Yeah, results. I need to remember this is a long winding road, not some instant path to ALL BETTER.

Had some good clarity while working out. That same feeling I've had even during the affair where I realized I just need to keep the family going as though I was alone, and if my partner joins back in, good. If not, I've kept my family going and can keep going. It's that centered, peaceful feeling you hope will start outlasting the anxiety and pain and uncertainty. I think it's one of those things you arrive at and almost don't realize you're there. It's not til a ways down the road when you look back at how miserable you were, and look at how you feel now, and hey, I feel better. I feel whole. I'm probably years from that now, but I know it can happen.

Barely any contact with wife today which has me anxious. She's going to a happy hour with female co-oworker which also has me anxious. Tired of being anxious. Tired of being a single parent. Tired, but OK.

MB principle require a 25 hours a week to get restarted. 15 hours when everything is settled.

Are you doing this?

Called the wife to get her schedule for the evening's happy hour thing. She's immediately defensive and peeved. I tell her that this is just where we're at. Things are extremely fragile and it's hard for me to even be OK with her going to this, so I need some accountability. She acknowledges, but is still peeved. Says she will be home by midnight. I say that's too late for me. How about 10:00? That's 5 hours. Says she'll call me back in half an hour when she's done with work to talk about it. Still peeved.

My first reaction is anger. But, then I realize, I'm not afraid of her anger. I'm not doing things out of fear anymore. I won't do things for fear of losing the marriage. If she can't understand the need for accountability right now, and the difficulty I have in being comfortable with her going to a bar without me, she's way too deep in the fog, and I don't need to accommodate that. I will approach this with no anger. Just a statement of boundaries, and let her live within them or not. No LBs, just no doormat. It's hard!!!!

Let's see... 6 or 7 hours on a date night, probably 2 or 3 hours in the evening after kids go to bed... I'd say wer're at 16 or 17 maybe. I'll try to add in more lunches. That might get me to the magic 25, or at least close.

The trouble I'm having... She will use work as an excuse to avoid spending so much time together. She has come to the conclusion that this is her MASTER excuse, the one I can't argue with because money is tight. I'll tell her that we need to put our marriage first, and her employers will understand that. She can still work her butt off.

I need to stick with the boundaries, in a gentle but firm way. If she can't, I can't keep making my decisions from a position of fear. Steve McGandhi!!!!!

Wife called back to discuss the evening. We were both cheerful and calm. We took a stab at the policy of joint agreement. I said that I want to feel secure that our marriage is continuing to mend, and I'd like to not worry about her being at a bar. She said she'd like to have some free time and make this business connection in the face of her uncertainty at work. I asked how we both get what we want. She agreed to call a couple times, send a picture of herself at the bar and if she is running after 10:00, she'd call. Not my favorite arrangement, but it was the best we could do. She acknowledged that I have every reason to worry and she apologized.

She called at 7:30 to update me, say she's going to keep going, but wanted to call and let me know the evening was going well and she's where she said she is. Said she loved me. Can't tell if this is buttering me up or actual heart-felt sentiment. In the end, she's mostly getting what she wants tonight. Sigh. I guess I'll just see when she gets home.

I think that she has to evaluate this time as a way to construct a revived marriage.

Public places without each other doesn't cut it.

Uh yes, I wholeheartedly agree about that. What I'm unsure about is how to address it. I asked her to consider my feelings as part of our agreement tonight. She's kinda living up to it, but I still feel like sh*t. She just called saying she's still there, still 'cultivating this work relationship'. Said she's calling because I wanted her to, but she really needs to concentrate on her work, blah blah. Almost note for note the same call I got 5 hours earlier. Said she sent a photo to me but I don't have it. I just feel like the stupid codependent spouse who desperately wants to give the alcoholic the benefit of the doubt. I mean I do think she is at this bar with this woman, but I am angry as hell that she puts so much before me at this stage. I told myself I would not wait up at night for her again, yet here I am. At least she's calling, but I don’t really feel much better.

Hopefully I can clear some of this up in my session with Dr. Harley today. Sick and tired. Tired. Weary.

Hang tough Z!

