My suggestion would be to find a qualified counselor. Yours is giving you dreadful advice that will PREVENT your marital recovery. I hope you are not having to pay money for it.

See, this is information about YOUR LIFE to which you have a right to know. Your spouse is not qualified to decide what is good or not good for you. She is the rapist! Does the rapist get to decide what is good for his victim? Of course not!

So, my suggestion would be to take this article by Dr. Willard Harley, a clinical psychologist and author of Surviving an Affair to the "counselor" and explain that there will be no recovery unless HONESTY is the first step:

Dr. Willard Harley in Requirements for Recovery:

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

entire article here

I'm also a detail-oriented person.

I can tell you right now that your M has little chance of true recovery if your FWW is not open and honest with you. You see, it's not just about the details, but it's about the willingness of your FWW to discuss the things that you want to discuss. No willingness = no openness = no recovery.

My FWW was open with me about the details, but in her own way, by not answering questions fully and completely in the beginning. It prolonged our recovery a lot longer than it should have.

Mel, this is right on and something that the WS often wants to "overlook".

What is actually overlooked is that this creates INTIMACY, and if O&H is an EN for the BS, then it helps to fill the LB$ as well.

I wish FWS's would GET THIS and stop trying to make up their own rules about recovery.

I hope that more BSs can point out to a WS in a logical manner why disclosure is needed by them. Whether the BS gives their S Joseph's letter or their own version, the WS needs to understand why his refusal to give the details is mentally cruel. I can't remember the poster, but someone used the example of someone telling the WS that his child died. All he knows is that the child is dead and no one will tell him how, what happened, when, etc. I don't think any human being alive would be able to live with "Your child is dead and that's all you need to know."

I have yet to post my own tragedy but I thought that I should chime in.

For me, I needed to know everything. I got very lucky - I got in touch with OWBF, who as it turns is was mad as hell and wanted to ruin WH's life.

create a new gmail account. I use the calendar feature to get all the times and dates in order. a time line of sorts.

After WH and I had the big "heres everything that happened that I could remember" talk before V-day, I had this incredible feeling - I felt NORMAL. I finally had more pieces to the puzzle than he ever did.

Everything that symbolizes "us" to me is now tainted. It hurts like hell but I'm hoping that there are no more d-days. I pray everyday to every deity I know "Let me see things as they are and not how I want them to be"

and while I don't know if it heals my marriage, I know for sure that I can start healing myself

I agree Mel. My sense is the IC told my wife she didn't need to tell me the nitty-gritty details at this time (that was month ago...WW meets her monthly.

The book the IC recommended does talk about openness and honesty, and my WW was moving towards that before her last session. And some other things crept into the conversation. I think that's why the IC said "details not important at this time..." or something like that.

WW has one more meeting with IC (next week) then we will be going together in MC.

And WW said last night, "if you don't feel comfortable with IC we can get another one..." This was AFTER she gave me the details and I told her thanks, that lifted a huge weight off my shoulders.

I think my wife gets it. And I'm pretty sure her IC gets it. I will pay close attention to the counselor when I get my crack at her. Thanks for the input, as always!

Thanks ML...

I know what you mean about the counselor, but it seems to be the 'in thing' to give that kind of advice nowadays. Last year FWW and I were in marriage counseling for most of the summer. At the time, I knew nothing of the PA (I did know of the EA). Toward the end of the summer, I'd finally had enough. I wasn't going back. Ironically, at the same time, things blew up between FWW and OM. On our last visit, FWW requested a 'split session' with the counselor and finally told him (with me sitting in the waiting room) of the PA. His advice about telling me? "Why drop an atom bomb?" Nice. My snooping uncovered the PA 30 days later...

Anyway, when my FWW told me what this latest counselor had said, my reply was that this IC didn't know me and was looking out for FWW's best interests, not mine.

BTW, I have read SAA, and I do understand the concepts presented. FWW is still working on another book, and SAA is next on her agenda.

But all this other stuff aside, what I'm really not sure about here is if I REALLY WANT to know. Yes, I ask the questions, but that doesn't mean that I'm not afraid of the answers. I'm pretty sure that if I gave FWW MAJOR reassurances that it would be OK to tell me, she would. But is it what I really want? I hate wondering about the sordid details, but I'm truly afraid that if I get honest answers, I'll hate it even more. And we all know that once you walk off that cliff, there ain't no goin' back.... Make sense?

I know, it seems to be the "in" thing to take peoples money when you don't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage. That is why it is important to give your money to QUALIFIED counselors instead of people who are just out to take your money. It is up to YOU, as a consumer, to choose a good counselor based on their QUALIFICATIONS, rather than the popularity of the stupid advice they give.

As far as knowing details, just her WILLINGNESS to tell you will suffice. You might not want a great level of detail, but she has to be WILLING to tell you.

And please don't accept the advice of BAD COUNSELORS who tell you your marriage will ever recover by withholding the facts. Such a counselor hasnt a clue how to save marriages and I would dump her.

