Give her time - in your mind you should be willing to give her at least as much time as you spent in a state of insobriety - in order for her to know the changes you are making in recovery are lasting. Kasey didn't get sober overnight. In alcoholic terms, his first two years were white-knuckling dry drunk years where he was even more unpleasant and selfish than when he was at his worst times in his addiction.

The al-anon comment was that each addict seems to despise the behavior of an anon more than anything. They use the co-dependent spouse, yet hate them for allowing themselves to be used. When they truly get into recovery, working ALL aspects of the program, particularly the traditions, that's when they discover "you spot it you got it" and start working on their co-dependent behavior.

If you "need" your wife to behave a certain way for you to find happiness in your day connecting with God, then you have need to work on the co-dependent part of your recovery. If you "need" your wife to meet your emotional needs for you to feel loving toward her and your children, then you have need to work on the co-dependent part of your recovery.

There's a reason Harley says his program doesn't work for addicts. See, the addict doesn't get to claim sobriety. My husband walked through that "proof" for me during those hateful first two years that nearly killed our marriage. It was actually a reading of HNHN that got him into a recovery program in the first place - he asked me which love buster he did that hurt the most and I told him - angry outbursts. The problem became selfish demands once he entered into "clean time" when he wanted and needed me to do more SF in order for him to not feel the pain of getting clean. So he wasn't clean - he didn't want to "connect" with me - he just wanted to use me so he could still call himself "clean and sober". A very ugly time in our nearly 25 yr marriage.

When he realized finally that his codependent behavior in our relationship was moving him away from the marriage, he finally got the reality that clean time isn't sobriety and sobriety isn't just clean time. He doesn't get credit for clean time from me if he's not acting sober.

I haven't seen him act out in our relationship for quite some time now. I believe at least 5 years. But it's only been in the last two that he's grown enough to start stepping into more of his responsibilities. It has been since 1994 that he stepped into a 12 step meeting, btw.

Can you give your wife 15 years of clean and sober time with progressively better behavior on your part? I hope my sharing with you helps you knock a few years off that time - especially the first two years...

Thanks for your posts here. As much as I hate to admit it, I have been addicted to P & MB for my entire marriage. It started long before my marriage and I admitted it to my W before we married. She was very devestated when I told her about my problem, but she married me anyway.

We had a rough marriage and she has left me now for another man. All of the things that KaylaAndy and PainfulGrowth have said about the wife's reactions and feelings is what my wife has said and felt. I don't know if she has ever caught me in the act, but I think she knows about my behavior because of subtle things she has said.

Regardless of whether she ever knew for sure what I was doing during our marriage, the effects are poignant. My behavior during our 3.5 year marriage is one of the things making it hard for me to give up on our marriage because I know that I am partly responsible for creating the situation that led to my wife's A.

There might not be much that I can do to save my marriage now because she has moved out and is in a relationship with another man. But she has given me a clue here and there that she doesn't want me out of the marriage picture yet. Maybe she is cake-eating, but even though divorce has been filed for, she says that she is in no hurry to finalize the D.

Anyway, I have addressed my behavior with a marriage counselor and he says that my marriage was over before it began because I had that problem going into my marriage. I am in personal recovery from my addiction and probably have a long road to go down.

Even though my spouse has had affairs in the past during her first marriage and is having one now, do you think it is unfair for me to give up on our marriage since I have my own addiction issues? This is something that has been causing me a lot of lost sleep. I'd kind of feel like a hipocrite if I finalized the divorce and moved on without first addressing my problems.

Sorry to thread-jack alittle with my own story here but I have gained a lot of insite from everyone here. I'll continue to watch and hopefully learn. Whatever happens with my own wife, I know that I need to work on myself a lot and take my problem seriously..

Erich - are you working a 12 step program of any kind?

If there's not an SA group meeting in your area, go to an open AA meeting and just think of yourself as an addict. They welcome all addicts to those open meetings. NA open meetings are also good.

Get yourself a straight shooting sponsor who will set you straight on any personal self-deception as you inventory your first and 4th steps and work through the entire program.

You need to do this is you intend to be a fit father teaching your children appropriate sexuality in how you live clean and sober!

Thanks again for your posts KaylaAndy - they are very helpful. This last one, especially, in giving me a sense of perspective.