How does this night compare to when she was active in the A? Would she have even consulted with you about going out after work? Would she call while she was out to check in?

She may be pushing at the boundaries a little because she feels hemmed in. Was last night progress in your mind? What about in her mind?

When I used to work at college I saw lots and lots of freshman who were under their parents thumbs while in HS. Those kids would self destruct socially after getting to college and having NO boundaries. And from the other side of the spectrum -- those kids with little to no parental supervision would have difficult time with rules and regs of the residence halls. They would lash out at my staff and the "boundaries" that were in place.

You and you wife didn't have good boundaries before...and now you are trying to reign in the horses. It's going to take time. And with her still being in some fogginess...well, that will make it take even longer. Baby steps.

DNU1, you are correct. Last night was an improvement from the affair. When she got home I was calm and cheerful at 2:45 in the morning. She said she had tried to make sure she was in contact... called a couple times, texted several times, sent a photo. I didn't get any texts or photos. She said, uh oh. Showed me her phone... she had sent them, and I hadn't received them. This is a phone she just got yesterday, and she hadn't received any of the texts that I sent her either. So, phone malfunction. Yes, she was making an effort. That's different than the affair. I'm just angry that the main thing I asked for, that she not stay out too late, was pretty much ignored, even though followed with an explanation and apology. She said something like, "why are you still awake? Oh, you didn't get any of my texts... I'm surprised you're in such a good mood..." I stuck with Plan A even though my Taker was very very anxious. The result was some nice cuddling, making out and ya know, other stuff. Then drifted off to sleep in each other's arms, woke up with her cuddling up tight to me. The kids even slept until 7:00 this morning!!! It was a miracle!

I find myself kinda lingering in anger this morning though. I keep telling myself, SAVE the marriage FIRST, FIX the marriage, after. My new mantra. I guess when were both a lot more invested in the marriage again, we can negotiate boundaries better.

Thanks DNU1 for some perspective. I find myself wanting to approach this thing with tough love. It has been one of the few things that's worked. Dr. Harley seems to advocate a little more Zen approach, which I think you're doing admirably, DNU1. It just feels like I'm being a doormat sometimes and I'm tired of it. Tired of sleepless nights.

Tonight is date night. Kids are going to be at Grandma's all night, so we might even be able to sleep in!!! I'm looking forward to it, and will hold myself to be careful with the liquor and NO relationship talk, unless it's to express happiness.

Oh, very good analogy with the college students and boundaries. Yes, she had obliterated all our previous boundaries months ago, and is resistant to come back into them.

Just had the awkward moment where wife tried to log onto Facebook while I was there reading her posts.

She was very cool and matter-of-fact about it. Said she didn't mind, but felt bad for me. Said she had nothing to hide.

I asked her if she had had any contact with The Dude. Her response:

"No. It sucks some days, but I need to be able to answer that question, so I haven't."

Well that's as good an answer as I can expect right now I think. I hope it's true.

I think you are doing great Zen! If the OM was living in my town, and there could still be contact easily I'm sure I would be a basket case...much more demanding and boundry-ish than you.

Yes, it's hard to draw the line between loving Plan-A husband and doormat sometimes. It is nice when my wife asks what she can do for me and shows progress, but there are times when I think to myself "come on...let's move this train just a little faster!"

Staying up to greet her when she got home was a good plan. I'm sure you being Steve McGhandi-ish calm and no love busters really made an impression on her! Keep that up.

I sometimes want to be mean, cruel and nasty to my wife as sort of a pay-back for her putting me through this AGAIN, but I have to keep thinking back to MB.com principles...And it helps tremendously to read here and read your posts. Give me perspective.

I watch my wife like a hawk and snoop the crap out of all things techy -- e-mail, facebook, phone, text, you name it I'm on it! Don't have voice recorder in her car cause I can see who she's calling -- just her girlfriend mainly, and ME. (note to self, need to check her e-mail today...)

I know it's hard and I sense my wife is further from the fog and withdrawal than yours. But one small slip and she could be right there with your wife. I keep crossing my fingers and making massive deposits in her love bank.

Hang tough my friend! You are making a difference in your life and your marriage!!!

