I think what has been helpful for me is that my H is really a good guy. He is my bestfriend and is a great dad. I am very lucky in so many other areas. So I knew I had to let go of some things that I wanted so that I didn't let disappointment and resentment ruin what we did/do have.

Do I wish more for our M and our relationship? Definitely! But he just can not give it for some reason and I can not make him or influence him to do so. I'm just trying to do what I can to make our home a happy one...which inturn is making me happy.

I can see that. If I felt he was my best friend and a great dad, I think I could also do what you are doing. Perhaps it's why I'm still here because until 4-5 years ago, I did feel he was my best friend and good dad. But not anymore. I see him do/say things to the kids that break my heart. And he treats me like the enemy--not anywhere close to a friend.

I would imagine that is difficult to live with and I doubt I would be able to either.

(((OH)))

I used to do all that kind of stuff for my husband and get turned down, he'd even get cross because I was "too demanding" sexually. Sigh.

Thankfully we're learning each other anew and things are better now but my husband still sometimes reacts better to me when I clean the house than when I offer sf, which sucks cos I don't like cleaning..

The new thinking in which I see is something which I believe has been UNSEEN by most people before, at least unseen with understanding.

I believe that before, while I always KNEW that SF was important to my sense of love and wellbeing, I, right along with most everyone it seems, believed that with a GREAT MARRIAGE, SF would come trailing along. I believe that even my counselor thinks this still, in that the marriage must be good before SF 'should' happen.

As I read HNHN and read other books and articles, I have found that this is NOT the case.

I believe that SF is a PART of BUILDING a good marriage. Just as taking out the trash, changing diapers, conversation, affection, etc etc etc... It is essential to the BUILDING of the marriage, not just the whip cream on TOP of a good marriage.

I am terribly sorry that the ladies here have husbands who are unwilling to see the potential of fulfilling their wives ENs. It is truly upsetting, mostly because it is simply the blindness they show to their OWN ENs being met in a much better way. It is one of those feelings that... "If they ONLY KNEW...".

CFIO: I couldn't agree more. I also think many people think that great sex is a side-benefit of a solid marriage instead of an essential building block of same. I've actually always thought it was an essential element, not a benefit--- but it wasn't until I started reading Harley's books, this web site, posting here, etc., that I understood exactly how it all fits together. I often thought there was something wrong with me--that I couldn't "compartmentalize" all the aspects of my day to make SF a priority. I wondered where my sex drive went and how I could have let it go. My husband, who is not privvy to the teachings of Harley, etc., probably feels the same way I did--that the problem somehow lies with me, and if that part were to be fixed, the marriage wouldn't be perfect, but we would be giant steps closer. The problem with that, is that I still always had that nagging feeling of discontent, even when the SF part of our marriage was clicking along fine. Hence a reinforcement of my feeling that something was just wrong with me and my expectations.

But, after reading here, I now understand that there's nothing wrong with me. But there is something seriously wrong with my marriage. My ENs are not getting met on any kind of a consistent basis, and LBers are common. So it's hard for me to sustain my enthusiasm for meeting his ENs when my Love Bank nears empty and I'm so emotionally needy.

That has been a huge eye-opener for me and will be the catalyst in my hopefully setting up a firm boundary--for the marriage to continue, things must change and I need to define specifically what changes I am looking for and to ask him to provide his input on same.

I'd be happy to pull him in the laundry room, etc., but I wind up feeling empty and used when it's a one-way street.

HH, I really liked that analogy with the foggy glass and the wiping it clean. It really motivates me to redouble my weight loss efforts, because I think that may be the foggy glass in my situation. And if I'm mistaken, I'll still be happy to be healthier.

I think there are many people whoi think that way. We had many marriage counsellors who told me "fix the relationship and the sex will follow". Never happened. Maybe because we never fixed it enough. Maybe because, as you say, part of the problem in the relationship was the lack of sex.

To the extent that Harley agrees with the "dominant view", I think he takes as a given that it is so difficult to convince lower libido spouses to engage in unwanted sex that it is easier to help them want sex than to convince them to consent to sex when they aren't in the mood.

Your point is helpful in that it changes the dynamic somewhat. The prevailing view places most of the burden on the higher libido spouse to "improve their game" to get the lower libido spouse on board. Your way of looking at things helps the lower libido spouse see that it is in their interest and partly their responsibility to step up to the plate before the higher libido spouse has made every change the lowwer libido spouse desires. That sex is not the last item to be changed but rather should improve concurrently with incremental improvements by the higher libido spouse.

Or to put it differently, sex should not be the medal you get after you finish the marathon. Sex should be the gatorade you drink at the various hydration stations along the way to help you make it to the finish line.

I completely agree. The problem is so many spouses are waiting for the other to pick up their game before they decide to play. That whole "If she/he would do abc then I would be more willing/more enthusiastic to do xyz for her/him." And the other spouse is thinking the exact same thing. So what happens...nothing but more resentment on both sides.

