I am struggling as my husband's old lover (prior to our marriage) has now returned to work where my husband works. Originally he wanted to remains friends with her. When she saw us when we were dating she would make conversation with him and also be quite affectionate with him in front of me. It felt terrible. I am living in a very small town where my husband has had not only a past lover, but an ex-wife (we live in the house where she home birthed there two children), a woman who he dated who he felt he was falling in love with and also a love interest who unknowingly I became friends with. He did not disclose information to me fully and information has been revealed in piece meal to me. Although not recently in the past he has also not fully told me the truth about past relationships. Although he first told me he was ignoring his old lover he now told me he see her three times a week but that they just say "hi". I do not feel comfortable with their getting more comfortable so that she will approach us in public again ignoring me while rubbing his back. He assures me that will not happen and if it does that he will ask her not to touch him. My father had an affair when I was a child and I have had more than one boyfriend who has been unfaithful so I am sensitive to this. I am worried about an emotional affair developing which my husband says he will not allow. I need some support and help this matter. This is the first time in my life I live in the same town where a partner has old lovers that can easily be bumped into. I absolutely hate it. I have a knot in my stomach when we bump into them and worry about the potential of emotional affairs. I am working on the home course with my husband and am trying to fill his emotional needs and identify love busters but I still feel insecure and afraid. I need some help.

Should this be posted in a different discussion topic?

It does have a fair chance of turning into an emotional affair, but if you're fixing your relationship, it is supposed to be strong enough to weather that. However, the fact that he doesn't disclose things is disconcerting.

Can you move? Get new jobs?

Although he acknowledges that he realizes it would be easier for me if we were to move (I am not from here so there are no old relationships from my past), I truly don't think when push came to shove that he would be actually willing to do so. Additionally we are in such a rural area that unless we moved there really wouldn't be another comparable job.

Here is another different example:

The other night my girlfriend "A" , who my husband finally admitted that he had an attraction to years ago and had even considered having a relationship with is quite attractive. Although she is now married, if my husband is performing ( a side job) he has asked on numerous occasions if "A" (not mentioning her husband ) will also be coming. He says he does so because she is a friend of mine but He does not ask about any other women I know down here but her.

Anyway, my girlfriend "A" told a story about how she was walking hand in hand with her husband "B" and a married man who was walking with them "C" slipped his hand in hers. She did not know what to do. The OM "C" then asked his wife "D" to help so the OW "D" then took the hand of my girlfriend's husband "B". I brainstormed with my girlfriend "A" what she could do but she seemed so uncomfortable about the whole thing I suggested maybe her husband "B" could say something. She "A" did not seem to think he "B" would as my husband's ex-lover "Z" also ignores my girlfriend "A" and talks mostly to her husband "B" and also strokes his "B" back when she "Z" talks to him "B" as well (although they "B" and "Z" were not lovers in the past.)

So I encouraged my girlfriend's husband "B" to hold his wife's "A" hand and then said as I am reaching out to take her hand, if I take her hand "A" and she "A" is having trouble taking care of herself what could you say to help? My husband is watching this and offers to be the one to hold my girlfriends hand explaining that he thinks it would be more helpful for my girlfriends husband "B" if a man were holding his wife's "A" hand for this skit or example rather than me as a woman - this is same friend "A" that my husband and I have had numerous conversations about where I explain that his behavior seems to indicate an attraction there which he denies. Then I explain that irregardless it withdraws love units and does not make me feel good. He explains that they have been friends as they both work at the same school and I am taking it the wrong way. I asked him what he thought Dr. Harley would say and he told me to post about it.

I would never offer to hold the hand of any woman's husband. When my girlfriend "A" in the past had asked me once to see how warm her husband's "B" hand was I said I believed her and that she "A" should hold her husband's "B" hand, not me. I did it in a light hearted way but I made my point.

Thought about the hand holding scenario?