The quote above (and your corresponding discussion on co-dependency) has caused me to do some serious thinking. When I first read your post, I thought to myself, "Oh my gosh - that is me. I am not feeling loving toward my wife right now, and it is because of how she is treating me!" That startled me only because I haven't viewed our relationship from that lens before.

As I sat with your post for a while, however, my perspective changed a bit. I started realizing that I have been carrying around an attitude of "my happiness doesn't depend on my W - whether she is meeting my emotional needs should not and does not impact how I treat her." I looked at this from the perspective of not maniuplating her - not being passive-aggresive. I didn't use the phrase "co-dependent" in my thinking. But - I think it is the same thing, or at least dancing around the same subject.

Upon reflecting on your comment even more, it occurred to me that most of the time I don't "feel" that my wife is meeting my emotional needs (or at least the ones that I feel are most important and that were the hinges upon which I used her in the past). Yet - it is only sometimes that I don't feel loving toward my wife. Most of the time I still feel loving and don't withdraw and try to treat her as I think (its hard to know for sure without her sharing) she wants to be treated. So - I need to figure out why there are times that I don't feel that way.

Why, starting last week, did I seem to get in this funk where I feel more isolated and lonely, and have a hard time feeling fulfilled and managing my emotions without affection from my W if I am doing ok (and feeling loving toward her) day in and day out for the most part? If I can learn to manage these episodes better, then it will be easier to give her the space she wants/needs without pressuring her or me feeling like I cannot live like this.

This whole discussion, however, raises an interesting logical debate in my head that I should explore in another post (this post is already getting long enough). But for starters, here is the gist of it: if I live a life where I don't need my wife to be happy (i.e., what emotional needs I can fulfill without being unfaithful I fulfill with others and what emotional needs I can only get from my wife I learn to live without, and be balanced and happy about it) what really is the point of being married (or having a partner) other than the children? I say this is logical, becauase emotionally I want to be with my wife and hopefully achieve a true romantic partnership someday (not based upon feeding my addiction). It just seems to be a strange paradox that perhaps I have to let go of needing my wife in order to achieve intimacy with her. Now the subject I wanted to speak about in another post is becoming too central in this one. I shall stop for another day.

Hello Erichh:

You ask if it is unfair for you to divorce your wife right now. I know we definitely can't answer that question for you, but my own thought is that the framing of the question is perhaps not right. It is not a question of fairness.

My own experience tells me that it is hard to work on the relationship when you have your own issues you are trying to resolve. The whole sex addiction thing will take time and commitment. That should be your first priority right now. Find a 12 step program (as KaylaAndy says) or check out one-on-one coaching on RecoveryNation.com (I found that incredibly helpful for me). Get your personal life in order. That is priority number one. If that is your priority right now, why make a final decision with respect to your marriage? Put it on hold, work on yourself. Start thinking straight and then decide how best to deal with your wife.

One final thought - it would seem to me that the emotional health and balance of your children might ultimately drive your decision with respect to your wife rather than fairness.

If you have a thread, please link to it: I will follow and comment. Good luck.

PG, If you're that far along to be aware of these things and the conflict between having emotional needs, but also the ability to feel fulfilled without having to have someone else meet them, you come to the crux of the maturing intimate high quality marriage.

A reading of Seven Habits of Highly Effective People is probably a good thing to address. Focus on the big picture of 7 Habits - the maturity continuum - from Dependence (addiction) to Independence (not needing someone else to meet your needs) to Interdependence (choosing to meet someone else's needs and allow them to meet your needs as they can).

Good non-confrontational book to read together as a couple!

No. I went to SAA for about four months prior to my marriage and then quit going because I moved to the city where my wife lived.. I had mixed feelings about going to the meetings. Sometimes it felt like it was working and other times it didn't.

Most of the people there had a lot worse problems than I had (like visiting prostitutes and pedafilia). Sometimes I felt that maybe I shouldn't even be there because all I did was view P and MB occasionally... But, the effects on my relationships seem real and negative due to my objectifying of women.


I agree. Now seems like a good time to work hard on recovering from my addiction. I'll look into possibly joining another local group.