I honestly believe that if you want something to change...then change yourself...because at the end of the day, that's the only change you can control. If you aren't getting the desired results, then it's time to re-evaluate.

Okay, I can agree with all that you said. But what happens when you've changed yourself as much as you know how, but still no results, at least in the desired area. What is there to re-evaluate? D isn't an option, so just live with it?

JCat, if you changed yourself, and become a skilled negotiator, who is great at finding win win solutions everywhere else outside the bedroom, and spend 15 hours with your W having your most fun time of the week together, and another 15 hours with your family, having fun FC time together, so you are cherishing your W the way HH describes, then what is the block could possibly be left there?

Physical illness? Mental ilness? An OM?

EO, glad to hear that I came up with a good analogy. W and I both have some weight on us but we don't care so much about PA as a primary EN, so we're fortunate in that respect.

Rape. Child abuse. Religious or family indoctrination that sex is evil and bad and wrong and "good girls" don't. Lack of familiarity with their own bodies - they don't know what feels good for themselves so they can't teach their partner what to do. Past behavior from "acting out" stages which leaves them ashamed of their sexual behavior. Disgust with male objectification of females.

In our culture it is perhaps more the exception than the rule that females achieve adulthood feeling comfortable with their own sexuality. The thought that fixing the relationship will fix the sex overstates the case. Fixing the relationship is necessary. In many cases it is far from sufficient.

Hmmmm...if D isn't an option and you have exhausted every other avenue in building a healthy and happy M and you have changed what you can about yourself to help build this and still have no desired changes from your spouse, then I guess you do have to learn to live with it. The re-evaluation comes in to how you will learn to live with it. What can you do to make this "learning to live with it" still bring joy into your life.

If D is not an option, then you have 2 choices...you can either marinate in the misery of what you don't have or you can create joy in what you do have.

Exactly correct. Well said.

I agree. There are times when we have to fix ourselves in order to fix our half of the relationship.

I think the underlying issue comes down to how we value our spouses. If we truly value and love our spouse, then that love and sense of how much we value to whom we've married should in my view translate into our adoption of a consistent other-centered prioritization of meeting our spouses EN's. This, to me, is the basis of the MB system. Both spouses loving one another sacrificially which in turn motivates each spouse to creatively meet the EN's of their mate. Being a narcisist myself by default, I can attribute most of the problems in my M to my narcissism, my unwillingness to remain other centered and to really love my W as God intended her to be loved and cherished. In the MB system, we are taught that in an otherwise damaged M that consists of two emotionally healthy people that just don't know how to love one another well, that if one spouse adopts an other centered approach and starts to love their mate sacrificially, to study their mate, to learn how best to meet their EN's, that their mate will start to respond in kind and increasingly so over time as the love bank is rebuilt and trust returns to the M. If both spouses are other centered, most often this will result in a "meeting in the middle" when it comes to an EN such as SF.

Let me use a personal example. When it comes to SF in my M, I have the higher libido, always have, probably always will. This is probably why I can write with passion and understanding about the whole SF issue, because I've experienced a lot of pain and diversity over the past 15 years of my M surrounding my SF EN. That said, I liked HOLD's analogy of the marathon and the gatorade, so I'm going to expand upon it a bit more. I have asked for SF every other day in order to meet my SF EN. I'd prefer every day, but every other day is acceptable. At first, my W was somewhat shocked by this request, but when I put it into the context of three times a week then it sounded a bit better. Yes, one week it's four times and the next week it's three times, so technically it's 3.5 times a week, but that's harder to grasp. Now, I'd also love to have "rock your world" type SF each time, but since I know that my W has a lower libido, and would ideally only want SF one time a week if she had her choice, so we had some negotiating to do. So, we came to agreement that I would help with as many of the assundry tasks that need doing throughout the weeknights as I could, in an effort to meet her domestic support EN's. Laundry, walking the dog, helping to cook dinner, set the table, get drinks, do the dishes, help with homework, you name it really - whatever needs doing during weeknights. My helping would, we hoped, reduce her stress load during the weeknights and help her to feel more connected and appreciative of me. I've also added in, as per my previous post, little errands we do together to get her out of the house for a 1/2 hour and to listen to her intently during these quick getaways and help meet her conversation EN while also getting her a coffee or an ice cream or whatever it is that she has a taste for while we run an errand or two. We do these types of quick errands maybe once or twice a week on average I'd say.

So, in return for my other centered approach to meeting her EN's and genuinely helping around the house on a day to day basis, she is willing to meet my SF need every other day. Usually, two out of the three times per week, it is what we call "no frills" SF, perhaps in the shower, or after the kids are all in bed. Basically, for the two times durng the week, it is her actively choosing to meet my SF EN, even if she's not going to "rock my world" per se, or if she's not going to O herself. For couples who have mismatched libidos, you have to go with what works. While it is difficult for a man to imagine SF as being fulfilling without an O, my understanding after having done a LOT of reading and research, is that this is not the case for women. My W has consistently and truthfully admitted to me that even though she may not want an O - perhaps because she is too tired or stressed or a number of other possible reasons, she does feel more connected to me emotionally from frequent SF, and she does get satisfaction in knowing that she is meeting my need for SF. For those who may wonder, yes I am flexible in that I'm not rigidly married to every other day. Sometimes we do in fact enjoy SF every day, sometimes not for a few days between our encounters. Life is what happens while we're busy planning, so we have to have a flexible mindset when it comes to these types of things IMHO.

