ok, so why is your son living with you if he causes you stress? You can still reach his [censored].

lol, had to laugh we all said we shouldn't be talking about this on Mike's thread at the same time!

Ok, it goes back to when the boy was a very little boy. A very difficult birth and a very difficult child. Never slept, always anxious, just difficult. When his sister came along I didn't realise a baby or child could be so easy.

We sent him to private school thinking it would be good for him. He should have gone to the local elementary school - that was our first mistake. He was wilful, difficult, impossible to reason with all through his young years. I used to collapse in tears constantly - I just couldn't deal with him.

Eventually he went to high school. Another private school - one year there and he was almost suicidal. He is bright, very, very bright. We took him out of that school and sent him to the local high school. He grew his hair right down his back, he got in with a bad crowd. Then he met a couple of boys (twins) who were great guys. He was influenced by them in a good way. But at school he started to wag (sorry, not sure of the American word - not attending - truant). The school called us and said he was failing everything. We went and saw the Principal, they told him he had parents who cared for him and loved him and they were prepared to let him catch up on all his work. He looked at his shoes and said "no".

We went to a counsellor to learn tough love. That worked for a while but he soon dropped out of school without graduating, without anything. He started hanging around the house (he was 15). Then he moved away from Auckland. For two years he was gone and we hardly ever heard from him. He was doing ok on his own. (He was on welfare by then). Then a relationship he had went terribly wrong and he moved back home "just for a while to get himself together". Because he's so fragile - he is fragile -we let him stay. Still no work - but he formed a band and they did very well. He's an extremely talented artist and musician - right up there with the best and smart - so clever.

Time moved on - girls came and went - they all left because he had no future. He became 25, he became 30 and still nothing. He went off welfare and started to work in our bookstore. That was something. He's moody, he calls the shots in our house. He's vegan, he's teetotal, he's so different. He has lots of tattoos. I just don't know how he happened to us. We suggest courses, we tell him he could go to Art School, to University but he's so frightened of failure he never moves. We support him. I love the boy. He's so like me. Rob just ties himself in knots over him.

I won't discuss him moving out. I'm in complete and total denial over the whole issue. It's just too hard.

Then there's our DD. Went through school, graduated with an A bursary (that's equivalent to the highest achievement you can get at school here), got her BA, got a great job, married a wonderful man. How does that happen in the same family?

I know we have to be tough with him eventually but he's so fragile. Why do I think that?

Jen, hugs to you.

Please look at the material at bpkids.org and depressedteens.com and see if it *might* apply to your situation.

I am the parent of from 1-3 mood-disordered kids, depending on when you ask, and your description is classic. Bright, moody, needy, and


***fragile***

This is so tough. I get it.

**wish I had connected with you in Auckland!**

if you want to contact me directly, lildoggie has my info and it is OK with me for her to share it with you. I will do all I can to help you and your family in this situation.

Hi Jen,

Sorry to hear about the difficulties you're having with your eldest. Its tough dealing with soon to be adult or adult children. We're working on ours, trying to help him find a sense of direction and he's always been a well behaved, grounded child.

My personal thoughts are that you need to take baby steps to modify the situation so that it's acceptable for you. You need to regain control of your house for your own sanity. Does your son pay rent? Does he have a lease? Does he pay for his own food? Do his own laundry? If he isn't, these are things he should be doing so that he's contributing. Shelve kicking him out for now, it doesn't seem like you're willing to pull the trigger on that anyway. Pick something that he can take ownership of (rent is a good one to start with) and give that a whirl. He only runs the house because you let him.

T

Put me on the "I can relate" list. Our DD was diagnosed BP when she was 11. Until that time we only knew she wasn't doing what kids her age should be doing. She started cutting school in the 3rd grade, would spend the whole day walking around a railroad yard or the local park and then catch her ride home with the rest of the kids.

She's now almost 35 and lives with Mom and Dad with her own daughter who we adore, BTW (she turned 4 on Tuesday)... She's had three full time jobs in the past 12 months.

For years we tried the "consequences" road with her. It only made her do other stupid stuff to try to make up for the first stupid stuff. It was when she was in high school that we began to discover that she doesn't respond to consequences to her actions because there is some sort of disconnect and she does not associate the consequences with what she did very well. Once her doctor saw this happening his response was pretty much to sigh and say "I'm sorry you have to deal with this."

At one point our goal was to keep her alive till she was 18, then 21, then 25...We eventually stopped seeking help because we just couldn't afford it any more. We spent 50, 60, 100K at a shot for a while and just had no more resources to delve into at some point.

Real retirement at this point seems unrealistic, so we just go from day to day and wonder what will happen when we're gone or when we can no longer be there for her.

She's been to truck-driving school, got her CDL and has had several driving jobs, but always ends up without a job some how. Then she hides it from us for a while until we find out on our own.

She has more college credit than I do but still can't hold a job more than a few weeks. Part of the trouble she has is she usually enters a job in a manic phase and works 24/7 until she is exhausted. When she crashes, she falls farther than most and by the time she hits bottom, she hasn't been to work in several days and is now unemployed again. It's a cycle we can clearly see taking place time and again, but there is nothing we seem to be able to do to stop it from happening.

