Cat, I am so glad to see you taking these steps to protect your family.

Ok, I don't know if this was right. Let me know.

My mom asked me to drive her to her old town today, so I told H she wanted me to, asked if he minded, he said no, so I went this morning (yay me for going outside my comfort zone!). H had given D18 a gift card, so I suggested they could go to the mall while I was gone, which they did. They didn't get home til 7. D18 goes straight up to her room to get on line and talk to friends, as kids do. H does a little work on stuff he hadn't finished, asked where she was, told him, told him that her friends had asked her to meet them at Denny's tonight. Which set him off.

He's going out of town in the morning. He has this thing he does where, since he's going to be gone, he feels good if we plan special time with him before he goes. So I said she was leaving, he started grumbling, chewing me out about how selfish she was for not wanting to spend the night before he goes out of town as a family. Oh, and that she never thanked him for spending exra money on her at the mall (above the gift card).

So I go upstairs to tell her dinner's ready, and that dad would like her to spend some time with him. Which sets HER off...I've been with him all day long, yada yada. So she comes down. By that time, H is in bed with the lights off. I try to talk to him, he does his regular 'I'm just here for the money, that's all I am to you guys' routine.

So I go tell D18 to come into the bedroom. She does, and he says what? I say, tell HER. Tell HER what you are thinking. Of course at first he didn't want to, but then started giving her the third degree, but she gives back as much as she gets. I try to say a few things for both sides, not so great at not letting H know I'm upset with him, though. I tell her that's enough, you guys have said your piece, go in the other room. After she leaves, he tries to go in on it with me again and I just said 'you guys talked about it, there's nothing else to do. Dinner's ready, if you want to eat.' And I left.

Of course by then D18 is in the kitchen crying, saying she's too young to be the adult in the family (she reads a lot of psychology texts). I say that's not being the adult in the family, but AN adult in telling the other person how you feel. Has to be done; H hears her crying, comes in, tells her not to be upset, which goes nowhere. Finally, he comes and sits down and eats with us, and it blows over after we eat and watch tv for awhile.

So, was there a better way to handle it?

Um... let them take responsibility for their own relationship? You aren't responsible for "fixing" them or their relationship. DD18 is a teenager, she's supposed to be chomping at the bit to be with her friends instead of her family.

I dunno, my kids aren't that old yet so I haven't BTDT, and I'm prolly not that good a mom, but I prolly wouldn't have stopped her going to see her friends (she had a point - she'd just spent *all day* with her *dad* at the *mall*). It seems like a normal thing for a teenager to do. I know when I was a teenager my mom was never able to guilt me into staying... of course I wasn't a stellar DD either. LOL

What were you hoping would come of you calling your DD into your bedroom to talk to your H who was in bed? Were you intending to keep her from going to meet her friends, or wanting H to change his mind and approve her going, or wanting them to make up or was it something else?

No. I had already told her she could go. I was trying to stop being the go-between. He gripes at me about her. She gripes at me about him. I figured if they, for once, would say what they thought TO each other instead of ABOUT each other, they might get to a point where they see they can do that moving forward. I thought about just saying 'leave me out of it' but I've done that before, and it never changes anything. I guess if nothing else, it was me showing them if they try to gripe at me I'll just do the same thing again. It's easy to talk trash about someone if they can't hear you. I think it might have helped a little.

I also learned a little, cos he was offended that I had made a decision about letting her go without him being involved. Good point, so I'll be more careful about that - in what little time we have left with her before college.

I am a little proud, though, that, instead of staying in the bedroom and trying to kiss up to H, knowing he was about to blow a gasket - like I always have and which perpetuated the problem by giving him his stroking fix, I left the room, and that may have been what kept him from continuing it.

Cat...you know what I think? I think you're at a point with your daughter that you feel confident she can deal with whatever he comes off with, and that means something. It means you feel good about your own parenting and her strength as a person.

But I've been where you are with being the go-between, and I can really relate to how exhausting that can be emotionally. I can see myself doing what you did, but I can also see myself talking to both parties privately, suggesting that they each talk to the other and then backing off and going and doing my own thing. Editing to say I have no idea if that would be the right thing to do or not. Maybe I need to read some good psychology books myself. lol

Nevertheless, I can see myself in a similar scenario - frustrated at going back and forth trying to patch things up between two other people and trying to make things better for everyone when the reality of the sitch is that their relationship is not progressing while I'm involved.