OK. I could NO WAY follow all that A,B,C,D,Z stuff, so I can't answer specifically, but that's irrelevant. What I CAN say is that the people involved here need to learn about grown-up, married BOUNDARIES and protecting their marriages!

NOBODY should be holding ANYBODY'S hand, EVER, except their own spouse's! ESPECIALLY when they've been told how hurtful it is. Says he's willing to do things that hurt you because HE considers it "harmless." YOU WILL JUST HAVE TO SUCK IT UP, HONEY, because I KNOW WHAT'S BEST.

Sounds like quite an incestuous, and very dangerous little group in your town. I'd get the **** out before REALLY bad things happen.

You say you doubt your H would be willing.

Freight train coming. Get ready for heartache.

Right Here Waiting

Stand up for yourself. You don't need to be involved in this crap. Flatly refuse.

I do agree with you about this community being loose. There is an expression down here; "You don't use your relationship, you loose your place in line." What it points to the revolving door of "changing partners" down here. My husband has a house that is already paid for and a well established business down here so I would like to see if we can find a way to protect our marriage and still remain here.

What I am try to remember is that there is a lot of drinking down here. Thankfully, my husband has stopped drinking so that brings me some comfort. I also can try to focus on building the skills of meeting each other's emotional needs as a way strengthening our marriage. But I also want to pay attention and ask for what I need as a thoughtful request and not a selfish demand. My husband listened to my girlfriend tell a story about being in a commercial and he then said something like I would buy lots of whatever you were selling. When we talk about it he sees it as being supportive to her and feels he would say something similar if her husband told the story. I think he would say something similar if her husband told the story to show support but not in that way. When I asked my girlfriend she said that she thought it would be a very low level flirtation if he used the word "I" rather than "we" referring to my husband and I. She is not threatened as she has a strong marriage and is close to me. My husband and I already had a big conflict over this as we have two different perspectives. So I think my thoughtful request will be if you want to compliment or support a woman (attractive as she is or otherwise) can you make the statement from 'us' and a "we" rather than an "I'. Does that seem like an effective thoughtful request?

Yes, but it doesn't really address the real problem. He needs more than this to get out of his flirting mindset, but HE'S got to want to.

Do you have any real reason to believe he WANTS to? That he really understands that it upsets you? Or is he convinced it is "harmless?"

Fellow NewYorker,
It sounds like you both need to work on your M. There is a lack of trust and EN not being met. Has your H shown interest in using the tools here? NewYorker I can tell you for many years my H needed to flirt and needed attention from females. It all had to do with feeding the ego. This led him to have a EA. He almost lost me and family. It took MC and tools here to help us out. He became totally committed to R and that is what kept me around. R has worked out well for us. I hope you don't end up in the same place prior to my DD.

GG

How did you handle and what did you do about your H need to flirt and needing the attention of females? Was he even aware of it?

Yes, there is some lack of trust. I don't know where the line is as to my personal and family of origin history of infidelity triggering my interpretation and reactions and what is actually his issues. At times it feels like I am just over sensitive? Other times not as if he is just in denial or socially dense. We are both committed to working on the relationship and are finding the home course both helpful and valuable. Because of our personal histories and values I think we are much less likely to have physical affairs but I can see how easy EM can be and also am quite clear on how harmful they can be. We are married under a year both previously divorced who are now entering into a blended family situation so it makes it a bit more emotionally complicated on many fronts.

Sorry, I haven't been on long enough. I got all the abbreviates except DD. Please explain. Thanks.

I think he does understand that is hurts me often after I tell him and sometimes even after he does something before I get a chance to mention it and he is very apologetic. He suggests that we avoid the people were is occurs but I think that it is a social awareness / boundary issue and we need to find a way to affirm and strength ourselves no matter who is around not avoid them as I think the issue will just come up again in another situation later on.