So we wait for the crash and then deal with it the best we can. It's sort of like watching as a car accident takes place. You know it's coming but can't do anything to prevent it. We just learn to see when it is about to happen and then get ready for the clean-up.

Once our GD is older, we will probably pressure her to leave, but it's hard to tell yourself that your grandchild has to suffer consequences for her mother's illness.

Mark

I gotcha. He is fragile because you have no one has ever trained him to be a man. Sorry you choose to live like that.

Kiwi,

Here comes the 2x4. You are doing the easy thing so that you feel good while you are hurting your son. Kids are all different, the parents job is to help them grow up. Until you do that he will continue to be "fragile".

If he is actually mentally ill then he needs professional treatment, not parents who enable him.

Jen,
I agree with 6. You probably don't see yourself as an enabler but continuing to support him and his behavior is enabling. Tough love (I think) is one of the most difficult for any parent but we're not talking about a small child. Your son is an adult. I would encourage him to seek professional help.

GG

Jen I had some concerns for my son at 17 and funny enough none for my daughter who like yours went on to uni DD went on to medicine. DD really never gave me problems ... until recently... just have a few post deployment wives issues.. partying.. drinking that sort of thing.
But she is working on that stuff. Ask her nana lol :twobyfour:

Now my son was painfully shy and I guess what some would call a bit geeky in some ways. He played sports very well and did really well at those but still it was like he was going from pillar to post. Lost ... not interested

I mean it wasn't like I or Aussie ever pushed the kids to chose a career or uni or anything like that. We encouraged when they brought up something they were interested in but that was it.

One day I was annoyed with him not making his bed and why should he because I was making it and tidying his room, well shaddup he was my baby boy lol , but ok I wasn't doing him favours I guess.
Anyway I said something like "Why don't you join the bloody army or something you lazy sod"

2 months later he announced to us at a family dinner he wanted to go and become an officer in the Army. Had researched it, spoken to army careers and everything. Can you sign the papers mum? I was HORRIFIED. All I could think of to say was 'You mean you are going to make your own bed for the next 2 years or so?"

Didn't mum get her wish and how. :MrEEk:

In the end I signed his papers to go. But didn't want to.
Right then I wished I had kept my bloody mouth shut.

However he loves being in the Army he loves the life and the risk and all of it. He hasn't looked back. He's so much like a younger Aussie it scares the heck outa me. Its all one big adventure. :crosseyedcrazy:

But to day when I and his wife to be ... Aussies little Kitten... had to say goodbye again all we did was cry and I wished and wished I had refused to sign the damned papers.

But I guess it would have only delayed it all.

And yet Jen I still want to protect him and save him and keep him safe. But I can't. Its a feeling of absolute powerlessness.

And he'll always be to me the little boy who used to run into my arms when he was hurt or happy. Not all the years will ever change that.

But as my DD so eloquently puts it "IT SUCKS"

AW,

Good for you. It is hard to see them growing up. My oldest is about to become a father, and go off to medical school. Having 4 more at home takes away some of the sting, but it is hard.

Thank you all for your caring replies, they really touched me, even the 2x4s. I am well aware I need those.

He is a very good mannered and sweet young man. He had an accident on his racing bike (bicycle) a few weeks ago and his friend told us that, even though he was bleeding all over the place and didn't know where or who he was, he was trying to be as polite as possible to the hospital staff and didn't want to be a nuisance to them.

The pluses are that he does his own cooking and laundry and buys his own food.

The thing is he's not a teenager or a child, he's a man. He's as old as some of the BHs here.

I learned very early on in his childhood that the consequences of trying to discipline him had nasty repurcussions - door kicking, tantrums etc etc. I grew up with that with my sister and that's when I learned to keep my head down, avoid all conflict and stay out of the line of fire. I know people laugh at Supernanny, but a programme like that could have turned our lives around when he was small.

I know we have to do something. I think the idea of more baby steps is the answer. Yet, he'll come up to me in the kitchen and give me a hug for no reason. We talk about books and movies. He has a huge social conscience and hates injustice.

He just doesn't need to do it in our house lol!

Chrys, Lil has sent me your email and I'll definitely be in touch!

ETA Mark, this "For years we tried the "consequences" road with her. It only made her do other stupid stuff to try to make up for the first stupid stuff." rang huge bells for me.

To prove he actually is talented, this is one of his paintings.

Painting

OMG! That is a BEAUTIFUL painting, Jen!

He needs someone to sponsor him and show his work!!

I don't know how it would work in your situation but I'm sure that people in the art world are accustomed to dealing with sensitive artists.

They probably like dealing with those better than the a-holes, KWIM?

Charlotte

Great painting and talent. Speaking from experience - artist have a lot of creative energy. If that energy is not released it gets bottled up and that's when the artist self-sabotage. Your son should look into organizations that do good things with their art to benefit other people or organizations. He'll feel better about himself, his work and his life.

