The hardest part about FILLING ENs is knowing what they are to begin with. Knowing might seem easy, and I understand that the philosophy is that it is the 'fillers' responsibility to find out just WHAT ENs need to be filled.

Sometimes, it just isn't that easy. Especially for men. I would say that if all women put filling SF and Admiration at the top of their 'to do' lists, 90% of men would be pretty darn happy. Not everyone... and not totally, but men are so simple, and relatively uniform, that even without knowing anything at all... you could do pretty well with just focusing on these two. And not only that... they are segmentable. What I mean is that You tell us "You look really good this morning honey. Growl......." And that pretty much does us until we get home. You say "I just wanted to say once again, how much I love you and appreciate how hard you work to keep us safe and secure. Doesn't daddy do a great job working for all of us?" Say that to us and our kids and you have put us on top of the world. AND our children see how to be respectful and loving as well. Boom... 20 seconds out of the day and your man is flying high. Sex for 30 minutes at YOUR request and your man is thinking about curing cancer and building that rocketship to Mars.

Women, on the other hand... are MUCH more difficult for MEN to understand. Not only do they have many MORE ENs which need to be addressed, but they need them addressed in ever changing ratios. Today there might be a MUCH bigger need for cleaning the house where yesterday the need of the day was listening which then changed to Cuddling and affection. Tomorrow the guy must wake up and determine if cleaning is on the agenda as a big need today or is it now putting in a few more hours at work to increase the Finances a bit. Increasing the finances might always be a priority, but you can get in big trouble if you come home late every night and don't recognize the 'clean the house vs sit and listen to me vs take the kids I need a break' conundrum and make an incorrect assumption. It is not something which we can 'address' in a given time period... say 30 min and 20 sec. We gotta try to be 'on' all the time, because we never know when we aren't doing something YOU wish we were doing.

Ladies... this is what it feels to be a man. We not only have several targets to hit... they are always moving and varying in importance. You tell us we are a stud, you are proud of our working so hard, and take us to the bedroom. Pretty much you have hit most every one of our targets dead center MOST of the time. WE simply don't have that 'go to' deposit with you all, which keeps us in the hunt.

I agree that SF and admiration are, on the surface, pretty direct and self-explanatory needs. On the other hand, at least in my marriage, they can be a moving target as well. Some days a "I'm so proud of you honey" is just what the doctor ordered. Other days, that same sentence will be met with a snarl because he was looking for something else. That in itself, is not an issue. The issue is when he gets angry and uses a disrespectful tone of voice to convey he really wished I'd said something else. I don't know HOW to communicate that to him without causing another argument in the process.

Like I said... 90%.

Not everyone... not everytime.

But for the most part, still worth the bet by far.

Can't, I understand that it's easier to think this way, that it's impossible. than to think that yes, there is some work ahead of you. Have you read the Why Women Leave Men article? You could plan your week out with your W in better times, takes 5-10 minutes a week Sundays, and then you have a whole week of how you each meet your partner's needs ways that you each are enthusiastic about, too.

I absolutely DON'T think it is impossible, just more difficult for how we are wired. Women tend to want to 'talk' about a problem... just have us hear the issue. Men are wired to 'fix' problems, which makes the need to simply listen VERY DIFFICULT, because that is not how we are wired. When MEN say something, and women are simply 'listening' we feel ignored, because we are looking to solve the problem, while women are merely doing what 'they want' which is listen.

I DON'T think it is impossible NOR easier to think this way. I think it is just the WAY it is. Men are forthright and simple, for the MOST PART. There are exceptions to every rule. But given a very few variances, most run straight down the middle. Women tend to be less clear TO MEN, seemingly not saying what they want and not doing what they feel. This is a MAN'S perception, because of our previously stated tenant to 'run down the middle'. We can WORK at being more perceptive. Women can WORK at being more forthright. We can WORK at listening with our mouths shut. Women can WORK at understanding that it is NOT how we are designed.