He does not see it as flirtatious. He sees it as being friendly and supportive. It did not seem to me from what I read so far that Dr. H. took a strong position on opposite gender friendships. He is clear about getting hyour needs met with hyour spouse but there seems no where in the book I can turn where it spells it out clearly: "No friendships with oppostie gender people", "Do not put your hands on anyone but your spouse or if you hug keep it short and be aware"

My husband is someone who would have liked to stay friends with his old lover who was blatantly disrespectful to me until I objected. He did not see it that way until I pointed it out multiple times. He is also someone that would probably enjoy having women friends where although I might enjoy having male friends (perhaps in part to balance his desire to have women friends?) but I understand quite well the risk of an emotional affair and do not want to take that risk.

To his credit he is working hard and did ask a different woman (not as attractive) who was always wanting to hug him and sometimes even rubbing his back to please stop that it was making him uncomfortable and also to please remember the name of his wife. She also barely acknowledged me before that. We now both shake hands with her. So we are making progress but it is jut not consistent and is really hard for me that he seems unable to apply the principles from one upset between us to the next situation.

NY,
I handled it like you at first. I thought I was being oversensitive and I honestly thought he would outgrow it. I didn't know how long or to what extent it would take to outgrow - hence the EA 17 years into our marriage. In my H case I think MLC (midlife crisis) pushed him into what he was already vulnerable to. Your H has be radiacally honest with himself. See Harley's article...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_honesty.html

MB principles is a process and it takes time and commitment. You both seem to have that.

GG

You're right to see that avoiding anyone with whom this occurs is pointless, because that isn't the problem. The problem is indeed a lack of boundaries. His own personal boundaries, and the boundaries he is willing (or not) to place around your marriage, to protect it.

Perhaps he doesn't see it as "flirtatious," but "friendly and supportive." Either he is a "pleaser," who is looking for approval (tell me, does he seek social approval from MEN?). Or perhaps he's deceiving you because he enjoys it, and is trying to convince you it's "harmless" so he won't have to give up the "feel good" he gets from doing it. Only you can know him well enough to make an educated guess here. You could ASK him, but unless he's looked into himself, he won't be able to answer you, because he won't know. This is something he must explore. I hope he does, because he is risking your love for him until he figures it out and comes to consider YOUR best interest along with his own.

Dr. Harley is very clear on the subject of opposite-sex friendships. If the spouse is uncomfortable with it, it has to go! I've read pretty much everything he's written, so I can't tell you which book this comes from, but he is adamant about it.

I regret that have not been on for a while. My husband still works with his ex-lover. I do not believe he would be unfaithful with her as she was not devoted to him and he ended up feeling so uncomfortable in the end he was the one to break it off. That was a couple of years ago. But he sees her every day and I bump into her at community events from time to time. Here is part of my problem. I still feel uncomfortable when I see her. I think it is in part because my husband is a people pleaser and seems to be more inclined to defer to and please women. Actually knowing his history, I can't hold him totally responsible as he was raised by a very controlling and domineering mother who trained him to please her and then he repeated that pattern by marrying a woman before me with the same qualities. And I know my childhood history and selecting of a couple of partners influenced me as I am hyper sensitive to infidelity. My therapist asked me if in his history has he ever been unfaithful. He never was physically. I don't think he was emotionally either but I am not sure if he rally has a full handle on what that means and so am uncertain about that. In my previous marriage, not knowing the emotional infidelity thing at that time, I was never physically unfaithful but I can see that I was emotionally unfaithful.

Here is my problem that I am ashamed about but I hope someone can help me or at least strugllged with the same thing at some time so I don't feel so ashamed and lost. Afte seeing this old lover of his, and there being other (not with her) instances of him not making good boundaries with women on and off, I found that last night when he was touching me and wanted to make love all I could see in my head was him doing the same things with his old lover. I had to stop being close to him. He asked, so I told him. These feeling have haunted me for a while but it was the worst last night as I never had to push him away becasue of it. I did not push him away phsycally but I told him to please stop touching me. He felt rejected and hurt. I understand. The feelings still linger with me and I am afraid will surface again for me.

