CFIO,

I have been reading on this thread sporadically since it started. One thing I may have missed is what happens in the time after SF...I mean in the day after...not immediately. I don't know how it is with you all (men), but I do know that my H has a tendency to do something to push me away during that time. For example: H likes to wear a kilt; I'm very uncomfortable with it as we live in a small town in TX and it's just not done. He knows it makes me uncomfortable, but often will wear it after we have SF. This does not make me enthusiastic about SF. It's a case of classical conditioning (like Pavlov's dog).

Is your W "conditioned" to avoid sex? Not because she doesn't like sex, but because it comes with something she sees as negative. Do you go on your merry way once you have your needs met or do you go out of your way to care for her ENs and AVOIDING LBs?

That is a very good question. Although only one which she could answer. I don't know of any quirky 'things' or pushing behavior that I would have after sex. Usually, those are the days which I feel best so at least, on the surface at this moment, I would say I don't have them.

As to your husband, I cannot say... maybe making love to you causes him to feel so 'manly and confident' that he develops such a sense of confidence that he is 'ABLE' to wear the kilt in Texas... I don't know, but I do agree that if he knows that it bothers you he should negotiate that part of his desires WITH you.

I say this because anyone who wears a kilt, I would guess, would have a real reason to do so (Scottish Pride) etc. Whatever that reason is, and ESPECIALLY since it is in Texas (coming from the West I understand how he would be looked at with questioning thoughts). Maybe YOU give him the courage, confidence, etc. by making love to him to cross that boundry and do what he would like to do.

The problem REALLY stems from your discomfort with him WEARING it in the first place it seems. So I would recommend addressing this fact separately and perhaps negotiating times when he can wear it without a subsequent 'punishment' from you... and you can feel that YOU aren't being punished by HIM for your involvement in SF.

I don't know... this is an interesting thought and I know YOU have seen the connection, but I wonder if he really recognizes it. Men are pretty dense... I gotta say... as women are sometimes blind as well. There might be a solution to the problem where you find 'peace' with him wearing the kilt in certain situations, and his SF need does not remain connected to your feelings of UNfulfillment during sex. I can certainly understand how your connection of SF and embarassment, etc would be made.

Hmmm, it is early in the AM... I wonder if I stated this how I was MEANING to state this.

Can't,

That is wonderful that your W is willing to give MB a try. I'm so jealous. My H was not interested at all.

I think the fact that you are here shows you are interested in the woman's point of view. Besides what you have read here, have you read anything else about women and all our precious little quirks? I'm a reader so when I have an issue, my first thought is to find a book about it. Also, although I know what I want and can explain it in a way that makes perfect sense to me, I know that that doesn't mean it will make perfect sense to anyone else...especially someone else who can't relate to it. If I may suggest, there is a great book called Captivating: Unveiling the Mystery of a Woman's Soul by John Eldredge. It is a Christian based book and does a great job explaining a woman's desires in life...at least it did for me. It's not so much about sexuality, but remember a woman's sexuality starts way before she enters the bedroom.

He also wrote Wild at Heart which explains the man's point of view. If you and your wife are interested, you could get both books and each of you read one book and then switch.

OH,

I hear you about spending time together that interests you both and doesn't cost a ton of money. I don't know if your H or you would be interested but here are a couple of ideas I came up with that don't necessarily require extra money. After the kids are in bed...my H and I will share a bottle of wine or a couple of beers and play a board game or cards. We love the 80's Trivial Pursuit since we were teenagers in the 80's.

We also will make dinner together. Something new and with a theme like Thai or fondou or Italian or pizzas. We've got to eat and we are going to spend money on groceries so why not turn it into a date night. Add some candles, music and laughter and it turns into a lot of fun. We still laugh about the time we made blackenend grouper and my H smoked up the entire kitchen and the smoke detector went off. Tip...when using a blackening technique...do it outside on the gas grill!

We try to pick one tv show that we make ours. We have a set date each week to watch this particular show. Get the kids in bed and watch it together. This really gives us something to look forward to and gives us something to talk about during the week that doesn't involve the kids, finances, jobs, etc.

Since we both have just hit 40, we are also trying to be a little more healthy. We work out at the gym, but not necessarily together. So, we spend some time at home working out where my H helps me...doing ab work, some light free weights. I find he really gets a kick out of this...makes him feel good about helping me.

