Does anyone else ever get stuck trying to believe details? Over the last month the WW has done a pretty good job of trying to lay everything out there in terms of timelines and details that I have been asking for. It hurts knowing that she did it because she didn't feel loved, but I can see how she would have felt that way. I was a jerk.

My problem is that I get hung up on her saying that she never wanted the actual PA to happen. And when it did start, she said it hurt, was dry, didn't enjoy it, wanted it stop, etc. As a male, I have a tough time understanding these things. Is this more WS fog or is it entirely possible and I am convincing myself otherwise?

If I was OM - I think that I would find a way to make her damp!

I'd say one of the reasons why you have a hard time believing her is that it's taken your WW almost a year to 'fess up those details. That's a lot of time to conveniently forget things, gloss over other things and get the story straight.

If your gut tells you that she's not telling the truth, then that's quite likely the case.

BTW - she cheated on you before your M was even one year old? How long did her A last?

The PA lasted three weeks. She went to his house three times. I was away on business all but three days that month.

I'd say that business travel would no longer be an option for me, regardless of the consequences.

If it was so bad then why did she do it with the OM multiple times? Is it possible she is trying to make you feel better in some way? Have you asked her a lot of questions of the line like was sex better with you or the OM?

She might mean she wasn't looking for the PA to happen. I think that me be the case with a lot of WW on here including yours. I think WH are usually looking for a PA if they are hanging out with an OW alone. For a WW they get that connection and then take it to the next level.

GP,
Well, I have the right anatomy to answer this part. It does hurt if you are dry. A LOT. Think of that prostrate exam with out the glove or the lube! Oh, and make the finger, his whole hand!
If I am not aroused physically or emotionally, I am dry. I am post menopausal too, I think your wife is too young for that.

Take care.

...and go to his house too.

Goldpig,

happen. And when it did start, she said it hurt, was dry, didn't enjoy it, wanted it stop, etc

Dry? She is 31 years old! Not even close to Menopause

NJ

That is what tortures me. Sometimes I think that she is still trying to protect me from hurting any more. Other times I want to trust her.

Her rational has been that she convinced herself that the she needed attention more than anything and that nothing physical would hapeen the second or third time she went. And then the OM started making things physical she was too drunk and too much in self-destruct mode to stop it. She figured "nobody cares about me" so why stop it....it was an effort to hurt her, me, and us.

Her story about the physical part of it hurting and not enjoying what happened hasn't changed from day one. She says that the OM had to force himself in even when changing positions. She has always said that the only thing she liked was the attention from the texts and phone calls. That once she showed up they didn't talk and he was a jerk. But she never made an effort to stop any physical parts of it. The alcohol apparently fueled the depression and lonliness into not caring about what happend from then on.

When I travel now on business, I bring her with or don't go. This is due to my trust issues, and quite frankly it is a whole lot more fun having company.

I think you need to tell her (and only if you mean it) that no matter what she says you are not going to leave her and you will not flip out. Don't promise that you will not be upset or hurt. Bc you might. Many WS don't get the O and H policy.
I wouldn't dismiss this. She very well maybe telling you the truth in how she felt. Many women (including my WW) really don't understand how much guys want to have sex with them. Even if they are 20, 30, or 40 years old. Just amazes me sometimes how naive they are including my WW. That men don't need a connection or anything of the sort to have sex with a women. Not saying its right but that's just the way it is for a lot of men. And then if you throw in a women who feels neglected and is lonely needing attention and just wants a friend and some OM comes along - just a recipe for disaster. The OM picks up on it instantly. Just pay a little attention to this woman and I'm going to eventually get some some. Now it in no way excuses your wife. She didn't have boundaries. She went to his house. She did have sex repeatedly. Maybe she was having sex with him bc deep down she knew that's what he wanted and she was so desperate for attention she didn't want to lose it. Who knows. My point being is you should listen to her. Doesn't make what she did right but at least you get to know what she is really thinking. Don't dismiss her thoughts or say I don't believe you or try to come up with reasons why she did. You need to make her feel safe if you really want the truth. Women and men look at sex differently a lot of the time. And you need to know what she was lacking so you can be that person to fill it so she doesn't look to anybody else. I know that's kind of sucks - thinking your W is going to goto some other guy if she's not getting enough attention and that is something she needs to work on for herself. Maybe IC. And it doesn't mean you have to kiss her behind but you need to ask yourself if you were meeting this needs that she had.