I have this fantasy (hope?) if he were to make better boundaries with women it would not be so difficult for me. Example: My father-in-law is dying and we are there with his wife who is 21 years his senior so close to my husbands age. My husband will say to me when he is excited about having a banana in his pocket. He brings her up a banana as she asked for something to eat and has it in his pocket and then takes it out joking about the banana being in his pocket. It feels provocative to me. He then later to support her uses the word "Babe" which I think pet names should be used for one's spouse. So we have a blow up. He feels criticized and says he was just being supportive to her and that he was joking. I say I feel really uncomfortable. He then says something about having to monitor everything he says which makes me feel bad as he seems overwhelmed.

I was asked in the last response did I think the problem was lack of boundaries. I think "yes" with women. I do think that he is totally unaware that it is inappropriate the more that I watch him. So we get into big issues about different scenarios about once a week. He seems unable to apply what I think is the basic concept to the new scenario. So if I am sure he will not have a physical affair and he is with me so much of the time does even seem to have time for an emotional affair, why is this haunting me so much and what can I/we do so that I can have more inner peace. I don't want to blame him as I know I play a part but I am hurting and need to know where to go in Dr. Harley's work to address this. He hears it better from him then from me sometimes as he can experience from me as controlling or stifling.

and.. numerous other ex- and near-miss lovers of his are wandering around your small town where one spouse is seen as the person temporarily at the head of the queue for the other spouse's affections.

and...
How about this:

From here http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

It's lucky your spouse is receptive to MB. Many aren't. Also his actions in asking a woman to stop hugging / massaging him seemed like a good sign from here.

Have you read the articles that have been posted in this thread? Below is another one on instincts and habits. Every time your H acts a certain way he is withdrawing from the your love bank instead of makind deposits. This is why you are starting to withdraw from him. Until he understands this concept his behavior will not change. When you click on the link there are other articles on the left side that you should both read...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3250_habits.html

gg

Thank you all very much. I have read all of the links to the articles which were all read before but needed to be reminders AGAIN and AGAIN!

Can anyone direct me to the section where Dr. Harley talks about if the spouse is uncomfortable with an opposite gender friendship it should stop?

Thanks.

newyorkgirl,

Regarding the danger of opposite-gender friendships: I don't know if it's on the web site, but one place Dr. Harley talks about it is in the Love Buster book, Chapter 9, "Resolving Conflicts Over Friends and Relatives." Do you have that book? It's a must-read, for both of you.

Even worse, as you well know, when a spouse maintains contact (of ANY kind) with a former AFFAIR PARTNER, it keeps the betrayed one on hot coals 24/7, but the partner who cheated is not at all uncomfortable with it, tells her she "has nothing to worry about" and continues contact because HE believes there's nothing wrong with it. Meanwhile, she's dying inside.

...so, essentially,

THE ONE WHO HAD THE AFFAIR CONTINUES TO GAIN AT THE BETRAYED SPOUSE'S expense, long after the hell he's already put her through.

Thinks because it doesn't bother HIM, it shouldn't bother HER. What he doesn't want to see is that to maintain contact of ANY kind with a lover/ex-lover PROVES to her that he doesn't care about her feelings or respect her distress. SO OF COURSE SHE CAN'T TRUST HIM! She will just continue to suffer, and he will think it's HER problem, nothing to do with him. <sigh>

Can your husband not see how his independent behaviors callously dismiss your fears and result in your misery? Does he even understand that he's doing that? If he doesn't "get it," please send him here...we will explain what he can't seem to hear when you tell him.

If he refuses to adopt the POLICY of CARE and the POLICY of JOINT AGREEMENT to find a solution that works for BOTH of you, you will not escape a lifetime of this kind of pain. And you will end up divorced.