P.S. No one was saying your son is bad. My brother is a wonderful human being with a heart of gold but he's an alcoholic. He's 45. If I had the answer as to why kids in the same family turn out so different, I would be a millionaire.

GG

Ggirl, what WONDERFUL advice. Doing something like that would fill his need to do good and let him be creative.

I think our next step is asking for rent. He earns enough now from his work in our store to be able to pay rent.

Jen it really is different strokes for different folks. When a boot in the butt will help one a gentle caring hand up will work for others.

Your one little step at time may work.

It may not.

But it sounds like you tried an whole lot of other things.

In the end he has to want to change even if its just enough to be able to carve out a way to live and be happy.

But mums never feel ok when they see their kids lost or hurting.
Even if self inflicted. I always have a battle to let go.

Kiwi,
You have to put conditions with asking for rent. E.g. if you miss three consecutive months of rent, (you and H determine consequence). You can also reward, if you consistenly pay rent for three months your reward will be (you get to continue living here).

I have to tell you what your post came at a good time. My artist daughter was crying today because she thought she lost her talent (she's 13). I showed her your son's painting and how he also is afraid of failure and told her his age. Well, I got a smile out of her and she stopped crying. You can tell your son he inspried another young artist today.

GG

Aussie,
I know what you mean. My son is going into Navy next year and I'm already crying over it (not in front of him). I always knew he would be in public service and I've let him find his own destiny. All I can do is try to make every event/moment memorable this year - as painful as it is knowing a year from now I have to let go. I'm teary eyed thinking about it...typical mom right!

GG

Hi Jen...

Here's a book that you might find intriguing: Touched With Fire: Manic Depress...c Temperment by Kay Redfield Jamison

Mrs. W

P.S. Cool Painting!

Jen:

You know the first step in fixing a problem?

Admitting that there IS a problem.

Sure, having a 30-something son living with you can be a problem. But what IS the problem?

Not having him living with you. No, that's not a problem.

The problem is allowing his moods and "fragileness" to control your lifestyle.

"Creeping" around the house so as not to upset him? That's the problem.

You state that he works in your family store. Does he do a good job? If you were to compare his performance to others in your store, would you rate him better or worse? If it is worse, than you are tolerating something that you wouldn't in someone else in your employ. (Yes, I can concede that by paying HIM, your not paying someone else OUTSIDE of the family, so there is some value in that discount.)

We have a local family here that has a 45 YO still living at home. Big house, wealth, he works in the family business, artist. Quite a good artist actually. What's the point?

It's better living at home than elsewhere. You can make it uncomfortable for him to live in your home and he might move out. But he has no reason to. You CAN, and SHOULD put in place boundaries to prevent his volitile actions from determining your lifestyle. He can go to his room. This is YOUR house.

Another good friend of mine has a 30 YO living at home. This man is a little developmently disabled. He used to have a job, He could feed the fish and clean the tanks at the local pet shop. He was good at that. But the store closed. Finding him another position is difficult. What's the point?

If your son has a actual problem, then he may be with you for the rest of his life. If not, he may be with you for the rest of his life. Doesn't make you bad parents or enablers. Just makes you parents.

Personally? When I was 21 year old, I was GONE. I never moved back home, and would have never done it. There was no opportunity there. Now, if Mom had a nice warm house and a lovely view, I could have gone home and stayed as well. Not now of course, but when I exited the military, I KNEW I wasn't going back to Mom's house. There was nothing there.

It wasn't so long ago (60-70 years?) that several generations all lived under one roof. Housing was expensive. It still is. The real problem is allowing his emotions to control your life. So establish what you feel are appropriate boundaries for your relationship with him, and then enforce them. Don't back down.

Charging him rent is meaningless. He works for you. You could withhold 25 quid a week from his pay and state that it is for "rent". So what. You could make the rent 100 quid a week, or a 1,000. What are you going to do with the money? He now has learned to live with less, and he can move out because then he can get that cash and pay his rent? I do not think that is what is going to happen at ALL. It will just create AN AWFUL lot of turmoil, for no real gain. Because if he "quits" working for you, and then moves to another job, your just going to have the same fight with him, but you not going to have the ability to collect the "rent".

And to those who say it brings him "responsibility" to pay "rent". Is say no. Responsibilty is PAYING THE RENT when you have to. The landlord is going to throw you out if you don't pay. Mom and Dad are not. It's that simple.

Establish your boundaries. The rest will work from there slowly.

LG

Jen - you sound a lot like me, and I also have a "fragile" son. He was the first born, and came out screaming and crying. I think that is one reason why I got so attached to him.

But moms can break the wings of their sons, before they leave the nest. It is really hard to explain, but by not letting him stand up on his own, you are hurting him. I was the same way.

A year ago, I asked him to leave. And I was very frightened that he might commit suicide because he needed me so much. He was depressed for almost a year, and just lately has grown his wings, and is soaring. He is working full time and starting his 2nd year of college.

By not making him stand on his own, you are teaching him that you don't have confidence in him, and so he won't have confidence in himself.