Personally I feel that the intimate details of the affairs were more than I wanted to know. At the time they seemed to be very important to me, but in retrospect I could have done without it. The images will pop into my mind at strange times, and completely ruin an evening. The one thing that I definately wish I did not know is all of the places they went to. If we go there now, sometimes I get instantly depressed.

This might still be a problem for me since we are not even close to fixing our marriage, but it has been a few years since the affair and I still have a problem with it.

You can forgive but will you forget? Even after your marriage has recovered and you are once again blissful, can you trust your self to not recall any of these images in an emotional moment of weakness? If you tend to dwell on things like I do then I would say that it would definately hurt more to know every little detail.

I am with you. Three years out, and I am still wondering..

Was it the crime, or the coverup that was the worst?

Can I ask why you go there?

They're fairly equal to me.

Well, my MC says asking for details is like bringing up (churning up) the past.
She says it just creates a cycle of going back to "stuck points" (my words) and we don't go forward, just round and round.
I can see this point.

Sometimes I think I am confident in demanding answers,
but since most BS have some sort of PTSD- I wonder if you are making more triggers for yourself to fall into?

I have heard from my H ALL the WH comments posted here...
WHERE do they get this choir book they all read??

It is funny. This seems to be running 85% for total disclosure, 15% hold some back.

So are you content with not knowing the details or are you still "stuck?"

In my case the triggers are already there. Would it really hurt to know instead of wonder? Not sure...





That's about what it's running inside of my confused mind (well, maybe 75%/25%)....

It sounds like you may not really want the details. If that's the case then you shouldn't push it. Or maybe you want the details only if they aren't too sordid. But you can't have it both ways. You can't ask for the truth but then be afraid of it. If that's the case don't ask. It's not easy to deal with all of it. But for me I needed it. I didn't want to continue R under a 'cloud' of uncertainties. Also I felt strongly about my WW and the OM having no secrets between each other. In a bizarre way I wanted it to be me, my WW and the OM when looking at or discussing the A. Obviously going forward I want it to be just my WW and me and a M based on honesty and openness.

Trust me I don't go to those places on purpose. Sometimes it doesn't hit me until we are already inside. When that happens I ask my husband to take me somewhere else as long as we're alone, but when we are with friends it makes it a little more difficult to leave.

I have found that it is extremely inconveinent to avoid some of these places, so I still wish that I didn't know everything.

I had to know all the details. Looking back I wish I had not ask but I did so I got all I needed. I offered my WW all the details of my affair but she said she did not want to know because it would hurt her more. I have to respect her decision but for me I would have not made it through recovery without details, all of them.

She is confusing 2 different issues and doesn't know what she is talking about. One is knowing all about the affair and the other is dredging it up over and over again. The only way to RECOVER is for the BS to have enough truth to UNDERSTAND the dynamics of the affair. The first step in recovery is honesty. The marriage will not recover if the WS continues to keep secrets from the BS because restoring trust will be impossible as long as the WS has secrets with the OP to which the BS is not privy. Radical honesty is the only way to recover.

In order for one to regain trust and understand the affair, the BS' questions must be answered to her satisfaction. For some that is a great level of detail, for others it is minimal. If those facts are WITHHELD, the BS does not recover. She will stay STUCK and will resent it. instead, he/she will spend her days wondering and dragging out every tidbit one bit at a time. Every time a new peice of the puzzle is dragged out, the BS goes back to Day 1 of recovery. It is like dying a death of a thousand cuts.

In fact, Dr Harley has even counseled BS's whose spouses REFUSED to be honest to separate. BS's can have severe emotional repurcussions from being lied to after an affair. I will post a link to a newsletter about a lady that was having lingering nightmares becuase her WS would not give her the details.

So, your MC is DEAD wrong about asking for details and misses the importance of honesty. Most MC are clueless about adultery so this is not surprising.

Now, here is where your MC has a point. Once all the facts are out there and questions have been answered satisfactorily, bringing it up over and over again DOES trigger the BS.

But there will be NO RECOVERY that doesn't begin with complete and total honesty. You might want to show your MC this newsletter by Dr. Harley:

"The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted."

Newsletter about woman who was having nightmares because her H was withholding facts: here

When answers are cruelly withheld from the BS, they do have PTSD when the truth eventually gets dragged out. A BS will have no peace until it comes out. Withholding truth is extremely cruel and manipulative. This is why marriages where the WS stupidly withholds facts have a much harder time ever recovering, if at all.

It is the cover up that kills them in the end because it is like dying a death of a thousand cuts.

Withholding truth about the affair is extremely disrespectful and cruel and manipulative to the BS and always causes great damage to the marriage. This is why Dr Harley is so emphatic that ALL THE DETAILS come out.

What if the BS would choose to end the marriage if she knew all the facts? She has to have ALL THE FACTS in order to make such a decision about her life.

I would advise anyone who feels like they have a withholding WS to insist he get a polygraph in order to continue the marriage. Radical honesty is absolutely essential. Otherwise, be prepared to face a death of a thousand cuts.