I thank you for all the recommendations. I really do. I have tried all these for 2 1/2 years. I have tried planning. She is opposed to the thought of 15 hours a week together or 'ensuring any specific amount', much less taking time to try to plan it out. WHERE DO YOU GO WITH THAT? I understand the Plan A/B parts and have done everything in MY power to impliment them, but the thing is, they don't work if you have no idea what is a good PLAN A item to begin with. When you ask your wife, point blank at a 'good time', what things can I do to make you feel better about me? And you get a blank look back and no answer?

I feel that my biggest problem fulfilling her ENs is the fact that SHE doesn't even know what she wants for ENs. And she has been unwilling to even read a book to perhaps learn to put into words, her desires and wishes. Our counselor has also said that she has an extremely difficult time understanding what she wants, much less explain it to me in a manner that I can act upon it.

Like I said in my main post...

Marriage requires two people with a similar/common vision working towards a similar/common goal. I am not at all convinced that my wife and I have that going for us.

CFIO, where I went with that was accepting that my H wasn't enthusiastic about planning that time together. So, since I was enthusiastic, I planned UA and FC time, an hour or two a few days of the week, and the weekends. And then I showed up, whether H did or not. LA suggested this to me, and I feared it would make me feel more ignored, now I planned all this time, stuff H liked, too and he still wouldn't want to go. But that wasn't what happened. After the first two times, which the kind folks here talked me down from, I didn't feel ignored. I felt special, that I was taking time to do these things, alone for the UA stuff, and with the kids for the FC stuff.

Edited to add: and he does show up now, a lot. I stand at the calendar when he's in the family room, on a comercial, and I say, Monday I planned to take the kids for a bike ride around the neighborhood, how would you feel about that?

Interesting.

SF is not a top EN for me. And what I hear you saying here is that SF is the top EN, period. That other EN's just aren't as important and shouldn't affect SF in anyway.

I personally need connection outside of the bedroom in order to desire connection inside the bedroom. And it has nothing to do with negative feelings based on learned negative attitudes.

That's just the way I'm wired.

I didn't get that from the post you quoted. I think it is saying that too many women think (have been conditioned to think) the sex is almost purely for the man. I think she is saying that when women 'break free' of this conditioning and artificial way of thinking, they can realize that SEX can be just as fulfilling for them as for men.


And most men need adequate SF in order to feel that there is a reason and to form a basis for desire to provide the 'outside' the bedroom connection. That is just how we are wired.

Catch 22

>When MEN say something, and women are simply 'listening' we feel ignored, because we are looking to solve the problem, while women are merely doing what 'they want' which is listen.

Oh, wow, you sure meet different guys than I do! Maybe it's different when you're a guy talking to a guy rather than a guy talking to a gal, but as far as I know, whenever I try to insert advice or a solution or an opinion into a conversation with a man, things go south really quickly. If I stay in the 'listen, repeat, empathize, don't tell them what I think would help' routine, though, most conversations end up peaceful fulfilling.

From what I've experienced, neither men nor women like to GET unsolicited advice. Maybe it's true men like to GIVE it a little more, but I know quite some 'fixer' women too and it's not earning them any brownie points with the men in their lives. And no, not every conversation a man starts apparently solicits advice.

I get that...and can see it in my H. I am, however, wired just the opposite.

And although SF can be fulfilling for me, it still is not my top EN. And when my top EN's aren't being met, then I just don't desire it. Which, I imagine, is comparable to someone whose top EN of SF isn't being met and has little desire to meet the EN's of his/her spouse.

Putting aside negative feelings regarding SF isn't going to shoot SF to the top of my list...but meeting my EN's just might.

WD... you are right... and I didn't explain myself quite well enough. What I was trying to say, is that if a man is 'talking' about something, usually we are trying to fix it. Yes, you are correct, we might not be wanting too much advice.

I think that usually, if men are talking, they are 'fixing'. If women are talking... they are talking. Men don't get that difference very well.

But you are correct, last thing I want is my wife to tell me to 'do' something. So... touche

Yeah, men fix THEIR OWN problems by talking at women who'll be a sounding board.

