Did my H just infiltrate Cant's login? Because I swear this is you, Mr. L4.

I considered my "go to" EN deposit pretty clear and failproof although it is not one thing, like SF is...but then again SF isn't really one thing either since variety of SF is key too and not the same ole, same ole.

There may not be one huge 30 minute slam dunk...but there are so many 1 minute fillers that would, for me, easily add up to a slam dunk.

For you, it sounds like SF is very cut and dry...simple...it's just not that way for me as a woman. But I do understand how important it is to men...what it means to men...what it does for men. I get from your posts how important it is for you for women, more specifically your W, to understand the importance of SF from a male perspective. Have you also tried to understand SF from a female's perspective? What it truly means to a woman to give herself to a man this way? What is in her heart and head? It is not just 30 minutes of our time.

This is a tangent, but still ties in I think. Is it common for a woman to be relatively uninterested in getting physical if it isn't going to lead to sex? For example, doesn't want to be touched here or there, or even to deeply kiss if it's not going to lead to sex? I'm not talking so much about cuddling, hugging, holding hands, but a step above that. And I don't mean because she just doesn't feel like it. More like the kids are in the other room and there is no way we could have guaranteed privacy for more then 30 seconds.

Is this typical?

First, let me say that I agree with a lot of what is in that article. SF is a need, no doubt about it. That said:


This is my own personal opinion--I'd be interested to see if other women here have the same thoughts.

I don't think that women's needs are as fluid as you make them out to be. Granted, it might be help with dinner one night, backrub another night, bathtime for the kids a third night. The specific task can change. But what should not change is the attitude with which it is done. I get upset when I ask H to take out the trash and I hear "in a minute" and then 1/2 hour later, I'm going to bed and I say "could you please take out the trash" and he's still watching TV and says "yes, I told you I would do it" and then the next morning the trash is still there so I either ask him again at which point I get "quit nagging me. I told you I would take it out!" OR, I take it out and I am accused of playing the martyr.

Does that make sense at all? If you guys are going to do something that supposedly fills our need for attention, affection, conversation, etc., (and chores/tasks come under that category--doing the dishes is great foreplay, guys!), then please do it with a smile and try not to make us feel as though we are nagging!

I have tried SO HARD to understand. I just don't. I understand that you need to 'feel like it' and I would agree, I don't want to make love under duress... (Notice this is NOT under her dress... which lends all sorts of interesting thoughts. :MrEEk:)

The fact is that we understand it doesn't have NO meaning to you. In fact we WANT it to mean the same to you as to us, and therein lies the rub. It doesn't. It seems to be more of a 'sacrifice' for the wife and this lies at the heart of the issue for men. THAT, to us within our frame of reference, doesn't compute, so to speak. I have NEVER in my life, no matter how I was feeling, bad or good, tired or energized, felt that I was 'sacrificing' myself by having sex with my wife.

I have felt 'sacrificial' by doing laundry, folding clothes, sometimes working without admiration, etc. But NEVER have I had that sense from making love. In fact, it is so far removed from my 'experience' that is simply doesn't make sense to me. I understand that it is a sense women can feel, but it just doesn't 'jive' with me. It would be like me hating my children. Just isn't a real concept.

OR... at least that is what it seems like to me. That women often must 'sacrifice' their propriety in order to make love to their husbands for various reasons. Is that what you are saying?

I am really interested in this line of discussion, because NO... I don't understand. And I am one of the one's who CARES enough to WANT to understand.

Perhaps the real issue is that SF *does* mean a lot to a woman, which is why it's so frustrating for men when we can't compartmentalize and let anger, frustration, loneliness, unfulfilled needs and so on, get in the way of simply letting go and enjoying sex. It's not necessarily right but I think it's the way a lot of women are naturally wired and it's probably a re-learning process to change that line of thinking.

When I'm in that "I'm angry with him and upset with the state of my marriage" phase with my husband, I *miss* my sex drive. I know a guy would scratch his head and say "huh"? But I can be driving home thinking "oh yeah, I am soooo in the mood baby" and then I get home and H is yelling at the kids, the dishes aren't done, the house is a mess, we get into a stupid fight about something, I feel terrible about our inability to communicate and....

.......I just want to go to bed--by myself.

I'm not saying this is right. But right now, this is my life!

I absolutely Agree OH...

And I am guilty as charged. I will sometimes 'forget' to do something my wife has asked me to do, and I know that it is a withdrawl from my Love Bank. It certainly is not purposeful on my part and I have been absolutely guilty as charged.

I have taken it on myself to work on my Procrastination. I am meticulous at some things and completely lax with others. But I AM working on it... and have found that I try to do things as soon as they are brought up, because I know that if I put it off... even for just a couple seconds, the liklihood of me forgetting increases dramatically. I also write myself notes and place them in a specific location on our cabinets which I try to check regularly to see if I am forgetting something. I ALSO have a phone which connects to Outlook, which allows me to input appointments and things I KNOW I will forget, simply because I am the SUPREME AUTOPILOT guy. I could go through life on half a brain and autopilot, and probably no body other than my wife would even notice.

As to the 'attitude'... you are absolutely correct. Attitude is key. This works on BOTH sides of the coin though. I can tell you if you sidled up to me, Gave me a hug and a pat on the butt and said "Honey... my love... my darling... would you please take out the trash." I would certainly be more inclined to do it right then, than if you hollar from another room saying "Hey, take out the trash will ya'!"

