Good for you M! One of the things we stress around here is to protect yourself financially because waywards do stupid things... they don't care about finances, normal day-to-day concerns, etc... all focus is on "me me me me me".

As for your "home", I'd be pitching a hissy if I knew OW was stepping foot in my castle. I'd definitely have it fumigated if you ever move back in. If it was me, I'd put it up for sale (to heck with the current state of the market) cause I'd never want to live there again knowing such evil walked the halls. Your H would probably feel the same way if he ever escapes WH.

I'm rooting for you!

Queenie & PrincessMeggy:

Q - right now I've got so much anger that I'm sure I can get some up to you in that part of the country. I busted my backside for 5 years to build that company into something for our retirement and the s.o.b. destroyed it because of "me, "me, "me". That's so irresponsible that I'd be advising a stranger to take him apart, but to do it to a spouse???? To himself??? To his kids???

Thanks for the support. I need it, because the title of this thread is right on. I go this way for a while then take 2 steps back. "Wavering" is perfect. But today - not so much!!

PrincessMeggy - thanks for your support and thanks for pushing me on this point. I'm very interested to see what happens - if not via Dancin' Machine's "Shiny", then from someone else I hope he can refer me to. I fired off an email to my D attorney and told him I was seeking counsel here (in the state where the business is, where I'm hanging out) and am expecting the utmost coordination between the two attorneys in the two states to position me in such a way to maximize my options WRT D (in MO, where house is) and potential lawsuit in TX (where biz is).

I love the idea of two suits, one right after the other, or both intertwined - whatever the legal eagles think is best. :twobyfour:


To everyone - I just talked to my stepson there who said that his dad is "all upset" because I didn't respond to his latest attempt to get his "get out of jail free" card - which he made by offering to sign over the house equity (3/4 of which is MY MONEY) to support a loan app for the company. (Nice of him to "offer" to make my own money available to me.)

According to SS2 (Stepson2 ; I have 2 Stepsons and 2 Stepdaughers and they're all at least 20 years of age and disgusted with Dad), WH was complaining that I wasn't responding to his attempts to settle the D quickly - that "the best thing for everyone" is just to work this out and get it over with quickly. WH was whining that I wouldn't speak with him and then had withdrawn again into NC after the exchange of emails and letters on the topic of the SBA loan. (THANKS - EVERYONE - for putting my Plan B "break" into my face and ordering me to go back to Plan B. It obviously worked - not just for me but in terms of impact on WH.)

Apparently SS2 responded by telling WH that all of this is his own fault, first by having the A and then by refusing to talk with me when I wanted to talk about the D and the impact to the business. SS2 reminded WH that I had been very explicit about the effect that filing D could have on funding the big contract and that WH had ignored me and threatened to file if I didn't. SS2 went on to tell WH that he (WH) is very immature.

I'm really proud of SS2. But then again, this is the second time his Dad has pulled this routine - he ended his first marriage (to SS2's mother) the same way. SS2 is really angry because he moved into our house last Jan specifically to get to know his Dad - who he's never lived with - right when WH/OW started going at it hot and heavy. Still - this kid has always longed to be closer to his Dad and this has to be hurting him. I told him he was pretty wise for a 20-year old.

SS2 then filled me in on the fact that the ho' is at the house 5 nights out of 7 - and that SS2 came home early from work last Sat to find them making out in the living room. He left. Dad (WH) apologized to him later and SS2 simply said "I didn't appreciate it" and walked out of the room. I started making gurgling noises - at which point SS2 remembered he's not supposed to tell me things like this and started apologizing profusely.

Interestingly - maybe because I'm pissed off and feeling empowered today? - while it made me more pissed off, it didn't hurt, and the kid and I actually laughed over his (SS2) faux pas - then he said he'd try to watch it and I agreed.