This makes a lot of sense. If I rush to finalize the divorce so that I can start dating again. I may find myself in a similar situation and have the same problems because I haven't changed. I do feel like my own personal progress should be my #1 priority for me and also for the sake of my son at the very least.


This is a tough one for me. If WW decided to come back to the marriage and go NC with OM and work on rebuilding our marriage and if I continued to recover also and work on recovery, I think that would truly be best for my son and step-children. But if WW strings me along for years while I work on myself and I become "whole" again and she still doesn't want to come back, I think that divorce would be the answer.

So, for now, I think that I will focus on myself and my own weaknesses and mistakes and get my life straight and go from there.

Thanks for the level headed reasoning!


My thread is here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2168358&fpart=67

My thread recently focused on getting custody of my son because WW was keeping him from me. But now we have a signed temporary custody/visitation agreement that I am pleased with and WW has been very friendly again.

I'll go back to my own thread. But I think I need to either start a new thread focusing on my own self-recovery or change the direction of my thread to what you are doing here, Painfulgrowth.

I like that KaylaAndy is here. I've found her insights very enlightening and helpful. I like to read her perspective from the other side. I hope that she will participate in my thread too. I feel a little embarrassed admitting my problem on my own thread because I've kind of gotten to know the other people here and I don't like to air out my dirty laundry for everyone to see but i guess that's what this place is for--to be honest with each other to help each other grow...

Hello Pepperband - thanks for the post and sorry for the slow delay in responding.

I'm not sure exactly what take-away you were hoping I would get from reading the parable. What jumps out at me is that no matter how "good" of a partner I am being right now to my W, there is damage I have caused that can never be repaired - ever. The main point being that I should have empathy for my W and what she is going through.

Empathy is actually something that she has brought up on a somewhat regular basis. Here is the thing I don't understand and that I struggle with. I believe I have empathy for what my wife is going through. I really try to see how she has been hurt and how best to interact with her so that I respect what she is going throug and minimize additional pain that I might cause. But, there are times that I strike out in this regard. I do the wrong thing - most often, I approach a conversation in the wrong fashion. For example, I may bring up a topic or talk about something in a way that hurts her or makes her feel like I don't respect her or understand what she is going through. Here is where I struggle - I don't think the cause of this is a lack of empathy - the cause, I think, is a failure to communicate. I have the empathy - it makes me walk gingerly through all conversations, pretty much afraid to say anything of substance with respect to the past or our relationship. Its hard to figure out the best way to approach certain things in the way that is most respectful of her. Even though I am empathetic, doesn't mean that I am completely in her hed. I can understand how difficult something must be, but that doesn't mean that I will automatically understand how my W would like me to approach a painful topic. Empathy does not automatically translate into a perfect form of communication. I think that takes a level of dialogue between two people that my W and I are not capable of at this stage in our process (I would call it recovery, but since W is in withdrawal, it can't rightfully be called recovery). Here is the difficult thing - how can we get to that level of dialogue (where I don't just have empathay, but understand exactly how I should communicate) if she is in a state of withdrawal?

Perhaps it is not possible. My general take right now, after the excellent dialogue I had with AndyKayla the past few days, is that I need to be much more patient - do my thing, try to work on my end of the relationship, and give her time. Perhaps that is the most empathetic thing I can do.

Please challenge me on the whole empathy/communication thing if you disagree. That is part of the reason I am posting here - to get outside of the echo chamber of my own head. Without couples counseling or relationship discussion with my wife, this is the best outlet to be challenged and pushed. So push away.

Thanks inrecoverynow, your post was helpful and I appreciate it. I'm also sorry that it has taken me so long to respond. I generally only have the opportunity to get on and post early in the morning so it can take me a while to work through the posts I get, like I did last Friday.

In any event, I have been mulling over your post for the past week, and much of what you say makes sense to me.

I think I have reached a zen place with respect to her recovery. In other words, I know that I cannot push her to recovery faster than she is or push her to even make the decision on whether she wants to recover. If you were talking to her, I bet she would probably say that she has pretty much recovered personally but she cannot begin recovering in our marriage until I show her I am ready, almost as if there is some magical thing she needs/wants me to do to show her I'm ready but I have no idea what that is. She has stated to me in the past that she needs me to show her the way forward, that for once in her life she needs to rely on me to get us there. So, I get this weird conflicted sense from her. On the one hand she needs space to heal on her own and my pushing or trying to work on the relationship is actually hurting us because I'm not respecting her boundaries. On the other hand, she says she needs me to be the catalyst to get things going between us. I'm not sure how to do that and yet give her the time/space to heal at her own pace.