Just finished talking to Dr. Harley. Got to the meat of my uncertainty as far as establishing a direction or waiting for withdrawal to clear more.

He said he felt that this was the window of opportunity. It could get harder, the more I work at it and the more she stays stuck. He said I will just get frustrated and potentially mess things up.

He said wife needs an action plan. He said I should ask her to talk to him. I was thinking there's no way. But guess what?! She just stopped by home, I presented the idea, she agreed without hesitation. Asked about what he was like... I said, "smart, plan-oriented, you'll like him."

I'm going to take a moment to indulge in some hope and jump up and down. Ok, if we can pull off a good date night tonight, I will have made it through the day without a ton of anxiety! That's my measure of a good or bad day these days: How well I keep the anxiety at bay.

DNU1, you might consider asking your wife to talk to him... I know it's hard, but could really help with direction and focus.

Yea, you are probably right Zen. This morning my "taker" is feeling pretty neglected. Give, give, give...and not much in return.

Wife having a plan would be a good thing. Hope her IC Monday will provide her with a little more direction. And meeting with her Doc to review meds and hopefully get her on something that will give her a little more spark (anti-depress meds).

We have date night tonight, so I'm hopefull we can talk more.

I sent her Joseph's Letter via e-mail yesterday...she hasn't brought it up yet. I know she's read it...saw from her e-mail (snoop-DogNU1)

Waiting patiently.

This has been her MO for the duration of our relationship...avoid the uncomfortable talk and let me bring things up. Passive...then AGGRESSIVE when she's fed up.

Ug.

Zen, things sound wonderful! From what you describe, she has made the decision to choose her marriage and unhesitatingly proves it. Jumping up and down sounds appropriate.

Speaking of MOs - I was talking to a friend this morning about all this stuff. Date night was... OK. I had to go hide behind a car to cry at one point, then hide in the bathroom to cry when we got home, and she was just ready to get to some lovin. It was a fun night overall, but there are constant reminders of how far apart we are right now. Just constant bits of conversation and behavior that demonstrate her view of us and me as her husband. There's such a lack of connectedness and respect that it is all I can do to pretend to smile and stand next to her sometimes. Other times it feels like we share so much that it's easy to be around her. So many things she said to me and others were demonstrative of where she's at. VERY little talk of simple home life, kids, husband, our life together, etc. It was mostly talk of her wild past, her partying, her intense work life... really over-the-top brash behavior which has always been part of my wife in party mode, but there's not much balance with the other parts of her life. She's pretty flirty - few boundaries. Really aggressive driving, everybody is out to get her, drinking way too much. This is so similar to her behavior when we were first dating. It was TERRIBLE. She was beautiful and fun and smart, so I tried to look past all the troubling behavior because I was just trying to have fun. I was terribly conflicted because she was more than I could handle at times. As we got more serious, most of this calmed down, particularly when she was in her own apartment and we had started learning to communicate and create goals together. In our married life, she's always been the more fiery one and still made me uncomfortable at parties, but it was at a level I could handle. Now I'm in a position to wonder if she was suppressing this side of herself, or if this is reaction/defense mode for her when she feels lost and depressed and angry. Here I am again to be the stabilizing force, which she'll rely heavily on for awhile, then resent later. Argh!!!

I'm trying to keep the big picture in mind. Save the marriage first, work on the marriage later. There was so much good in our life together, I must remember it. I must remember my children. I'm having so much trouble liking her right now. When we're cuddling in bed, trading jokes and stories of the past, talking about our children, talking about food or travel, making love... this is when I love her. When we're around other people, I feel really uncomfortable. When she's angry and pissy and defensive I can't stand her. I guess I just need to stick around until I see whether or not she addresses these issues. If not, I don't think I can live with them.

I had this horrible vivid dream this morning about the party the night before and a friend telling me she was making out with another guy. I woke up having trouble separating it from reality. She knew something was wrong with me and for once, I didn't want to talk! I didn't want to spoil the good parts of the day before. She kept pressing me, and I thought long and hard before I told her that I kept being reminded of the distance between us, and it made me sad. She asked if I had fun the night before, I said yes. She took it pretty well. Said she was trying not to give into the emotions all the time, just power through, snuggled back into my chest. This is her solution so far. Hopefully Dr. Harley can give her a little more structure to work on than that. Sigh.