But- Princess Meggy - my RAGE of the past couple of days is definitely being fueled by the input from OWxH and now from SS2 about all the sleep overs. No, I will never set foot in that house again. As to whether to sell it - we'll see how all the financial stuff turns out. Selling a big house on an acre right now is damn near impossible; if I force a sale I could wait for years to see the money out of it (indeed, that is the situation that OW and OWxH are now in). Might be a better strategy just to pull as much equity out as can be managed in a re-fi and then go after all the rest of his assets through the suit in TX, assuming I am able to file one here.

I still have stuff in that house that I want out of it, though, and I think I probably will have to get it all fumigated.

Thanks for listening to this rant - and thanks for all the support and the "noodging".

for all of you!!!

- M

Miriam, I got nothing.
Just wanted to say I've been following your thread and you are one amazing woman.

Well, gee, Turtlehead - don't know what to say - except thanks!! You gave me a lift.

- M

You are doing good Mirium. BS's need to get good and angry once in a while. We need to stand up for ourselves and not let the wayward get away with everything.

Keep up the good work...

Thank you, Chai.

I don't know what opened the flood gates but I'm definitely "emoting" - dreamed about him/this mess and woke up at 5:30 am in tears...eventually just got up. Had another yelling match with the WH-in-my-head around 10:00 am this morning (I actually yelled; the house is empty this morning so I vented.)

I was so depressed (complete with suicidal ideation/impulses) the last week of Dec. and the first two weeks of Jan - this is definitely an improvement - I guess - I'm just holding on for the ride. Maybe it's just more of the rollercoaster.

At least I'm mad at the person I should be mad at rather than taking it out on me.

- M

That's a step in the right direction. This isn't about you. None of it is. What your WH has done is ALL ON HIM. Got it?

You deserve some TLC from YOU.

Are you seeing an IC?

No. Not yet. Will if I need to. Brief background -

Been there/done that at 4 different points in my life - 7 years from ages 23-30; again during first marriage 2 years, then again after loss of baby for 3 years (from 42 to 45).

Then there's the 4 years of therapy while I learned to be and then was a therapist - which I was for 11 years.

Finally, after 20 years of hypomanic episodes punctuated with the occasional Major Depression (about once a decade), I was diagnosed as Bipolar II when 44 (7 years ago) and on meds since. MUCH better.

I am doing a 12 step group 3X/week, plus talking to friends regularly. When the depressed stuff got really bad I upped that to 5X/week for the 12 step group and 6 days in a row on the phone to my best friend. It simmered down and went away completely when I got pissed off (which is what needed to happen.) For me, the red flags requiring me to seek clinical help are:

1) suicidal ideology lasting more than 3 consecutive days, or
2) suicidal thoughts coupled with planning - at any time, doesn't have to last any more than 10-15 minutes - and I'm on the phone to a shrink. That hasn't happened yet.
3) Social withdrawal. When I stop talking to anyone for more than a few days, it's a really bad sign.

The real "key" to me, mood-wise, is sleep. It's the first thing to go and the longer it is disrupted, the worse I get. The key to managing that is exercise, and I started back to the gym as well about two weeks ago. Hit it hard yesterday and last night I slept 7 1/2 hours - the longest since D-day back in July. Took the day off today to clean house and am hitting the gym again this afternoon.

My best friend has known me for 35 years and is also a good "check" for me. I've definitely had days where I've thought about it. I kept thinking I was going to have to hit a really low point sooner or later, and I think the first two weeks of January were it. Business collapsed, I broke plan B to get WH (and business partner, unfortunately) involved in trying to save it (that was dumb - and it stirred me up) - post-holidays, you name it - it was all there.

Thanks for the "ping" on it, though...never hurts to revisit and check on whether it's time or not.

- M

Just a quick update - with Dancin' Machine's/Brits Brat referral, finally spoke with "Shiny" - he can't really take the case (as I suspected) because I filed D in another state - but does think I have a civil case against WS for "breach of fiduciary duty" re: the company. Thinks jurisdiction in TX should be no problem because company is here (and now I am, too). Finally, referred me to a civil litigator - I have a call into him.