It may be true. It may be partially true. Maybe she was dry at 1st and then it got better. But you know your W (hopefully) best sexually. Has this ever happened with you? Have you ever go through a rough time and then have sex and she had trouble enjoying it? If that's true it would make what she said about sex more plausible. You said she was drunk? How is she normally when she is drunk and has sex? My exp is that most women seem to be more into - loss of inhibition and all but who knows. Every person is different. Maybe she really did feel guilty. And it was trouble for her to get sexually excited. Has she told you why she thought she was dry and couldn't get into it?
Don't underestimate the attention thing - huge EN for most women (and men). Why she didn't stop having sex? Tough one. I think honestly she would be fooling herself is she didn't want it to happen at all. But depression, alcohol, and feeling alone can make people do all kinds of things. Maybe she figured I already f'up so might as well have sex. Try to make herself a little happy for the moment. People use sex for comfort quite often.

Look - I'm not trying to excuse your WW at all. I'm living the same thing. My WW made multiple setbacks. Just make sure you look at all angles. Ultimatley she was dead wrong and she needs to apologize. But if she is making amends and into recovery, and you love her and want to be with her then you should try to understand things from her perspective. Most importantly for your own sanity - so you don't obsesses about the sex stuff and also so another A never happens again.

Can't say whether WW is truthful in that "it" was bad.

She went back three times for more bad SF.

However many a WW turned the EA into a PA to keep the attention coming. They were not there for the sex.

Why would a WW keep going back if it hurt and there was no enjoyment?

I have read where a BH learnt that the the OM has a huge tool and where the WW told the OM how much she hurt the next day but still loved what the OM did and was going back for more.

Where does your WW fit in?

Why not try a lie detector test?

Good questions. She said she went back because she figured "this" time he will talk to me and pay attention to me. Never happened. He kept feeding her alcohol until she was she didn't care I guess.

We have talked about the lie detector, and she has never said no. We are working w/ a counselor and a pastor to try to recover. Unlike the MC, the pastor said the wounds to be forced wide open to get out all the "shrapnel and maggots" before we can heal. Since then she has told me that her second two visits she allowed herself to continue the PA to hurt us. She said the first time she was too drunk to think or stop anything. Once it started she says she didn't stop it because she didn't care. Afterwards she would watch TV and cry while OM fell asleep. She has also told me a couple of minor details that I had never asked about since starting to see the pastor. So...short story long, a lie detector isn't off the table, but I am trying to get the truth without it. Avoiding AO seems to help that alot.

UD,

I am not dismissing the attention thing. For too long, I would shut her out completely when I was angry...sometimes days in a row without talking. I can see that I wasn't giving her that.

Except, he never gave her much for attention other than approaching her at the gym one day. He asked for her number, she gave it to him, and then he called her while she was at a bar w/ her friends. They never talked until closing time when OM and his friend asked for a ride home. She said yes. OM only talked to his friend on drive, and once they got inside. More drinks, friend leaves, and after watching TV for awhile he starts kissing her. She never stopped him, and even admits being curious about what he kissed like. She never stopped his further advances.

According to her, it was like Ground Hogs day each time. He never talked, and neither did she other than a few pleasantries when she got there. He would feed her drinks and start w/ back rubs and kissing.

Geez, it grates on me that the one thing she claimed she needed, attention, wasn't even a prerequisite for PA.

IOW, she was the guy's f-buddy.

I don't believe a word she's telling you about being "dry", etc. It's pretty clear that the A was primarily PA in nature. I can't see how someone would engage in a that's primarily sexual in nature if the sex itself wasn't pleasurable.

IMO she's giving herself excuses for her behaviour and hoping that you buy them too.

Ok. I got the impression they were talking and stuff from your line

"She has always said that the only thing she liked was the attention from the texts and phone calls."