A little 'sexual innuendo honey' as I like to think about it, gets about anything from me.

I understand... and I agree...

Your situation seems to be one at the bottom of the barrel in which everything which occurs bothers one or both of you. No matter what.

All I can say, is that OH... you are the one in your marriage who is here. You can't fix "HIM" by coming here. But you can, I believe with all my heart, HELP HIM to become better. I don't know whether the reality of your situation and the 'water under the bridge' has caused so much damage, that you can shoulder the whole thing. I truly do understand, because I have felt like I was bashing my head against a brick wall many, many times. But... I know that I have only 2 choices. Either do what I can or simply say enough, I am done. I have flirted around with the 'enough' side... But my base character is one of 'try to fix'. I absolutely recognize, though, that you can only fix what you have ability to, and that there is most certainly a time, in each person's life and relationship, where there is a 'right time in which enough is truly enough.'

You are here... and I congratulate you on it. I know exactly what it is like to try without success.

But as close as I was just a few days ago... my wife wrote me a letter saying she was 'sorry' and she has said that she is willing to do the MB stuff with me. For that, I am grateful I didn't quit. And hopeful for the first time in a LONG time.

CFIO, I think a good analogy is when your 3 year old comes to you to have you read the same book that you've already read 50 times. Now, you feel good about yourself as a parent because they like books, you feel good that they want to spend time with you, but you really just don't like reading this same book the 50th time. It was okay at the 20th reading, but at this point, you look forward to the day that they are done with this book for good. They know all the words, they could read it themself. But no, they want you to read it again. The whole thing. If you miss a word, they get upset. It's hard not to resent this little 3 year old for doing this to you. Especially when you have a ton of stuff to do when they finally go to sleep. At the same time, you feel guilty, because what parent doesn't want to read to their kid? What kind of parent does that make you? There are no options you like. It's read the same book again, and grow to hate it more, or listen to the temper tantrum.

The same way, as a wife, I used to think, man, I wish we could do something different, find some things we both like. But I am not enthusiastic about doing this same thing again. And if I ask for something different, OH MY GOODNESS that's when the DJs start.

That's why I think MB helps, looking at what would make you enthusiastic? Instead of this rut you hate. Maybe it would be fun again if you went to the library together and got some new books.

CFIO,
I wondered what happened. I'm glad to hear your W is going to try MB. Good luck!

GG

Wow! I am so glad to hear your wife is going to give MB a try. Maybe there's hope for my husband...

I am intrigued by the last few sentences in your post. I think I will give it a try. Thanks for the guy perspective.

heh... What do you think 'Nurse Uniforms' and 'Zorro Masks' were invented for???

Sheeshh... Mr. Obvious

CFIO, the thing is, you are enthusiastic. So these visual things, while it is remotely possible your W would like them, are not likely going to help her enthusiasm. Have you asked her what would make her enthusiastic? Do you two go on date nights, just the two of you? What would be special and meaningful to both of you?

Are you two discussing outside help, like calling the Harleys or marriage coaching? They would probably have tons of relevant ideas.

Great point, Ears. I love going for walks with H. He used to indulge me but a few years back, he said he hated to just walk (probably because it meant having a conversation--LOL) and would rather sit at a bar (not my thing) and have a drink and appetizers.

When we go to the gym, he works out on the elliptical which bores me if I do it more than 1-2x/week. I'd rather hit the spin class.

It's tough for us to find things to do together sometimes and when the subject comes up, it turns into a discussion of how much I've changed--I'm not the same person he married, because I don't like those things anymore. Not necessarily true. I don't mind going out for drinks/appetizers but it's spendy and we're financially strapped. A walk is free!

OH, that's straight outta that book, whenever you ask for something, for the other person to go straight to "kick you where it hurts." From the outside, it looks like bullying. Does he do this when others are around, too, or does he act nice at those times? Have you tried making a double date with him, so you can spend a little time with the H you used to know?

CFIO, your W doesn't do that, go straight to blame-shifting, does she?

In public, he's the perfect, charismatic gentlemen. He always refers to me in front of others as "my lovely bride". People think he's gregarious, humorous, fun to be with, etc.

So do you think that is something that you would be enthusiastic about if you decide to work on it? Going out as a group?

I love going out as a group--I'm basically a social person. But I'm very cognizant of the fact that we're struggling to make ends meet right now and that a night out can be expensive. I do budget entertainment but then we'll argue because our dinner bill is $35 higher than it would have been if he'd had just one or two glasses of wine, rather than a scotch followed by 3 glasses of wine.

Sorry, that was a DJ--a stab at his drinking. And a thread/jack.

OurHouse, what about morning stuff? Seabird talks about long-distance bike riding early in the morning with big groups.

I'm a morning person--he's not. I've asked this of him as well. He has a knee injury leftover from too many surgeries during his football career. When we first met/married, he still went running, walking, biking with me. Didn't ski any longer, though I could understand that because of his knee. He actually took up snowboarding because it's easier on your knees. But then he broke his back (not a boarding related incident--something else). Over the years, his knees and joints have gotten worse and now he doesn't like to go for long walks, doesn't run. He used to bike but he claims he doesn't like his bike--it doesn't fit him right.

He's at the gym about 4-5x/week so it's not like he's idle. But the things I like to do, he doesn't.

We used to share coffee in our bedroom on weekend mornings, but that's gone by the wayside in recent months. I should put that one back in our repetoire.