my M. I may lose my family. I wake up daily and wonder if today is the day the papers will come.

How is living your life knowing you destroyed so many and much of what was good "a clean slate"?

I believe I have been forgiven by God, and that is humbling. However, forgiveness from my BS, from myself, and from others around me is something I long for and it may never come. But even if I get that grace, I am living in this world now and the consequences for what I've done are real. I will always be an adulterer and I will pay in some ways forever because of it. There is no reward, no "zero repercussions" for what I've done. Those who think this FWW is dancing daily in a field of lillies, singing gleefully about being forgiven, you have no idea about the shame and hurt I live with -- knowing I've done something horrific that was preventable.

No one knows what I'm feeling just as I don't know what a BS is feeling nor exactly what other WWs and FWWs are feeling. What I do know from what I've read here and from what I've seen from my H is that it's pain all around. How each chooses to respond -- through God or not -- is his/her choice.

6YL,

3) I'm already forgiven by god so you better forgive me as well. specifically if you are christian you are required to forgive or be punished forever (which is a long time).

Yea that one bothers me, its' too sorta like the get out of sin free card I feel many born agains carry. Feels rather smug of them, but it does make Jewish guilt seem attractive, or even Muslim stoneings.

NJ

Runnerboy You have to be one of the more sincere Christians ever to accept an OC and raise him/her as your own, even after seeing the conception almost. Few men could do what you do.

From the posts I have seen mentioning a WS's religion, such as the quotes 6YL put into the original post, I agree with RB65 that the motivation seems to be to convey the double depth of their betrayal. Its been rare that I have seen someone make that claim in the context of deserving quick forgiveness.

I'd also like to stand in solidarity with my atheist cohorts in this thread, and make a few comments on morality. My sense of morality is basically grounded in the idea that we should treat people as equals, without the intent to lie, defraud, or infringe upon their right to exist and pursue their own happiness. That also means that I don't believe we have the right to pursue our own happiness by sacrificing those around us.

I believe adultery is wrong, not because some God claims it is, but because I don't recognize my or anyone else's right to keep their partner like a pet, while they actively cause them grave emotional and potentially physical harm. That act of disrespect and dishonesty is extremely immoral. In other words, by being in the relationship, I have given my partner a claim on me that says she can expect honesty and care. Adultery violates that trust and reveals a glaring weakness of character.

Personally, I think our morality has its basis in biology and evolution. Living things are more likely to survive in groups, so those traits that allow individuals to function peacefully with others are more likely to reproduce, and those traits become more common.

I agree with MyRev that organized religion, or more accurately the dogma it pushes, is the greatest threat to the future of the human race.

I've wanted to say this to you for awhile, Pariah...because my heart has ached for you over the course of reading you on MB.

Please stop lying to yourself.

You pick the worst possible and unreal belief to stab yourself with...makes since to keep that pain fresh and freshly aware...so much better protection...no missteps...safe.

Not.

"All things come to pass"...

What I quoted above is not true. You don't know how God will move by touch or challenge your xWW. He will not cease...and he wants you to do so...for to take the reins from him, condemn her to unchanging, hurts you.

And he loves you terribly...even as he loves your xWW.

Right now (or previously) this was her belief...hers, not the truth...just hers. After long time buying lies to herself, who can sort out truth from personal fiction? Remains solely her job to do so...

and has no bearing on your own truthfulness, which lies you choose to feed yourself...do not walk the same road, Pariah. Be radically honest with yourself. Consequences are inherent...they keep coming...independent of how much containment, ignoring, erasing we attempt in ourselves...

they keep coming...for decades...and longer.

You don't know what will come or not come to be...and it doesn't matter. Her loss is truly knowing you...as you change...grow...thrive...

Leave her to her loss, Pariah. And commit to adding "right now" to your sentences, to keep truth in your arms, next to your heart...where you love, anyway.

LA

MyRev,

Personally, I have little respect for religion, and actually feel it represents, as a whole, the single greatest threat to the world today.

Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, and many of the other great killers of the 20th century were Atheists. Seems like in the mass murder sweepstakes the Christians are falling behind. But I'm optimistic that Islam can help us Abrahamic peoples catch up in the 21st century. Well we'll just have to wait and see.

NJ

Runner,
I'm atheist, so not christian. I don't know if I forgive xWW, I'm certainly not bitter. In fact I don't really care about her at all anymore. I do try to protect the children from any more damage at her hands, but that has been pretty easy.

NJ,

I think we can all agree that evil people will step in to use any belief system with enough followers. Communism/socialism for the people you mentioned, environmental causes, religion, ... Unfortunately evil people can sniff these causes out and twist them to their own cause.

This isn't directed at you 6YL, but before someone brings it up, I just want to point out that atheism is not a belief system. It is a lack of belief based on insufficient evidence. As Richard Dawkins put it, "Atheism is a belief system in much the same way as not collecting stamps is a hobby."

Unfettered,

Oh I agree, in fact it would be very difficult to round up the atheists to do horrible things without some other philosophy like communism or socialism.

Wouldn't that more correctly be attributed to agnosticism?

In other words, agnostics have the absence of belief - neither for nor against the existence of God. But atheists DO believe that there is NOT a God.

There is a difference between stating (1) there IS a God; (2) there is NOT a God; (3) I don't know whether or not there is a God.

If someone believes in a God and lives their life accordingly, and they are wrong, no biggie - they will never know.

If someone believes there is NO God, and they are wrong, the repercussions could be quite significant.

That's about the most ridiculous statement I've seen today.

The prisions are filled with atheists that were neither communist nor socialist in there philosophy. They just had no god, therefore no moral absolutes.

And quoting the profound wisdom of Dawkins, the god of the lower church atheists, is not helpful in your point UF. His purpose is to eliminate any and all references to God, hence he is Antitheist, not atheist. And for the record, it's obvious that atheism is Dawkins belief, not a hobby like stamp collecting. He has made millions of dollors preaching about it from his pulpit!

Jayne,

What if you pick the wrong god to believe in? That type of pascal's wager is not for me. I can't believe in something to just feel good.

Tst,

I don't know the stats on prisoners and religious belief. I could probably look it up if that would be interesting to you. Please reread my statement, it was not about individual acts it was referring to group movements.

You seem a little sensitive so I included the percentage of atheists in prison

Canadian Prisons Atheist/ Agnostic, non-religious Uniterain
0% 0 of 1,2061

Prison Population executed for murder non-religious
0.33%

U.S. Prisoners
Atheist 0.209%
156 of 74,731 Federal Bureau of Prisons


Have you read Dawkin's books? It is interesting, better than the Christopher Hitchen;s bitterness. I usually read them all, I've probably read more pages of religion than almost anyone. I've read bible, torah, koran, book of mormon, dianetics, a whole bunch of ancient greek, egyptian, norse mythologies, hindu writings, buddist writings, shinto.

Tst,

I just did a little research and found this. I didn't write it but the references check out.

In **1997**, the Federal Bureau of Prisons released the professed religious adherence rate of those in the U.S. Federal Prison system.

Christians make up about 80% of the American population AND prison population.

However, Atheists make up about 8% of the American population but only 0.2% of the prison population.

On the flip side, only about 1-3% of Americans are Muslim, but 7.2% of inmates are Muslim.

Tst,
This moral absolutist accusation is thrown around an awful lot by believers. Could you name one of these moral absolutes that requires belief in a personal God? I have never heard of one act of morality or kindness that could not be performed by believer and non-believer alike.



Dawkins is certainly taking atheism to the street, and sometimes with good cause as evidenced by the assault on our science curriculum in PA and probably next in Texas. He is defintely one of the more vocal atheists and does have an antitheist movement to combat what he sees as the negative influence of draconian ideas. Remember that he is not just attacking Christianity, but all of the major monotheistic religions.

UF,

I think he also takes on the polytheistic religions, but not with the same enthusiasm.

Probably true. I read a couple of his books, but its been awhile.

On another note, I'm surprised that this thread hasn't been locked or moved to the OT forum yet.