Sad that as mothers we feel the need TO be involved and sad that as mothers we feel pretty certain the relationship will NOT get better without our help. I wonder if that is part of why we are put here on this earth sometimes - to smooth things over - make life easier for others, etc. Maybe it is. I don't know anymore.

I wonder if you can see yourself talking to your husband about his relationship with D18? Ask him how life with her would be if you weren't in the picture? How would their relationship be? And try, somehow, to make him aware that his relationship with her greatly involves you and perhaps it shouldn't.

Soolee, that's a great idea! I will bring that up with him.

Cat, I liked how you spoke up for yourself. I get a little flustered when this stuff happens, feel, like, isn't that part of Domestic Support that I'm supposed to do, make the home cheerful and happy? That whole, "If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy" So if they're getting into arguments together, maybe somehow I'm not showing enough happiness? I'm so glad that I can put that down. And I'm SO glad for you and your family cat that you didn't take this on your shoulders to fix, that you respected them as adults, that they can own their stuff.

Anyhow, for lessons learned for next time, how about planning a fun eveing the night before with the family? And then keep up what you did yesterday, when your mom calls, assess whether that works for you, and then verify with your H. Then when your daughter gets a call, the same thing, she asseses whether it works for her, then comes to you all about the change of plans. He probably wouldn't have minded her going if she let him be part of the decision process, like how he was happy with you going earlier, and like how you were happy with her going. You have a lot of success here to build on

Cat, I'm often in the same position with my two teenagers. H gets annoyed when they have plans and they think he resents anyone having fun because he's so miserable. My IC told me that they both need to work out their own issues and that I should stay out of it. Sometimes that's more difficult than it seems because they'll call me and ask if they can go to XYZ, I'll say "yes" and then H will find out and get mad because he wasn't consulted. Or I'll tell them to ask him and he'll say "yes", then turn around and tell me he only said "yes" so he didn't have to be the bad guy in the family.

I just try to stay out of the line of fire as much as possible. I think what you did with your daughter and husband was perfect.

Not quite sure what you meant about the planning a fun evening; I guess make sure the night before was good? Kind of like when you know something stressful is coming up so you make sure H gets good SF before? lol

Anyway, after H came in the room and we kept talking, I mentioned to both of them to remember we have the calendar that needs to be mounted in the kitchen (it came down when we painted and I can't figure out how to get it back up); and once it goes back up, we will ALL be writing down any plans so we can check it for conflicts and to be aware of what's going on. So they seemed ok at that point (though he didn't offer to hang it up like I was hoping, lol).

How's that?

Thanks, OH!

Mind you, I don't intend to do it again, get them together to talk like that. But I thought if I do it this once, the next time they do it, I can just say 'sorry, but I'm not getting in the middle any more; you two work it out.' Kind of like a precedent.

Both of these are good! And good for you for learning to speak up for yourself and to say to leave you out of it!

I'm curious about something - honestly curious, not trying to get you to see or say something - you mentioned something about, if you know there's something stressful coming up, to make sure you give H good SF the night before? Is this something you do, or that people commonly do? I never thought of doing something like that. It seems a bit manipulative to me but maybe it's just being smart? It also seems... well, not what I'd like to think of in terms of loving SF. But I think I'm not strong in the "womenly wiles" dept, so I'm curious if this is something most wives do.

I've done it a few times. Unfortunately, it works. He gets treated, so he doesn't feel mis-treated by my abandoning him to go do something else (remember, he wants me to be by his side 24/7). It's been awhile, a couple years, I guess. It's a coping strategy in abusive situations, I would think. One of the main tenets of such situations is to know - as best as you can - what ticks them off, and to find ways to prevent it. Heavy-duty abuse victims virtually spend their whole life thinking about this anger thing and what to do to keep from being the receiver of it.

Cat, my H usually initiates the making plans with us for the night before he leaves. For example, he'll say something like, "The Oscars are going to be on Sunday, you guys want to watch it together?" Or he'll say he's making barbeque, would I like to invite our friends A and B over? So I meant, if you're enthusiastic about it, you could try making some plans like that with them.

I like that idea. It's better than my current "plan" of grumping around the house cus I'm not happy about him leaving.

Other ideas are to rent movies or have a family game night (unless that only works for younger kids). Or a grownup game night.

Thanks for clarifying about the SF stuff. Ok, good to know it isn't something I should try to adopt. Thinking about that makes me angry in several different ways, so I'll leave it alone.