Here's the thing I'm trying to balance. Right now I'm thinking that I can get WH out of my business - lock, stock, barrel - not worry about him any more, including telling him where to stick his investment money that he wants back (less than a third of what I invested, and neither of us getting anything back for a long, long while, if ever, because of the state the company's in since he tanked it.) The way to do that is simply to threaten to file the civil suit in TX and use that as a BIG 2 X 4 to get him to back down in MO, give me what I want and go away.

And I can't tell you how MUCH I want him out of my business.

But. Big But. If I use this leverage I may well really really end the M. The D was filed for "legal mechanics" reasons and I have been clear every step of the way that that's all it is, I don't want it and in fact want to work on the M. However, once I threaten a second filing - this time a civil suit looking for damages - he'll really view it as piling on.

Trying to decide what I need to do, here. If I threaten to file here I may lose any hope of recovery of M. If I don't I'm stuck with him in some shape or form in the business. Someone who's judgment I absolutely DO NOT TRUST who will have veto power for things like loans, etc.

I guess I'm leaning toward getting him out of my business (and finances and livelihood) and hoping that if he really ever wanted to come back, he'd find a way to get past all that. Which I don't think he will, anyway.

Thoughts?

- M

You have up to two years to file your civil suit (from the date he first caused/or you became aware of damages).

How will you get him out of your business? Through the divorce or the civil suit? Or is there a board where he can be voted out? Does he hold an office? Is he an owner? Lots of legal stuff to clear up to get this done.

If you want the divorce, I vote for doing the divorce and the civil suit at the same time... piling it on as you say, but that's just me.

If you want a shot at recovery, then you might want to wait on the civil suit... or not file it at all... but... are you prepared to go on with him in the buisness if you guys DO recover? Could he handle being OUT of the business if you did recover?

I guess you need to decide FOR SURE what you want before you start the legal manuevers.

Hi, PM:

Turns out I've got 4 years from when he caused the damages, so there's time.

In brief, I want him out of the company whether or not we recover.

Re: strategy - my thought had been to go through with the divorce and use the threat of the civil suit to get him to let go of the company. Under MO law, he's entitled to half because it was started during the marriage. However, his p.o.v. is that he's willing to get out entirely if I will "refund" him the 30K (I say 24K) he invested in the company.

Quibbling over amounts aside, the issue here for me is that his investment was in return for me picking up costs for his children. So, over the past five years (since his investment) I've picked up tuition, paid childrens' allowance while at college, picked up car registration and insurance, paid for
#1 daughter's trip to Italy, etc. etc. While it would take some backtracking to figure out actual $$ to determine if he's really "gotten back" the entire amount of the investment, the issue now is that he's decided to "forget" he ever said that and demand the entire amount be refunded to him as part of the divorce settlement. I have several issues with this:

1) It's completely dishonest and amounts to rewriting history (again).
2) Were I to forget about #1 - he tanked the company by insisting on filing divorce. I invested over 100K in the company - including all my retirement savings. At present, the company is worth < 0, is in the red because of his actions. I'm not going to get anything back unless things change. Why should he?

He's on the board. It is a close hold C Corp so there were only two board members (he and I). The plan was to ramp up the board once we had the contract in hand and there were real assets to start thinking about long-term. I can vote him off since I hold 80% of the shares, but that opens ME up to a civil suit in TX.

I'm going to break this into two posts because there's JUST been another development.

- M

PM: (Part 2)

The lawyer in TX who would file the civil suit thinks I should change the filing in MO to adultery and throw the book at WH, then file the civil suit after all is said and done. He thinks its better to keep them separate. My attorney in MO (divorce guy) wanted me to throw the adultery book at him from Day 1, but I didn't. I wanted to try for a settlement on a no-fault basis, in part because I felt that was more advantageous for trying for recovery later - and also because its less expensive all-around.

An important piece of this is that WH says I put in 50K to the house (it was 56K, + there's been appreciation) and he put in 30K to the business. His "offer" to get out of my life and my business is for me to "pay him back" the 30K by taking it from the 50K, leaving me with 20K as a my settlement - and all ties are severed.

