Well, I thank you ML and U_D for your answers.

Part of plan B is for the betrayed spouse not to listen to fogspeak. It does no good, it tears the BS up.

Would you consider "he gave OW roses for her birthday" (while he gave the BS a vacuume) only going to hurt the BS more?
<I mean akin, not the exact same as fogspeak in spirit?>

<trying to keep this example light so I do not trigger someone>

The answers here are priceless, thanks all.


....a lot to chew on.

huh? Fogspeak is not radical honesty, it is lies and rationalizations. Honesty is the SOLUTION to adultery..


Of course the truth hurts. That is a given. But it would hurt me more if that information was kept secret from me. It would hurt me more if that was a secret between the infidels. We are all big boys and girls here. If we are big enough girls to be married and drive a big girl car, we are big enough girls to hear the truth.

I understand what you are saying. That basically the truth hurts more then not knowing. But do you really want your M to continue that way? Where you really don't know the true extent of the A. Many WS downplay the A. They will say it was just sex, I didn't care about her. In your above example I think it would be relevant for you to know this. I think giving gifts would show the WS was really into the A. It wasn't just above sex or whatever. I think this important to know bc there is a bigger chance of a false recovery or breaking NC if that is the case. No doubt it is going to hurt you if the above was true but I would also look at it from another 2 angles -

1. The wondering angle. If you don't find out for sure - you will probably wonder for the rest of your life on your birthday if he ever gave the OW something better on her birthday. Your birthday present will never 'measure' up bc your imagination will be running wild. Rose will turn into jewelery, jewelery into vacations, etc for the OW.

2. Even if you found out the above example was true - now knowing that above info I think it would be pretty reasonable to ask from your H something more significant for your birthday. Just compensation I think would apply here. In this way your H would be elevating you above the OW in some small way. Obviously gifts are only materialistic but lets be honest - everybody likes them and there is nothing wrong with your H showing his love to through a thoughtful gift from time to time.

I want to make sure I'm on the same page as everyone else here...

I understand the necessity of knowing details that shed light on the dynamics of the A (dates, locations, # of times, cell phone usage, gifts, etc...). I agree that a BS has a right to know these things. I know this is important in order to create accountability & transparency and to restore trust.

My FWW has never had a problem giving me this information.

I guess the details I'm referring to in my post are, shall we say, rather sexual in nature... Right down to the nitty gritty.

Is it really that important to know this stuff? It really has nothing to do with insuring that the A is not continuing, or preventing a new A from getting started.

I think that, deep down, I just want to know the depth of her betrayal, and I'm not so sure that's a good thing....

I don't think its necessary to know the nitty grity sexual details. But I do think the WS owes them to the BS IF the BS wants them. If they are not important to you they you don't obviously need them. If you can move on and not dwell on it then more power to you. If you never wonder if your S did this or that with the OP then that is a good thing. Unfortunately for me I can't say the same thing. Doesn't make one of us right or wrong just the way it is.

Since sex is a big part of M I think I lot of BS want to know the details bc they feel in a way they are competing with the OP sexually. They want to know the details bc they want to make sure the OP is not more sexual attractive to their WS or the WS was not into the OP more sexually. And that can somewhat figured out by asking details like what acts did you do, what positions, etc. But most of all I think its just the wondering...your imagination going wild.

Thanks U_D...

Unfortunately, this kind of information is important to me, from the acts to physical comparisons. I wish that it wasn't.

And trust me, if certain questions weren't answered "correctly", I know I would be devastated.

What FWW doesn't understand, is that every time I ask a question and get a "it wouldn't be good for us" answer, she just sort of confirms my suspicions. (actually, now that I think of it, I haven't told her that. I'll have to do that tonight.)

I guess I just need to step back and have a good long think about what I really want here....

Funny...hmmm...

I don't need the "details"...

Of course two of them run around the house buck nekkid on bath day and call me "mama." If I knew anymore, I go stark nuking futz.

Kind of sounds like a catch 22 for you. You need to know but don't want to know.

My WW did similar kind of things to me - like say why do you want to know this? It's not going to you any good. But I insisted. So she did. Do I regret it? No. Am I happy with knowing? Not exactly. Would it better to not know? Possibly - if I didn't have a very imaginative imagination.

And to be quite frank - not to lessen it - but sex is sex (the physical part - not the emotional connection). There are only so many ways to do it. For me - they didn't do anything that we had not already done. It wasn't as 'good' as I pictured it in my head. Now don't get me wrong - she was honest with me - she said she enjoyed it. She had an O. The whole thing. Not good things to picture. If you can't handle knowing these kinds of things - then you are not ready. But I think its better to get the sexual details that you need out in the beginning of R. Who want to revisit it 5 years from now? The truth is the truth. Once its out there is nothing that can hinder your R. To be honest I don't think of the details as much. They still pop into my mind from time to time though. For me I didn't want to have sex with my WW for the rest of my life and wonder if they did this position or did this act....

survived, only YOU can answer that question. No one else can answer that for you because it is entirely individual. You have to know enough detail FOR YOU to be able to put the affair into perspective. You have to have a COMPLETE PICTURE from a willing wayward in order to understand the dynamics of the affair and be able to recover. If you don't have enough detail to give you the complete picture, you can't put it to rest and move forward.