I hope that helps.

I also want to thank everyone who has contributed here. I am getting a lot of great information.

Ears,

Sure hope your H doesn't lurk around here. I'm not saying your analogy may not be true for your feelings, maybe a lot of women, but... You just compared the most wonderful, intimate, connecting act God created to the boring tedium of reading the same book to your child. HUH?

Like it or not, you really only legitimately get one book to read at a time. Sorry if it is boring for you. Be willing to try a different chapter. Heck write your own chapter. My wife to complains of the boring part but yet refuses to do things that might make it less so. Maybe that's not the case for you, I don't know what kind of DJ's your husband is throwing out. Can you approach it a different way? Did you suggest things in a way that suggested or made him feel inadequate? If it's not working for you, speak up and try to change it for the better rather than resenting him for wanting you. Do it in a way that preserves his ego. Might be tricky, but worth the effort.

ruby...

I am certainly a 'reader'. I read all the time, and have read many, many books about relationship both during this one and at the end of my first marriage. I realized so many things, and made alot of changes.

My wife is not one to read about relationship issues. This has been a sore point for me, not because she won't, but because I believe I gained so much from doing so, that I want her to have that opportunity. MY eyes were opened on so many levels. MY understanding was dramatically helped. MY, MY, my my my my... heh. I KNOW it is ME, MYSELF, and I in this instance... that is also frustrating to me, because I recognize that what I want, desire, and wish for is not the same as what she wants. I think my biggest frustration is simply that I feel we don't have even much of a basic language with which to begin trying to understand one another. I feel that there are several books which would help. She feels otherwise. NEITHER of us is wrong. But doing nothing frustrates me because NOTHING different happens and we keep falling back into the same trap because we can't talk any differently, much less ACT differently.

I will take what I can get from my wife for the moment. If she is willing to try, I will hopefully be able to allow her to try on her own time and at her own pace. My problem arises when my patience wears out after 2 1/2 years, and any changes which would have been GREAT 2 years ago, are currently TOO slow or TOO little at this juncture. Baby steps are great at the beginning, but they don't cut it at the end.

CFIO, please try to have just a bit of patience with your wife. She has agreed to start on the MB journey. For someone who doesn't read relationship books or subscribe to the entire relationship building strategy, that is HUGE. I don't see it as a baby step at all.

This is exactly our point. So life happened. Things weren't perfect. So rather than make things better by reconnecting with your husband through SF (which you admitted was already something you were looking forward to), you chose to let life get in the way.

I don't always feel like taking out the trash, but I realize that I need to do it. I don't always feel like listening to my wife, but I do it anyways. I don't always feel like stopping what I am doing and remembering to call her at work, but I try to make it a point to do so. What would happen if I only took out the trash when I am in just the right mood and everything is going perfect?

That is where the double standard shows up.

Guys, you have to do everything to meet the ENs of your wife, regardless of whether your in a good mood, feel like it, or are having your needs met. Do not let a single EN go unfulfilled. There is no excuse for you not trying and succeeding.

Ladies, you too need to do everything you can to meet the SF needs of your man, UNLESS of course your boss yelled at you at work, the car was low on gas, the kids had too much homework, there is a single dirty sock in the laundry basket, your husband has failed to meet ALL of your EN's, you had a disagreement with your MIL, the dog barked too loudly on the way in. etc. If any of these conditions exist, ladies, you are perfectly justified in not "being in the mood." And if your man complains, tell him "that's all he ever thinks about" and withdraw. Feel free to ignore the 99 good thing he does. Be sure to focus on the one thing that he failed at. Oh, and don't feel like you have to tell him what was wrong either. He should read your mind. If by chance he knows what he did wrong or failed to do and fixes it, be sure to find something else to hold against him the next day. If you continue to ignore his need for SF, he will eventually quit bugging you about it.

I jest a little and maybe exaggerate (not real sure about that) but the reality is there. As guys, we can't control life. I get tired of trying to make everything just perfect all day long in hopes that maybe, just maybe, enthusiastic SF might happen later on. It's not our fault life happens.

OH, sorry for the venting... not all directed at you. Just the reality of my situation as I interpret it. Sounds like CFIO and the other guys on here live in my reality as well. Hopefully yours is different.