Should add that my wife called on her way to work today to tell me a funny story about being carded while buying a lottery ticket (which she does once a year). Can't tell if this is her EFFORT to keep trying to connect with me, or if it is a geniune connection that we share. Either one brings a bit of hope.

Back in the Plan A saddle.

Z: My wife will call to say she got carded at Wally-Mart, or some other place while purchasing alcohol -- she laughs and it makes her feel young again. Must be a woman thing.

On your previous post -- you are doing great. Keep rocking the Plan A and communicating your feeling with your wife in a calm, cool manner. Don't hold anything back -- policy of radical honesty!

I sense she's showing growth and moving forward. It's interesting in that your wife was party animal and calms down as your marriage progressed. My wife completely opposite -- very quiet, introverted and grew more outgoing as our marriage and relationship progressed. Hmmmmm...

I think you are doing great and keeping things held together. Hiding behind a car and heading to bathroom to let your feelings out -- not showing the wife your tears -- Good thing at this point. She needs to see your strength and resolve to keep the marriage going.

Be strong my friend. More later...

Yeah, she does not handle my tears very well these days. Makes her very uncomfortable. This is good that she feels guilt as opposed to indifference. About a week before D-day we got into a HUGE fight. We didn't fight often, so this was a standout. At one point she started being extremely cold and insulting and I was trying to get her to calm down and she acted like I was going to hit her. I had an extreme reaction to this. That she would imply that I would be physically abusive was devastating. It was such a betrayal of what I thought we shared that I burst into tears and cried uncontrollably for half an hour. She didn't seem to care. Her coldness scared the crap outta me. Turns out she was in the middle of an affair and she had to dehumanize me to feel OK with what she was doing. I didn’t know it at the time and I literally regretted ever meeting her in that moment. Thought I had married a pathological monster. I still have that nagging doubt here and there, but I think she's come back from that extreme for now. The alien-infested wayward in it's darkest form!

Last night was going to be a relaxing night at home after our late night before. An old friend called and asked if I wanted to hang out. I want to spend as much time with her as possible, but I knew I'd just fall asleep without much conversation. I decided to go be with supportive friends. It was nice to take a break and vent a little. These are very old friends who are supportive of both of us. It was probably good for WW to put the kids to bed and just have a relaxing evening at home. I need to let her have space to do her own work sometimes too. Part of me always wanting to be there is a fear of letting her out of my sight!

Not much going on today. She's off to work for a few hours. Just pleasant morning chatter today. We're having a friend over tonight for crab and corn chowder. This is one of my wife's friends, but one around whom she feels pretty self-conscious right now. I gotta commend her bravery for facing the music once again. Unfortunately it probably just means she'll be very punchy and guarded. Here's to hoping this will lessen over time and exposure to good friends and family.

Z, isn't it interesting how those pre-DDay events that really confused us now seem all so clear?!! Our WW's were acting strangely yet we did not see the forrest, heck, even the trees through all the FOG! I'm amazed to look back and think about pre-DDay situations and say to myself, "ah-haaaaaa! I see now!"

Yes, my wife does not do well with my tears and being upset. But she's so reserved that I never really know if I'm getting through to her. DDay, I had kidds at friends house and confronted her about e-mails, Vegas, OM when she returned home from work. No tears, just that blank, cold stare from her. No denial, just the cold stare. I wish she would have cried like a baby and begged for forgiveness.

She later said she was expecting me to kick her to the curb. Expected to find her stuff on the driveway for weeks after DDay. Felt she deserved to be "punted" after a 2nd affair.

I think that's why it's has taken her so long to warm up to me and Plan A.

It's good that you headed out with friend and left your wife to take care of kiddos and be at home. I'm glad you have friends who you can vent to. Wish I had some...

And it's huge that your wife is facing the music with her friends and exposure is working for you both. Stay strong.

I'd write more, but my wife is due home soon. She's on vacation all week, so I'm not sure how much MB.com time I'll get this week. Thats' a godo thing, because I will be spending majority of my time with her! Take care my friend. D.