Would you consider you have a lot of years of not doing this, so doing it just once doesn't really make sense?

That what you've done here is changed your dance, your response...so promising yourself to continue to respond in this healthy, loving manner, is ongoing?

Doesn't mean you have to run up and down the stairs connecting them...I hear that in your statement. I'm offering a flexible repeat performance. Assurance from love and understanding. Maybe progressive...where after two more times, you begin to remove yourself from the room (and I applaud you for minimizing your role once they began speaking) since you seemingly removed your input; then your presence...then your involvement?

For your not speaking for so many years, I am again asking you to speak your ownership here...and that you do just once..."I'm really sorry for my part in choosing to act like a go between in your relationship with each other. I know you both love each other very much and I know your relationship with each other is really important to both of you, as well."

And your repeated boundary...no "sorry" in there..."I know you will work your concerns out with each other directly. I believe in you."

Don't do the fake sorry's so the real ones are respectful.



Way to go, Cat. Keep rockin' your life, 'k?

LA

Thanks, LA. You're very right. I will do that. I was afraid that if I said I was going to do that again, you guys would say I was controlling things, lol.

One good thing I've been doing is I've mentioned to H 3 times now that I'm participating in this spring's neighborhood garage sale. I've told him that I'm purging the house because, like we discussed (we both want to leave this neighborhood), once we get our finances in order and since D18 is going away to college, I want to get rid of everything we don't NEED. So he's been forewarned! And I've been practicing how to bring up the subject with him about going through his stuff. Any suggestions?

Today, I told D18 that I wanted her to help me do garage sale purging for 30 minutes, she said which room, and I said hers. She's heard that before, but this time I told her to stop and realize that she'll be gone in a few months, and I want her to look at her room with new eyes - that the next time she comes back, IF she comes back, it will be as an adult, so we need to get rid of the high school D18. Classic look on her face, lol. But she did good; we filled 5 boxes in 30 minutes.

Cat...along with other changes, I hear you're pleased with your choice to tell H ahead of time what you are preparing for with the garage sale...

and that you're taking steps towards that goal...that reality...and that you have repeated in your "preparation" with H and anticipating his response.

You aren't basing your choices on his possible response (which is what I'm hearing you did before, routinely), is that correct?

Seems to me you know you haven't just done this with H...you've done it with DD, friends, FOO...and now you're saying you just did it with us, posters here on MB.

You made a choice (to commit to not connecting H and DD when they had issues and tried to use you as a go-between...just stepping out as not a go-between) and then you realized it was based on our possible response.

Would you consider that in your old code, there were permittable lies to self and others, in certain situations...maybe even within the go-between, the bridge or conduit, you were before?

I ask because these lies to self sometimes are the reason we don't trust ourselves, even when we check our intent, doublecheck our actions, choices...and over time, even when we do and are acting differently, the distrust remains...persists.

One of the ways we keep signalling ourselves to more...and changing our actions comes first, then we go further. Why you may research, study and stay aware...and still discount and distrust yourself...and removing these permitted lies is a really clean way to change your awareness and deepen your intimacy with H and DD.

Honesty is intimacy...acting from it is an act of love, as well.

Just another step...wanted to share it with you.

LA

P.S. I had this thought while writing this...I believe I tore apart my DH when really, I was trying to unravel myself.

LA, it's just that I thought I had a pretty good handle on how to deal with such things, before, before I've spent a year and a half here, learning even more. So now, I always come here assuming there's another angle I haven't considered yet. I thought I had read posts telling me to stay away from it, from them, that that was enabling, so I assumed that me stepping in like that was really not a good choice. That's why I asked about it. I felt like I needed to step in, at least once, or it wouldn't go anywhere. But the reinforcement makes sense.

I read an interesting post on the OCPD forums about how to talk to an OCPD person:
http://ocpd.freeforums.org/i-want-t84.html

This person said:
"I used alot of "I wants" and "I don't wants" instead of more polite ways of asking for things.

Examples:

"I don't want that there"

"I want more sugar in my tea"

"I want that taken off and put somewhere else"


It was quite successful. DH didn't bat an eyelid, or tell me I was being rude. He just set to, and did the things. I was surprised at the outcome.

Not a comfortable way of communicating for me, but he almost seemed relieved I wasn't giving him choices."

Wow, thanks. I never would have thought of doing that. It seems completely the wrong way. Hmm...