Women do the same, though. Maybe it doesn't seem the same, because women may try to fix their internal state (because it's better to feel good about yourself in a situation first and do battle with the situation in a strong, competent mindset, they try to fix their emotions first) and men may spend more time trying to fix the external state (because it's better to have things be right, since then the feelings of wrongness will no longer appear, they try to fix the situation first).

Problems arise when men try to fix WOMEN's problems, while the women are trying to fix their own problems by talking at men they hope will be sounding boards. . . (and vice versa, like you say.)

Women aren't 'just talking,' we're also fixing stuff.

It's just that you can't see that, because you only hear what women say, not WHY they say it.

All i can say on this subject is my FWH used to tell me all the time how IMPORTANT SF was to him. I had always tried to be sure that i met that EN until my ENIL started living with us.

That is when i started building resentment and because of that SF was the furthest thing from my mind.

After my FWHs A, he became very ill and we thought he was not going to live. So we had to work on him getting better all the while trying to deal with his infidelity too.

When he finally got better he did not seem as interested in SF as he had in the past. At first that really bothered me because of course i was blaming it on the A until he finally told me.

It just is not that IMPORTANT to me anymore and it really never should have been. As long as we have each other and we are alive everything else is just icing on the cake.

A lot of these reponses have been about meeting her needs to increase SF. I don't know that one will always lead to the other. Imagine a situation where the H really worked hard to make sure the W's needs were 100% met. She was as happy as she could be. Would it necessarily follow that her sexual desire would also increase? Would she be craving it like her H?

I think that having her needs met means she will more likely be willing to provide SF, but not necessarily have an increase in desire.

For many people, SF is a primary desire that must be met. If there is no sexual release, they will get crabby and it will affect their mental outlook. There is no substitute.

For others, SF is just part of a category of fun things to do. These things could also include vacations, boating, being with friends, seeing movies, or whatever. For these people, as long as they are doing activities from their "fun things", they are satisified.

For partners in the latter category, the best I think you can hope for is that they are willing participants. I don't think you can really expect someone to consciously increase their desire if it's not there. But they may eagerly go along with it to make you happy.

Unfortunately, a lot of women have the attitude that if they don't desire it, they're not going to do it. They think, "If it's important enough to him, he'll make me desire it and then I'll do it." If she's not in a disfunctional relationship and her needs are being met and she still doesn't have desire, then maybe it's not something that he can change in her. It's up to her to find ways to increase her desire or, at a minimum, be more willing to go along even though she doesn't have the desire. Note: This assumes she is in a healthy relationship. If the relationship has problems, fix those first.

What a great post...one question though...

What do I do if I (as the W) identify more with the importance of SF than my husband does?

For example, in the post..."But once you realize that your man is actually saying, “This is essential to my feeling of being loved and desired by you, and is critical to counteract my stress, my fears, and my loneliness,” ...that's EXACTLY how I feel!

I have almost always made the advances in our relationship and sex is very important to me so when he rejects me (he says there are no attractiveness problems) it is SO VERY painful...I just stopped trying. He says that he needs to feel loved and he's not interested in sex unless his needs are met...I just read up on EN to find out what he meant exactly since he couldn't articulate what he meant by "his needs" which was very helpful.

I think we've got some serious role reversal going on.

CFIO

Might as well give up trying to explain it to the females in here that refuse to listen. I tried earlier to state that most men really do want to do what's right and we try to meet our wives ENs. I mentioned something about that we are inept at it and kind of got hammered about that being an excuse. Maybe your explanation of the ENs always changing is a little more accurate than my "excuse" of men being inept. The result is still the same, guys try desperately to meet some vague, ever changing emotional need that their wives may have to the point of exhaustion. Women, on the other hand, usually have 1 or 2 very clear needs to meet in their husbands but are able to fully justify not doing so based on how they feel at the moment. (of course, there are exceptions to everything, but in real life and on this board, this is a very common pattern)

Point this out and you get hammered.

Bring on the 2x4's ladies, we're used to them by now...