HOWEVER. I received WH's finances this morning and there's a loan there for around 35K that I have no knowledge of. (He refused to submit his finances until threatened with a court order and the paper he finally submitted has no detail - no account numbers, no bank addresses/phone numbers, no information other than the mortgage info, which I knew about, and a new car loan for #2 daughter, which I have questions about but is basically understandable - but still no detail, even on those.) The 35K loan, howver, has ABSOLUTELY no documentation and is suspiciously close to the amount he wanted me to sign for before I left the house - he was trying to get me to agree to open up an equity line of credit (right, like I'm going to give him access to the equity in the middle of this mess.)

He's tried 3 times now to get me to accept the 20K settlement and end the divorce proceedings "in one fell swoop". Last week he expressed to son #2 his complete bewilderment and upset as to why I didn't just "settle" (I believe that, as part of his "entitlement psyche", he really thought I'd just take his "deal" and let go.)

That belief of his is a key component of everything that follows next.

About a month ago I became suspicious that he might have ignored the law and gotten some unsuspecting bank to open up an equity line of credit on the house without me (it requires my co-signature.) He and OW have been shopping for wood floors for our house and talking about all other kinds of improvements. I have no clue where that money would come from (she hasn't got it) other than from a line of credit. I raised the flag about my suspicions to my attorney at that time.

As of reviewing what he did submit today, I think that's exactly what he did. Here's the math:

74K equity in the house
201K mortgage payments remaining
House worth about 275K

35K "unknown loan" - if equity - leaves about 39K equity still in.

20K "settlement for stupid BS" (had I taken it, as he clearly expected me to) leaves about 20K equity still in.

That's 10% of the remaining mortgage payoff - the bare minimum he'd have to keep in the house to be able to keep it and have the line of credit without refinancing again to buy me out.

If I apply typical alcoholic/WS "logic", I think he figured that taking out an equity line of credit would be just fine (if we ignore the little matter of the law) because I was SURELY going to accept his offer of 20K to get out of the marriage and get him out of the business. That way he could get the line going to make all the improvements on the house that he and OW have been talking about (plus make it harder for me to force him out.) It's ALL ABOUT his happiness, after all!

It never really occurred to him that I would say no. Which means he thought he could snow the bank and get away with all this, free and clear. He expected me to settle so he wouldn't ever have to disclose his finances (that's what his OW did; she settled and didn't disclose. Gosh, wonder where he got that idea?) He thought if he could just get me to go for it the issue would never come up; that's why he stalled on the submittal while he tried.

3 times.

He really thinks he's entitled to everything in the entire marriage except for 20K and a business HE KNOWS is on the verge of bankruptcy.

I put 56K down on the house, plus it's appreciated 10K - so I'm looking for 61K on the house alone from one source or another.

From MY point of view, if he's done this (and the math works perfectly) it means he's stolen access to my money, because I'm NOT going to "refund" his 24K or 30K or whatever he thinks it is as part of a divorce settlement after he tanked the company - AND I want him to pay for my move back to TX - AND I want other settlement stuff, like some of his damn retirement - AND I want my 61K from the house.

All of this is revolving solely around the house in his thinking because he's refused to put his other assets out there. It looks as though he thinks he can snow me there, too. For example - the only retirement he listed actually has loans against it (which he didn't disclose, so it looks on paper like that retirement is accessible, which it isn't) and as for his Navy retirement, which is the big enchilada - well, there he wrote "unknown" for the amount available.

More dodging. There are additional examples in the papers I'm holding in my hand.

I know this is long. I congratulate anyone who's stuck with it; I'm hoping it has some value as a sort of a primer on divorce strategy 101.

Here's the bottom line for me. The title of this thread, "Wavering", has always been apt, and never moreso than today. If what I suspect is true, then he's continuing to lie - lied to the bank, lying to me, lying to my attorney, lying to the court, probably lying to his attorney (or at least, leaving things out.)

I can't negotiate under a "no-fault" approach, under these circumstances. No one could - or should. Nor do I want him in my company for another second - he's already demonstrated he's dangerous to it and to me.