To use HOLD's analogy, as we run the marathon we call life, if SF represents the drinks that we need as we run the race, then the type of drink that I'm going to get as the marathon goes on will vary. Sometimes it's just plain old water, which gets the job done and quenches my thirst for a while. Sometimes it's gatorade, with that saltly sweetness and extra punch that energizes me oh so much more than water. For me, the water represents my W loving me sacrificially and meeting my SF EN more often than she otherwise would choose to when left to her own druthers, and the gatorade represents when she's "all in" and is going to "rock my world" so to speak. I hope this makes sense. For us, this is our "meeting in the middle" from an SF EN perspective. I meet her primary EN's day to day (conversation, domestic support, financial support, affection) and she does the same for my SF primary EN - which is intimately tied into other primary EN's per the window analogy.

Well Hold, that's kinda what I'm saying, that when you get to the point where you eliminate the other issues, the the real issues get more clear. To me, it was important to finish counseling to work through my resentment about what happened as a child, because it was not okay with me that it was taking a chunk out of my adulthood, too.

I think that as you and your W are taking more initiative working through issues instead of ignoring them, you will get more and more momentum going together, and this will feel like something you two were meant to tackle.

RD,

I think you hit on a very important point that I wrote about but is worth reiterating. My translation of what you stated, is that too many people adopt the following attitude:

"Seek first to be understood, before understanding."

Which happens to be the exact opposite of the old adage:

"Seek first to understand, before being understood."

Can you tell I like things to be black and white?

IME, adopting the former leads to pain and disenchantment with the relationship. Put another way, are we to be self centered or other centered when it comes to loving our mate? If we care about number one, and our spouse on some level knows and senses this reality, then how can we expect our mate to open up to us intimately? If I know that my beautiful bride has my best interests at heart, then I can let my guard down and give all of myself to her, but when I sense that she's looking out for herself, I pull back. This is our natural tendency yes? We are merely protecting our own well being when we pull back because we know that if our mate has only their best interest at heart when interacting with us, then most likely we're going to get hurt in some form or fashion. There's a big difference between entering negotiations with an attitude that in essence says, "you must do this for me before I'll do anything for you," versus "I'm willing to do x for you, because I love and cherish you first and foremost, and in return I'll humbly ask that you do y for me." One is communicated in love, one is essentially a LB'ing selfish demand.

As a precursor to my posts, all of what I wrote makes the assumption that the two individuals in the M are otherwise individually relatively healthy. The M may be broken, due primarily to an inability to understand how to choose good behavior, which is something that can be fixed. We cannot change who we are, our base personalities, but we can change and modify our behaviors over time. Most M's can be repaired by behavioral modification, but some people simply refuse to change their behavior. That said, some people due to extenuating circumstances are unable to change their behavior. If this is the case, then the extenuating circumstances must first be resolved before any real progress can be made within the context of the intimate relationship.

I would also submit that I believe there is no fixing the relationship. There are two individuals that exist in intimate relationship with one another, and those two individuals can improve themselves via behavioral modification of some kind which may in turn improve the intimate relationship. Oftentimes, per the MB system, one spouse can embark on improving him or her self, and because any change introduced by either spouse by definition introduces change into the intimate relationship, the other spouse will see and feel the change and respond in some manner - either the other spouse will start to change as well - or they will resist the changes and attempt to stop their mate from changing. Basically, the intimate relationship is made up of the two individuals and their collective ability to improve themselves.

The trick is, we humans naturally resist change, and because we resist change, we are bound to experience emotional gridlock that, sooner or later, will hopefully, but not always, motivate us to embrace change. The question one would probably ask at this point is, what if the resisting spouse chooses not to embrace change at any point? The answer is that the intimate relationship usually comes to a point where the spouse who has truly changed, recognizes that they cannot remain in the relationship without violating their personal sense of integrity - their changed values - and therefore they must leave the relationship - not out of some sense of revenge or anger per se - but because they come to the realization that who they have become - their core values - can no longer remain intact within the intimate relationship in question.

I'd highly recommend reading Schnarch's book Passionate Marriage, which goes into great detail about the nature of relationships, change, differentiation, emotional fusion (which produces emotional/marital gridlock), sense of self, a reflected sense of self, holding onto yourself, personal integrity and violation of your own integrity, and many other concepts that help to explain the nature of intimate relationships and the process of relational changes. If anyone is interested I can attempt to find the time to post my interpretation and what I learned from this book. It was a very challenging read for me personally, perhaps one of the most influential "self help" type books I've ever read.