JCat, I've always liked your posts, and I was really surprised that you called mine a 2x4. I came here because my LBs were half of what contributed to an awful marriage, and by working on my 50%, our house is relatively a lot more peaceful now. So if I'm still unknowingly handing out 2x4s, wow, I'm glad you brought it to my attention. So I ask, where was the 2x4 part?

Reading it back, I catch that it was a DJ to think that it was likely that CFIO was incorrect that it is impossible to meet his specific W's ENs. Sorry, CFIO. I think I usually ask, instead of assuming.


Can I get a do-over? CFIO, from reading your posts, I am thinking it would be good to let you know that this is a common pattern, so you can decide if it applies to your situation. Especially if it is something that you still want to recover.

And then in the article Dr. H goes on to how to do this, with the Man's House analogy, inviting the woman into all the rooms of a man's house, by using POJA, and explains the most common complaint with POJA and how to overcome that.

Is this something that sounds relevant to you, something that you'd be enthusiastic about trying?

Ears,

I don't always pay attention to the poster when reading, so I ma not sure who originally 2x4'd me. It's okay if it was you. I know I need them sometimes

I think the point both CFIO and I are trying to make is what do you do when you do all you can do/know how to do and still no results. How do you meet ENs when your spouse keeps changing what they are. And then the moment you don't meet a need you get blasted by her verbally (complaints) or emotionally (she quits caring whether or not she meets yours.

Maybe I generalize this too much, but I think this is very common by the comments I see on here. A man can do the dishes fro two weeks straight but if he forgets the garbage one night he "never helps around here." He can listen patiently while his wife talks for 30 minutes but if she doesn't like his responses he "never listens to me." He can give her 50 non-sexual hugs a day but if he cops a feel during number 51 "that's all he ever thinks about." He can ask her what she's thinking/feeling but if he doesn't whole-heartedly agree with those feelings he is "insensitive." The list goes on and on and on...

It seems good guys that truly try can't seem to win because the rules and goals always change. Even if we get it right one day, we are back at square one the next day. It's like an ever changing obstacle course that you have to get everything just right in just the right order in order to win the prize. Women on the other hand, have it made. Guys are extremely simple with 2 or 3 basic needs that rarely change. Meet those and your man will move heaven and earth to make you happy. I guess in some ways I am jealous. Women have SO much power to get what they want. Furthermore, that power is so easy to see and recognize. Why don't they use it rather then nag and complain? As a guy, I just don't get it.

I just think it is the different genders, we don't get you and you don't get us.

Fairly easy to understand. Unfortunately, in many cases the understanding is not of much practical use.

Reasons that women might not be interesting in using their "power" include:

1. They were raised to believe sex is evil and wrong, and they cannot learn to see it as beautiful within the context of marriage.
2. They see the use of sex as part of a reciprocal exchange with their husband as demeaning, since it feels like they are prostituting themselves.
3. They lose respect for their husband if he becomes more compliant after sex, since a strong man would not allow himself to be so easily manipulated.
4. They lose respect for themselves if they consent to sex when they are not "in the mood", because doing so perpetuates the male dominated sexist hierarchy.
5. Sex with a long term partner involves making oneself emotionally vulnerable, and many women (and men) are unprepared to handle that level of emotional intimacy.
6. Many women have been sexually abused, and sex within the context of an emotionally intimate relationship sets off triggers.

Most of these reasons can be overcome only by the woman changing her perspective. Few women will choose to do the work required to change their perspective while "under duress" from their partner's pressure.

The conundrum is that most "nice guys" would be willing to be "manipulated" by their wife, but only if they felt comfortable that she would use her power "for" him and not against" him. Unfortunately, all the good qualities that make a woman unlikely to use her sexuality "against" her husband tend to make it more likely that she would be uncomfortable using it "for" him.

So in a wierd way, it isn't SOOOO bad that one's wife is uncomfortable using her "power". While not as fabulous as if she would use it to energize you, it isn't as bad as if she used it to undermine you. Keep your eye on the silver lining.