Can't,

My H is the same way in regards to reading about relationships. In our case, he feels we have no problems so if I feel we have a problem then it is my problem. He has told me this basically word for word. I've come to realize, accept or convince myself that his feelings on this are due to his own insecurities and not necessarily about me. If I look at it this way, I am able to feel compassion toward him and not contempt.

One thing I know for sure, I want to be married to this guy. I love him, he is my best friend and he truly is one of the good guys. I know in my heart that things I need that he can't give me is because he can't not because he won't. So I focus on all the good he brings to us....which is a lot. And I focus on what I can change, which is me, and I take a lot of pleasure out of making life pretty good for him.

It still stings, those things I feel are missing or not being met, but it is no longer my driving force. I am slowly accepting what is and also trying very hard to find happiness with it too.

CFIO,

Hang in there. Be careful of those feelings. Trust me I know where they come from. Reread what Harley wrote. Sound like you are in the "withdrawal" mode as your giver has given so much it's too tired to give any more. Dangerous area to be in if you're not careful. IF you truly didn't care, you wouldn't be here. Keep it up. Keep putting up with it. Do all you can do and pray hard.

JCat,

Your last post sounds to me that you want us, women, to understand your point of view about this subject and accept it as the correct point of view, while ours...the fact that life does have an affect on our desire for SF...is wrong. Do you understand that we are wired this way. Our emotions have a huge affect on us and on how we operate.

And I have to tell you, there have been plenty of times when my H has come home from a bad day at work where conversation with me or anyone else was the last thing he wanted. There have been plenty of times when we had planned a "clean the house night" or even a date night and he was just too mentally exhausted to do so. I understood his need for space and to decompress. Why is that any different from me having no desire for SF that night when life was exhausting me too.

I'm not saying you are wrong for thinking the way you do...life shouldn't get in the way of SF...but can you try to see you aren't necessarily right either. Different people...different points of view. I know that the more understanding I am of the other's point of view, the happier I am.

Oh, Jcat, I was sharing that more as an in general analogy. I don't turn my H down, because I'm not unenthusiastic. I was thinking kinda like that soggy potato chip theory, where a soggy potato chip is better than no potato chip.


JCat, I think it's great that some folks get to experience it this way. That's what I had always hoped for, too. But that's not how it feels to a me when my H is in State of Conflict, judging and criticizing me. Deliberately not doing anything I ask that would make it more of a two way experience.

Also, this is to CFIO, too, that part of it for me was worrying about an oops pregnancy, too. I don't think that's just me, I read a lot that SF is a lot more fun after menopause because there's no worry of getting pregnant. So if you remind your W that you're in a time of month not so likely to result in pregnancy, which I think is the first week and a half and the last week and a half, she may relax a little more from remembering that, too.



Yes. I wasn't trying to suggest that, but that was how he felt, that I wasn't bowled over with exactly the way he was doing it. He didn't and doesn't want any input from me whatsoever. He says it feels to him like I'm telling him he's doing it wrong.


I don't resent him wanting me. I used to resent rather than accept that he only wanted to do things things one way for him, not for me. What helped was bringing it up in MC, which actually made a big difference, for him to hear from another man that men do take some input from the W so SF can be fulfilling for both. I think the part that made the difference was the accountability, that he knew that this other man was going to ask him, so how's that going. It was okay with him when there was no one else knowing. Unfortunately, we're no longer in MC anymore, so it's reverted back to this old pattern.


I try, but I don't think I'll get any positive response until he's back out of State of Conflict again. Because he still gets mad at this point and reverts to DJs like a sarcastic "I'm sorry that nothing I do is good enough" when I say something small when what we're doing isn't working for me, too, like, "I liked it when you did it that way."

I think this may be a little different issue than CFIO, though, whose W isn't out loud trying to find what would make her more enthusiastic about this. Maybe instead of trying to work through it together, she is just exhausted with it because it isn't a big EN for her. So in that case, it may come easier to her to make do with doing without.

I do accept that. That is why I try desperately to make life better for my wife in every way I know how and am capable of.



I do try to be understanding. HAving a rough day, no problem. Rough week, okay... Rough year? Get's discouraging. I'm not talking about the occasional need to decompress, but the very regular routine of letting anything and everything get in the way of meeting each other's needs, regardless of which direction it is going or which need needs to be met.


I can be understanding, but it really isn't helping me get my needs met. Understanding doesn't seem to be helping the outcome. That builds resentment. What do you do?