Bottom line: I think I'm ready to recovery as a couple and give my W the support and emotional maturity she needs so that we can begin recovery as a couple. But, she doesn't think I am. Perhaps only time will solve this, but some comments she has makes me think she is looking for more from me than just time.

I am trying to strengthen my outlet of family/friends whereby I can get my emotional needs met, but two of my most important needs (affection and sex) cannot be met by anyone other than my W and one of my other important needs (appreciation) cannot be met at work. So, it is a challenge. BUT - my W is not getting all of her emotional needs met either - there are some she will not let me meet even though it is important to her (e.g., affection). She is managing even though I'm sure it is difficult for her. So can I as long as I can reach out to MB, friends and family.

Hello everyone...

We had a pretty good weekend. On Friday night, my W asked if she could be affectionate with me, and that started a weekend of sharing affection at various times. It was very nice to lay next to my W, holding her and feeling her hold me. It was nice to have some affection in our relationship. I hope that it was nice for her too and that she wasn't doing this only because she feels pressure from me.

This has opened up two avenues that I want to discuss. The first, I'm not sure of the best thing to do, so any help would be appreciated. We have a boundary in place that she must initiate all physical contact (i.e., I cannot just reach out and hold her hand, or lay next to her, or massage her back nor can I ask her if I can do any of those things). This is an important boundary for her safety because of how I have violated her space before and I am trying to respect it. I have no problem at all respecting it when it is clear to me that is the boundary she wants in place, but there are times (like this weekend) when I am unsure if that is the boundary she still wants in place. For example, on Saturday morning I told her there was something I wanted to ask her but that it would violate the boundary we have in place and she said to go ahead and ask, which I did and was positively received. But, I felt bad about that the rest of the weekend and avoided asking her anything else that would violate the boundary. But - I think that she was open to this and it was welcome on some level. And what I did with this internally was not healthy. Instead of asking her if we can talk about our boundaries, I instead felt myself wanting to be more affectionate with her and hoping that she would ask me to be more affectionate (e.g., yesterday we were on a long drive and I so wanted to reach out and hold her hand while we were driving and internally because of the confusion on this, I was conflicted didn't process it well). What should I do? After writing this, it seems obvious that I should ask her to have a conversation about boundaries. My fear however, is that this alone is not really respecting what we have previously discussed and I don't want to pressure her if she is not ready. But - and this is where I'm leaning now - it is better to bring it up once and talk about it and have the matter clearly defined for a while than it is to have this unknowing insecurity that can help breed small instances of conflict and violations.

The other thing I am struggling with is anxiety over sex. This will take some discussion with the group to put some flesh on this, so please jump in. Being affectionate with her made me aware that there will be a time where she may want to have sex with me. I'm afraid of that moment. Right now, I don't want to have sex with her. Not because I don't want to have sex with her (I find her incredibly attractive and am definitely aroused by her) but because I don't think we are ready as a couple. In the past we have really built up a pattern where a little affection meant I was pushing for sex. This was bad. It created an environment where she didn't feel comfortable being affectionate because it automatically translated into pressure for sex. My hope - what I really would like to see happen - is to have lots and lots of sex-less affection. To create an environment where affection without sex is the norm. Where affection without any hint or pressure of sex is the norm. Only then, only when we have a solid base of affection, do I think we are ready for sex. I'm anxious about how quickly she is going to want sex and, more importantly, how to deal with it if she does. This, by the way, is a very different mind set than I have ever had in our relationship (except perhaps when we first started dating many years ago). I think (but challenge if you disagree) that this is healthy. Any thoughts?

I typed up a long post yesterday morning following up from my post on Tuesday AM, but somehow I deleted the whole thing (it involved the esc button - but that's all I know for sure) before it was posted. So....

I am going to re-convey what is going on.