Finally, he's an ALCOHOLIC who is off the wagon, in addition to being a wayward. I do love him - the "him" that is sober and non-wayward. But at this point I don't believe there's any hope for recovery of the marriage. MB doesn't work with addicts. And I believe that the best I can do for him - REALLY, the VERY BEST THING I can do for him - is to hold him completely accountable for all of his actions. Without malice. While protecting myself.

The sooner he hits bottom (if he does), the more likely that some day, he will recover - whether we do, or not.

So. Here's what I'm thinking:

1) Monday I instruct my attorney to file sanctions against him in court for failure to respond. His response lacks all meaninful detail, making it impossible to verify - and it is misleading - therefore, it is non-compliant.
2) I instruct my attorney to file subpeonas for all his financial records. (No more waiting). I want everything ASAP.
3) I instruct my attorney to get ready to change our filing from "no-fault" to adultery.
4) Monday next we have our first case conference. I'm going. I won't look at him. I won't talk with him. Attorney does it all. If he continues on this track, we disengage and leave - then change the filing.
5) I hold off on the civil suit and wait to see how the divorce plays out. If I can get him the hell out of the company in the divorce, then I probably won't file. But I'll leave the option open.
6) I surrender it all to G-d and let go of my marriage.


Here's my one remaining question. I DO want my husband to recover - in all ways. I'm going to MO a couple of days early to see stepson #2. I'm seriously considering sending WH an email on Friday evening to ask him if he wants to meet on Sunday for 1/2 hour (the case conference is on Monday.) I'll tell him in the email that I don't really have anything to talk about - just want to give him the opportunity to talk with me, prior to the conference, if he has something he wants to say. I'll make it clear that I'll leave the discussion if there is anything other than civil discourse.

If he does this, then I'll listen. I suspect he would try to persuade me to settle. I'll tell him I'm not going to make any decisions; just there to listen. After he is done, I will tell him that I love him and would like to recover our marriage. But - I will also tell him that I don't want to be married to him so badly that I will allow him to continue hurting me financially. Calmly, I will tell him that anything I do from now on, I do to protect myself and my future, and that I'm hoping he will remember that. I will reiterate that the door remains open (given the conditions in the PBL.) Then I'll thank him for coming, and leave.

I've thought alot about this. I know it is "breaking Plan B", but I think it's imperative if there's ever to be any chance of recovery. Otherwise, he will take everything that happens from that point forward as a declaration of war. I know my H, and understand my WH. He's an addict. So, he will view my actions as war anyway, no matter what I say - I certainly can't stop him - but at least I will have spoken the words. At some point, perhaps years in the future, he may be able hear them for what they were.

But if I don't speak them, right now at this exact juncture, there is no opportunity for that to happen.

I am sincerely interested in feedback. And I'm sorry this is so long - but thought the whole picture is important. (But maybe it's not!! - I tend to overdo the details!)

Thank you.

- M

M-
I had a little bit of trouble following your post, but probably because I'm tired. While right now I can't do the numbers, I think the bottom line is that you don't want to declare war, but simply do what is right for you and let WH suffer the consequences of his adultry. And if the company is worth zero, then he gets zero. I'm in the same situation as you are. My business is struggling as well. In my case, my WH is trying to distance himself from it as far as possible. Of course he would want any profit there, but he doesn't want to assume any of the debt. I'm fighting because I feel that my business is struggling as a direct result of his A. I went through the BS state of depression and let things slide which has caused problems for me now.

And it's just my opinion, but I would not try to talk with him. On the day the movers came to clear our house, I tried to talk with WH but I quickly found out that you just cannot rationalize with an irrational wayward. Several posters here (Bugs, Mimi, Pm and others) tried to warn me against it but I didn't listen. I was sure I could reason with him, but I got more venom than I bargained for. I just got more hurt out of it. Just keep referring him to your Plan B letter and let your atty handle things.

And for what it is worth, my WH looked at the whole Plan B thing as a declaration of war.

Good luck on whatever you decide to do. Yours sounds like a complicated case that may drag on for several months. It's draining.