Yes, you're right. And in a perfect world (or just a "good" world, where I am feeling connected with H), a scene like I described would not send me running to the bedroom by myself.


Again, in that perfect--really just "good"--nothing is perfect--world, H calls me at work more often than not because he knows it's important to me. He takes out the trash more often than not without it getting to me asking the third time and getting branded a 'nag'. He listens to me more often than not without interrupting, rolling his eyes, DJing what I am saying or just totally discounting it.
Do you see where I am going? I don't expect or even want perfection. I just want to feel like my needs are important to him and in my particular situation, JCat, I don't feel that way.


See my comments above. I think I addressed it for my situation.

Trust me, I know exactly what you mean. I have mentioned that my H does not meet my top EN for affection. I have tried very many times to talk to him about this and given him specific examples. And I honestly don't believe these are off the wall, difficult requests. He has told me what I want is a fairytale and that's just not him. Funny, that's the guy I married, but according to him it's not who he is...now, I guess.

He also has a hard time discussing emotional issues...which is something I need to feel close to him and intimate with him. For me, being able to do this would have a huge positive impact on our SF. And again, I am met with "that's a fairytale" and "that's not me" or "that's your problem, not mine."

So what happened is the resentment built...which also meant my desire for SF plummeted.

But here is the kicker, I love him. I want to be married to him. He truly is one of the good guys. He is a great dad and my best friend. So I made a conscious decision to stop focusing on what he wasn't doing and focus on what he was doing. I decided to do my very best to make him happy and feel loved with out worrying about what I was getting out of it. I decided to try my very best to see our M from his point of view...what his needs are and why. Yes, I still miss and want what he can not give me but I am doing my best to meet those needs for myself nowadays. Basically, I am accepting he is just unable to meet those needs for me. In my case, I think I can do that and still be happy with my marriage.

Part of being able to accept that is realizing why he can't. I don't think it is because he just will not. I think he just can not because of his own issues. That's is probably a DJ but based on what I know about him and his past, I think there is a lot there to explain why he can't. And me understanding this/believing this has helped me help my marriage.

Does anybody remember the Friends episode where Ross is going to get presented with some award, and he get's upset at everybody because they aren't dressed and ready to go. Rachel gets upset at him and decides not to go at all. It turns out the only way Rachel will go is if Ross drinks a glass of fat. After he starts to drink Rachel tell him to stop and does a complete 180 on him. Not only does she decide to go, but she goes commando.

Somehow, I think this applies here.

Love that episode.

I guess the question then is how long are you prepared to continue this. Not trying to say you're not doing the right thing. Maybe it's the only thing you can do. In a very similar situation myself. So is CFIO it sounds like. BUT --- How long before the resentment builds. If we are to believe Harley, it is only a matter of time and the Giver wears out and the Taker takes over. Can you last a month? a year? 10 years? till death do you part?

I would like to say I fall in to that last category. Some days I know I can make it. Other days...

So if all we can change is how we respond and you've done that as best as you know how and not much has changed. D isn't an option that you're willing to consider based on personal/religious beliefs. What does that leave us? Just having to suck it up for the rest of our lives? Venting on some discussion board to keep from going crazy? other ideas?

I haven't really thought about it.

Really for me, letting it go was such a big relief. Focusing on what he wasn't doing was exhausting. I was sad, angry, disappointed, resentful. It's still a work in progress but I can feel the relief and it's nice. Maybe I'm fooling myself, I don't know.

Focusing on what he is doing and focusing on what I am doing has been good for me. It has actually given me a sense of control. I'm finding happiness in other areas of my M. I'm learning new things. At the end of the day, I'm happy with me...and I haven't been that way for a long time either. Maybe that is why this is working for me. The added bonus is my H seems to be happy too.

That is awesome for you. Perhaps I'll get there. I've been there in the past and have "fallen off the wagon" so to speak.

CFIO,

Thanks for the reply.

I forgot to mention the whole point of my post in the first place....Have you and your DW filled out the LB questionaire?

BTW,
My H has NO heritage involving kilts. His best friend (in another state) has one and they pump each other up about how "manly" kilts are. I am concerned for many reasons, but mostly for our kids. Shortly before Christmas, DS8 and DD6 wanted to look at bracelets to match "Daddy's kilt." I did correct them and say that wasn't appropriate.