I decided to ask W whether our existing boundaries are still in place and she said yes. In other words, she is the only one who can initiate physical affection of any sort. I am not permitted to touch her or ask her if it is ok to be physically affectionate. This clears up the confusion I was self-creating, which is very helpful. But - it depressed me. I went to bed Tuesday PM and woke up Wednesday AM feeling pretty depressed. My W, although gracious about it, was even frustrated that I had even brought the whole subject up. She really is operating in an environment where she wants absolutely zero discussion about us at all. I need to respect that or I am just withdrawing love units ever time.

Anyway - the depression. As yesterday wore on, I came out of it. I'm no longer depressed. It sucks that I am not permitted to reach out and hold my W's hand or walk up behind her and put my arm around her. But this is my creation and I need to live with it. Positive - even when depressed, I was not angry at W or upset. I was simply depressed. Dangerous - because when like that I pull away and get quiet and withdrawn. The goal is to avoid that in the future. I'm working on it.

Quick thought: when depressed, I even had a reaction that I am not emotionally mature enough to be in an adult relationship - my W is right! After all, why would I have that reaction just because I cannot initiate physical affection? This one is still with me.

The bigger thing that happened on Tues was that I had individual counseling. Toward the end of the session he made a completely unsolicited comment that I cannot be "in jail" forever and I need to get out of jail eventually (he implied soon) or I am going to become emotionally unstable and perhaps even act out. I reacted quite strongly: I told him that my W has not put me in jail and that the pain I have caused, and continue to cause at times, is very real for my W and his expectations are out of whack. I stand by that. But, here is where things are a bit creepy. Last week I had a long conversation with a friend of mine that I haven't spoken to in quite a while and during it he asked if my W was "punishing" me. I told him no, there is no punishment, just recovery and trying to heal. He accepted that. But, both of their comments had the same theme. This could be for a few reasons: (i) my friend and counselor, and perhaps most of society as a whole, is out of whack with expectations regarding healing from long-term infidelity of this type (likely); (ii) I'm conveying some sense of "life is unfair and my W is hurting me on purpose" when discussing our situation with others (possible, perhaps even likely, although I don't really think like that when processing internally and I really try not to convey that when talking); (iii) I really have internalized (another word my counselor used) this site and my W's emotions too much and lost site of a proper balance (unlikely). Thoughts appreciated.

But, this encounter with my counselor makes me realize, quite firmly, that I need to sever my relationship with him. But, and this is where I need your help, I'm not sure what, if anything, I should replace him with. My W is adamant that I cannot stop going to him without having a replacement (she feels I am too immature (to continue?) to grow without being challenged in some fashion) even though she generally feels that my counselor is worthless. 12-step would be an option, perhaps, but there are serious roadblocks. There are no SLAA meetings in the area. The only general recovery program meets at a very inconvenient time for our family (during co-parenting time in the evenings). And, W is uncomfortable with me going to a group session that has people of the opposite gender there. Another alternative is to find a new counselor, but it feels so hit or miss - so many of them are not pro-marriage in the marriagebuilders way (I'm not even sure one exists in our area). I have this site, but because our situation is different than the norm, there is, in all honesty, not a very large community of people that can relate or have insight for me. (This is not to minimize those that do post on my thread - they are very helpful.) But - I think my W feels I need more than this. I don't really have the type of relationship with my family that I feel comfortable having these conversations with them and I'm pretty sure that they would echo my counselor and friend anyway. So - any thoughts? I am convinced that I have moved beyond where my counselor is and need more - but what?

Quick thought - perhaps this is unavoidable. When in a friendship or counseling situation the person is looking out for the best interest of the individual, which can be short-sighted and not recognize, at times, that happiness involves the "other." When they see pain involving the "other" they can get to a point where the only way to stop the pain is to sever the ties with the other. If this is unavoidable, perhaps I should just accept the comments as being unavoidable and ignore them. That is also a possibility.

Bye for now - my fingers hurt.

If you are looking for a solution to the addiction, then Patrick Carnes or Recoverynation should be your focus for treatment.

Is your wife in an anon program?

Because it sounds like you've set her up to run your program, rather than you run it. It's not a healthy relationship dynamic and has her in a parental role of doling out privileges rather than being able to just relax in the relationship. Her guard has to be up instead of yours.