I have to agree; talking will do no good. It won't even look like you're trying to be fair; he'll consider it a trick, once he finds out what you are planning. I know you want to recover, but honestly, once he has hit rock bottom, whether or not you met with him for 30 minutes...he won't even remember it. Stay strong. In the end, you being hard and strong and smart will be the best for BOTH of you, and he may someday realize that.

Yes!


Double Yes!


If you do this, this WOULD be the way to do it, but you must go in with NO EXPECTATIONS. Chances are he won't "hear" a word and will spend the time "convincing" you that his way is the easier way... which may send you back to wavering and second guessing yourself.

But this is YOUR life and YOUR marriage. You know him (or at least the man he WAS) better than anyone. You can weigh the risks... you're in business, you know about that... and decide whether the risk to your sanity and resolution is worth it.

Just a quick note

Thanks to those who responded to my last post a couple of weeks ago.

The case conference was cancelled because my attorney filed a motion for a change of judge - long story, not important - so none of the above transpired.

I'm still in Plan B.

Oldest stepdaughter called and told me WH is talking about OW with sentences like "I'm not going to marry her tomorrow or anything" - meaning they're talking about marriage. She realized what she'd said as soon as she said it and apologized...which I accepted then turned the conversation to how she's doing with all this. No surprise from him; when he's in for a penny he's in for a pound. Still hurts though. Alot. (2 days of nothing but crying and lack of concentration at work.) But am trying to focus on the kids who are backing away from dad more and more; too painful and confusing for them.

Have been consumed with trying to save the company. Good news is that I have let myself take some time here and there to do some fun stuff. It's been so long I thought I'd forgotten how. But I haven't.

Have been completely off the boards so am way behind and will try to catch up on other folks' threads.

Hugs to all.

- M

Thanks for sharing even the detailed financial stuff, M.

I say this because my WH is D-ing me and I'm in the fact finding mode collecting bank statements, credit card backup, etc. And he, also, used our home equity line to piss away on OW and himself thinking I would not find out.

Like I wouldn't question him taking $33,000 off the line in October? When I asked where it went, he said it was "gone" -- "spent on DD's car and a few bills." DD'a used car for 16th b-day was $7,000. Where's the other $26,000 a-hole??? I may be a BS and may still not be thinking straight about A shock and year of pain, but I know that $26,000 does not just disappear!!!

He seems to think I will accept him paying house and equity line until kids move out, us selling the house, then splitting equity.
Fat chance there will even be ANY equity.

But...home equity line debt is huge -- even bigger than mortgage. And I don't want to be liable for half of that if I wait for a few years and sell. It needs to be cleaned up with D or will haunt me down the line. He needs to be held accountable for his financial stupidity.

So keep the details coming.

Holyheart:

I relate. Totally. Sad to say because I wish you weren't going through this.

I asked my attorney to subpoena the records for what appears to be the equity line and also to either subpoena or prepare to set up a deposition for the retirement info. Haven't heard anything back but then again haven't asked, so this thread will remind me to ping attorney tomorrow.

I didn't sign to open a home equity line - he tried to get me to - so if he did this he did it without my sig. We _may_ have some leverage there but I really don't know at this point.

Completely agree that all this has to get cleaned up during the divorce or it will haunt you. That's exactly how I feel. Not sure how well this works in practice but am sure gonna try.

I'll keep posting as I learn stuff.

Hang in there -

- M

Quick update - been gone for a while. Popped back up yesterday/today on other folks' threads.

Basically, nothing has happened on the D. Still waiting for results of subpoenas for financials. Still waiting on a reschedule for change of venue.

WH continues to observe Plan B. Works for me.

Sent him another letter (as required by Texas law) in lieu of a shareholders' meeting for the business. Asked him to sign and return. He hasn't. Also fine by me.

Have had several good days - sometimes 3 in a row - in the last three weeks. Progressing by fits and starts. Last three nights, though, bad dreams about WH/OW. Very little sleep. Hoping for better tonight.

But progressing, and that's what matters. I know I'll have hard times again once the whole D thing really gets under way. I'm so glad you're here - thanks.

Hope everyone is healing.

- M