Each betrayed spouse needs a different level of in depth detail to get that complete picture. Some need a great level of detail, others need very little. It is entirely individual. You may need to know the gifts that were exchanged, but don't feel you need or want to know sexual positions, etc. Again, it is entirely individual.

What is important is that the WS is WILLING to give the BS the details he needs to recover. That is the important thing.

Fogspeak CAN be a truth. At the time.

What I mean is. Plan B helps protect BS from the details of what is going on in the A and WS mind. That is a very good thing. It protects remaining love, and allows the BS to improve themselves.
I know that as a BS if I had to hear those thoughts (even if my H does not feel that way NOW) It would have killed my marriage- game over. My soul is NOT bulletproof.


WH may say: <During an A or shortly after>
..."I love her." That, at that time, is probably truth.
..."I was unhappy with you." Again a truth < for that time or forever>
..."We have (wow, wow) sex".. Again, truth.
..."She is a better mate for me that you"..
..."She is younger...prettier...smarter.." (blah, blah) All of this may be the truth.

But does ANY of this <fogspeak> information HELP a BS at this time? I say no.

Do I want to hear this now? No. Would it help me if I knew it all? --

huh? Fogspeak is not radical honesty, it is lies and rationalizations. Honesty is the SOLUTION to adultery..


This is the statement I am replying to. Fogspeak is Fogspeak. As in most things in life, there is truth and fabrication in it.

Love you, ML

Barbiecat, first off, Plan B is to protect the BS from an ONGOING AFFAIR, not fogbabble. It is the AFFAIR that is painful. Sure, fogbabble is painful, but one doesn't separate over it.

Fogbabble is not radical honesty. Fogbabble, by definition, is a language of lies, excuses and rationalizations; thats hardly radical honesty. Everyone knows the difference.

One needs radical honesty in order to recover, they need to be protected from fogbabble.

I will just say again, that it is up to the BS how much or how little detail they need in order to recover. Keeping secrets about an affair is much more hurtful than hearing the details. And will prevent recovery.

Dr. Willard Harley:

"Radical honesty is so important in marriage that there is a much greater risk of divorce when a couple is not radically honest, than there is when a couple reveals very hurtful information to each other. "

Totally agree.

I just wanted to outline that if the BS decides they do want details, it's the duty of the WS to answer all questions completely honestly. Otherwise, recovery for the BS won't be possible.

Immediately after d-day, I demanded every detail. EVERY detail. I was obsessed. I couldn't, and wouldn't stop. Not only did I demand every detail from her, but I started a file on OM and his family. I relentlessly hunted down as much info as I could on them. License plate numbers on cars, etc. I found much of the info online, but I found some by getting out and doing some legwork...spying, you could call it.

I literally know more about the OM than my wife does.

Did it hurt to know all of the facts? Terribly. Would I have done anything differently? Not a chance.

We've all heard the saying "knowledge is power", and it's true after d-day as well. The WS should not be allowed to have a single secret bewteen them and the OP, especially when it comes to sex. Should the A ever be restarted, or never really end in the first place, that info can become VERY powerful.

If OM ever has sex with my wife again, I'll be having sex with him shortly after. Without lube.

If that is the case, then shouldn't your marriage be ended? If the truth would kill your marriage, doesn't that say you shouldn't be married; that your marriage is based on an illusion that is not based on the truth? Doesn't that say your marriage is based on a lie?

See, many people do choose to end their marriages. But they cannot make such an INFORMED choice without all the FACTS. How will they make that decision if they don't know everything?

Barbiecat, what is your story? Are you a wayward spouse yourself?

I think "knowing all the details" probably hurts more than it helps. Most likely all of the details are not needed in order to achieve the objectives of recovery.

This not to say the WS should be unwilling to provide them, its just saying that for many people (not all), all of the details are not needed.

I think if you look at Dr. Harley's discussion of needing to know the details, his reasons are objective oriented. He is not saying details are needed for the sake of having the details, they are needed to help re-establish trust and to cut off avenues the WS may be tempted to use in order to re-establish contact with the OP.

If you are one of those people who just has to know every detail, then fine. If not, I'd consider looking at what you need to know based on what you want to achieve. Details beyond what you need to achieve your objective are most likely (but not always) going to be a hurt. Simply because if they don't work toward your goals, then at best these details will be "neutral".

For me, aside from the objectives Dr. Harley mentions, what I really wanted to achieve with knowing the details of the A, was for my wife to confront the realities of the situation as opposed to holding on to the fantasy.

Just as an example, many WS's will claim that the A just happened. But when the details come to light, it is clear that a tremendous amount of effort went in to making it "just happen."

EXACTLY. Every BS will have a different level of detail they need in order to recover trust. Some want alot of detail, others just need a basic outline. But if a person who needs a GREAT DEAL of detail doesn't get it, they aren't going to recover without it. The WS has to be WILLING to give them what they need in order to build trust, that is what counts.

I do know that in marriages where the WS cruelly withholds facts, there is no hope of recovery, because trust cannot be restored on that basis.

The most important thing is that the BS be allowed to set the standard for what level of detail she wants or needs. NO ONE ELSE IS QUALIFIED TO DETERMINE THAT.