Not reasonable. And not a vehicle for a lasting relationship.

kaylaandy:

You raise all sorts of interesting questions.  Recoverynation, and its program, has been the focus of my recovery from sex addiction.  I swear by its methods.  I followed the program with a passion and have integrated it into my daily life.  I am a firm believer in it and believe it has given me the tools to live a healthy life - a life without addiction.  When I find myself getting out of balance, I believe I have the tools to regain my balance.  It is in this context that I first started thinking about stopping my individual counseling.  The whole reason I started counseling was before RN and the focus was on my addiction.  But times have changed.  There is no clear focus anymore to my counseling.  We focused on building family relationships for a while (and still are to some degree), which is part of what I envision for living a healthy life, but there is no clear focus with counseling any more.  Much of each session is just me talking about what has happened with my W recently. 

This is why I decided to stop counseling a number of weeks ago.  It was telling my W that I wanted to stop counseling that started the whole process of her telling me that she is not comfortable with that - that she feels I need something else to replace it with.  So - it is my desire to be sensitive to my wife's emotions in this whole thing that is prompting me to do this deep search to find a replacement.  I don't think I need one.  I believe I have the tools to manage my life.  I believe that I have the resources to turn to when needed (RN, this site, and hopefully someday my family).  But - I am in a marriage.  I have empathy for what my W is going through on her own level.  I cannot just ignore her feelings on this.  If she wants me to do something, then I need to find something.  So, my goal was not to put my wife in charge of my recovery or growth but to be sensitive to where she is.  Unfortuantely, this sensitivity has put her in more control.  It seems you are saying that is a bad thing.  How do I balance the sensitivity for my wife's position with my own control of my own recovery?

As far as my W being in anon, no she is not.  Nor does she see an individual counselor (our marriage counselor pushed her on this on more than one occassion before we stopped couples counseling).  She does post on MB occassionally.  My W has told me that she just wants to live life.  She doesn't want to work on us, or have this be an issue in her life.  She just wants to be.  And yet - when I try to just be, to take control of my life (like stopping counseling) she is not comfortable with that.  I really feel trapped sometimes.

Sorry to ramble.

Do you have access to sex addiction therapists?

SAA has phone meetings now.

FWIW, right now, I'm triggering big time about my husband's behavior. I don't want to be touched by him at all. And this is wilth him being sober for 2 years. I think, this is part of the territory.

Hi Painfulgrowth,

I can relate to what you are saying about your friends telling you that you are "in Jail" or something to that affect.

A lot of the people I talk to seem to dismiss my role of viewing P and MB in my marriage and that it is no big deal and that I am punishing myself by focusing on my role in this situation.

But I know how much I hurt my wife by viewing the sludge instead of communicating with my wife in a healthy way and loving her.

I don't know how to make other people understand the pain that a husband can cause his wife by viewing porn. The only ones who seem to be convincing are the women themselves who have been the wives of men with this problem.

Well, once again everyone, I owe you big thanks for taking the time out of your day to share and offer your perspective.

inrecoverynow - your idea of looking at online/telephone meetings made me do another search for meetings. I discovered something I didn't expect. For some reason the only recovery groups I thought were SLAA (sex & love addicts anon). So, whenever I looked for meetings I specifically limited my searches to SLAA. Sometimes, thinking you know something can be dangerous. This is one example. SLAA is by no means the only 12 step group focused on sex addiction! There was SAA (Sex Addicts Anon). There was SCA (Sexual Compulsives Anon). There was SRA (Sexual Recovery Anon). And finally, there was SA (Sexaholics Anon). I found that SA actually has a meeting in my area whose time, while not perfect, just might work! I was amazed. My own knowledge of SLAA blinded me to other possibilities. So, I am seriously considering going to an SA meeting.

I do have one general reservation regarding SA (or any of the 12 step programs) is that I am somewhat philosophically opposed to the methodology. I very much believe in the RecoveryNation model, that a healthy life shouldn't need constant group meetings or turning yourself over to a higher power to maintain control of your life. There is something that feels suppressive and controlling about it, like you are not really dealing with the root cause. But - all of that aside. The major problem with RecoveryNation is that I don't have an individual person in my life who is there to keep me honest. Someone that will check in with me on a weekly basis to make sure I am not deceiving myself about my emotional balance. I am hoping that through SA I can find someone like this locally. I believe I am comfortable and confident enough in my recovery I can utilize what is proper in SA for my recovery without needing to throw away the foundation I am currently working with due to RecoveryNation. That said - I do recognize that there are areas of my sexuality I still have a ways to go on. Even though I am not acting out in the major ways I was before, I still find myself objectifying my W and treating her in a ways that I do not like (a major incident happened a few months ago and I am still horrified by it). So - this is exciting!