I don't know then. Either way you can look at it sucks - you can either believe your WW needed attention and only had a PA to keep it going. I guess this sounds better in theory - makes the WW sound less like a wh0re. Or she was just looking to hook up and had sex and there was no EA. But I don't see this from the sex not being that good comments. Either option sucks though.

Maybe it was just attention - attention from another man. Maybe it just felt good for her to have someone's attention - bc she couldn't get yours. Maybe she felt like very alone or a failure as wife - and then you add drinking. Boy that makes people do things they regret. I know I do.

I don't know. The going back to the house thing bothers me. I can understand the 1st time (not condone) but going back there. I think she really needs to answer that one honestly. Did she really think they were not going to have sex? Was she not the slightest bit exited by the possibility. I almost feel like you would rather have you tell you - 'yes I knew I might have sex and although I didn't pursue it I didn't mind when it happened'. I think the painful sex thing is less relevant then honestly finding out why she went back there a few times.

Sometimes when things don't add up its bc you are not being told the full story and your mind is trying to twist the few details into that story and they don't fit.

FWW here. And I can relate to a lot of what your W is telling you.

I had a pre-M PA about 2.5 years before marriage. It was different than your wife's in that for me it was purely physical. I liked the guy and we had fun together, but I by no means loved him. Every encounter involved drinking to the point where I was intoxicated (even those at lunchtime) and after every encounter I felt like crap and couldn't believe I was doing it -- cheating on my BF (eventual H) with a guy I didn't even want to be with long-term.

Where your W and I differ is that the sex with FOM1 was pretty darn good, which is probably why I let it happen again and again over weeks time. Where our experiences may be comperable is that I was also going through a very dark time in my life. I'll spare the details but in short I had very little regard for myself, I kept my pain to myself, and saw the A as a kind of "who cares anyway". Just as your W would sit there and watch TV and cry, in my case after the FOM would leave, I'd grab even more drink, sit on the deck, smoke cigarettes (my BF didn't know I smoked), and cry. And guess what? The FOM would call the next day, make me feel worthy of at least some excitement in my life, and we'd be back at it again a few days later. I know it makes no sense. Because it doesn't. But sadly I can relate.

Regarding my PA #2 16 years later, last spring. I did believe I loved the man. We had had IM sex and phone sex over a couple of months. When we got together... How can I say this without TMI... (Vittoria, give me strength...) When we had digital sex, I had zero problem getting aroused in every way. When we were eventually together, I was extremely aroused but not in the lubed sense -- very much unlubed. Once we were actually "together", then that unlubeness changed immediately, but up to that point, my body was withholding. I look now and believe my body knew it was wrong and was doing everything it could to prevent the final act from happening. So yes, your 31-year-old W's body might have been responding to the psychological stuff in her head that was going on and refused to produce what was necessary to help it to be pleasing.

And why does a woman have the sex if she doesn't want the sex? My H has asked me the same, because when I met FOM2 in person I know I was dead set against having sex. I wanted to kiss him and be held by him, and thought we'd play a bit, but I did not want what happened to happen. I thought I loved him. I was loving the affection. I felt enviously desireable, and when he begged me, I felt because I trusted him that it would be okay. He was begging me to show him affection as he wanted and I felt I should do that -- because I felt safe with him. (I know... Gag me with a spoon!) Count me among those naive ones who thought the FOM was in it because he really cared about me. I know now that sex was all it was for him.

But I ain't throwing myself a pity party. I just wanted you to know that what your W is telling you could be true based on my own experiences. Doesn't excuse it by any means. But the parts of her illustration are similiar to mine.

Hence the topic of the thread...trusting details.

I am not sure I buy it either, but she will swear on the bible or our unborn babies life that it's true. The whole thing seems to be cocktails, ESPN, and PA. No EA, no talking hardly at all.

Then again, I can't dismiss it completely. She was drunk, OM knew it, fed her more alcohol, and exploited her. Possible?

Their phone and texts were limited to "how was your day" or "what's going on". That was enough for OW apparently. It wasn't enough for me to limit my conversations to the mundane, but it was in her eyes for OM.