Thanks Erichh - you are right. I think that is the nature of friend/counselors. But, I am confident enough in who I am and where I am that I recognize they are wrong. I can weed out that information and take what is good.

We had another! good weekend. Highlights - date night on Saturday; frequent affection; relatively low stress with the kids; good conversation (including about my potential visit to SA); and even sexual affection.

I'm not really sure what else to say - I think I'm still processing. Sex was difficult. The first attempt was abortive - I felt like a kid, somewhat emasculated and I left her very unsatisfied. But I was honest and she was very gracious. The second attempt was much better, but I'm not sure what I'm feeling. In the past for me, sex itself was the end. That was the high that produced the emotional stability. I'm not like that now. In fact, even before having sex, there were times I felt very close to my W, much closer than I have felt in a long time. After, I just wanted to hold her and be close to her. So, I'm not sure what I'm feeling right now. Closer. A bit happy that this is a sign we are moving in the right direction, although I don't have a strong need for signs right now. A bit empty perhaps. Sad, I guess, that the feelings I have for her are not the same feelings she has for me. I guess we are bringing a different set of emotional needs to the lovemaking - I'm closer, more lovey feeling, etc. She is not. But I'm ok with that - we are in different places. I guess what matters is that she felt comfortable enough in my presence to take this risk. And I recognize it was a big risk for her. That means a lot to me.

I hope - really, really, really, hope - that this doesn't mean our days of affection are numbered. That we can continue the affection without the sexual tension. Just like we were doing before this. My fingers are crossed.

I have a few other thoughts I want to get out, but I'm running out of time so they will have to wait for another day.

I'm glad that you had a great weekend. In my opinion it sounds like your wife is possibly beginning to trust you again or at least she is willing to try to meet your ENs. Keep up the good work and keep sticking to your recovery!

So far this week, we have continued to be physically affectionate. I'm not sure what she's feeling, but I am feeling closer to her for the past week or so than I have in a long time. That is nice. Very nice. But - and this is where I have to be very careful - we have had periods like this in the past and somehow or another I seem to mess it up. I read into the situation what isn't there and end up crossing a boundary or I become complacent thinking that she has crossed some magic threshold (see how I was putting the burden on her?) and that we are out of the woods. So, I am trying to be more cautious, to just enjoy what we have now without stressing about what it might be tomorrow. That doesn't mean that I can't worry about what tomorrow will be like - I still have a responsibility to live a healthy life, to not cross my W's boundaries, to try and meet her emotional needs in some fashion, etc. For example, last night when we were sitting next to each other on the couch, I almost crossed a boundary. I almost reached my hand out to touch her - I know we have a boundary in place, and yet I was convincing myself that she wanted me to touch her. I didn't, but my desire to reach out to her to satisfy my desire to be with her is clearly a sign of how unhealthy I am in my interactions with her. I must be constantly vigilant that I don't cross these boundaries. Right now the ball is in her court - if she wants affection she asks for it. Hopefully in time we will get to a place where she is comfortable with me taking a few risks to initiate affection, but that is a future thing. It is that stuff I am trying not to focus on. We are where we are and I am trying to work within the context we currently have in place. Right now - I think it is working.

Now that I'm done with that ramble, one change that has taken place with me recently is that I am not relying on her as much to determine our daily activities. I think this is tied into kaylaandy's comments regarding being dependent upon my W for my recovery. I took that a step further and realized that I was being dependent upon her for where we are in our relationship. I was trying to read her cues and do what she did/did not want to do. Whatever I did, I tried not to upset the apple cart. I'm taking a different approach now. I'm trying to be creative in how we interact with each other - to think of new things and challenge our conventional ways of interacting. I may mess up on some occasions and at other times may slip into past patterns (e.g., the last few days have involved a lot of TV) but I think this is relatively healthy.