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Originally Posted by MrsWondering
Originally Posted by Want2Stay
OK, let's take this a litte bit further. I think we see proof that respect is neccessary to feel love here all the time. How many times have we seen where the WS "affairs down" and then creates a fantasy that the AP is something that there obviously are not to anyone but the WS? I think it's neccessary for them to build up the AP in order to get the mushy love feelings. It's a means to an end because if they didn't find some reason to respect the AP, it would diminish the high of the A. That's not to say there can't be lust without respect though. It is a matter of recognizing the difference between the two.

Want2Stay

I disagree and I'll tell you why. There is no respect for the AP, and the WS has no self-respect during the affair either...In fact, this lack of self-respect is one of the reasons that a WS "affairs down" - or heck has an affair at all...They need someone that appears to "worship" them due to this lack of self-respect...

Mrs. W,

Ah, but what you just said contradicts itself and may have very well been the circumstances in your sitch. The WS lacking self-respect is a different issue all together though. The need to find someone that "worships" them wouldn't be nearly as satisfying if they didn't find some reason to respect the AP. Who would get satisfaction being "worshiped" by a loser anyways? It would be empty "worship" if respect wasn't there in some form or fashion. Even if it is part of the fantasy.

Want2Stay



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Originally Posted by roybatty
...Of course, respect is earned...

I understand this and I want to agree, because too many men demand respect while being anything but respectable. I've been guilty of it myself.

Biblically speaking, however, it is wrong. If you're a Christian (not saying you are), there are no conditions for giving either love or respect.

Husbands are commanded to love their wives, not love them "if".

Wives are commanded to respect their husbands, not respect them "if".

That's not to say we become doormats and take no action in the case of blatant sin such as infidelity. But generally speaking, those commands are not conditional.


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Originally Posted by ottert
Originally Posted by roybatty
...Of course, respect is earned...

I understand this and I want to agree, because too many men demand respect while being anything but respectable. I've been guilty of it myself.

Biblically speaking, however, it is wrong. If you're a Christian (not saying you are), there are no conditions for giving either love or respect.

Husbands are commanded to love their wives, not love them "if".

Wives are commanded to respect their husbands, not respect them "if".

That's not to say we become doormats and take no action in the case of blatant sin such as infidelity. But generally speaking, those commands are not conditional.

I would say that in a perfect world, the respect would be earned during courtship, before the marriage. In my case, and I'm sure in many others... I love busted the heck out of my wife in our marriage before she started any infidelity. I'm not taking responsibility for her actions, but I can see how I was destroying the marriage. It's my responsibility now to be the man she once respected. In a way, I have to re-earn her respect, even as she has to re-earn my trust.


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Originally Posted by Want2Stay
Originally Posted by MrsWondering
Originally Posted by Want2Stay
OK, let's take this a litte bit further. I think we see proof that respect is neccessary to feel love here all the time. How many times have we seen where the WS "affairs down" and then creates a fantasy that the AP is something that there obviously are not to anyone but the WS? I think it's neccessary for them to build up the AP in order to get the mushy love feelings. It's a means to an end because if they didn't find some reason to respect the AP, it would diminish the high of the A. That's not to say there can't be lust without respect though. It is a matter of recognizing the difference between the two.

Want2Stay

I disagree and I'll tell you why. There is no respect for the AP, and the WS has no self-respect during the affair either...In fact, this lack of self-respect is one of the reasons that a WS "affairs down" - or heck has an affair at all...They need someone that appears to "worship" them due to this lack of self-respect...

Mrs. W,

Ah, but what you just said contradicts itself and may have very well been the circumstances in your sitch. The WS lacking self-respect is a different issue all together though. The need to find someone that "worships" them wouldn't be nearly as satisfying if they didn't find some reason to respect the AP. Who would get satisfaction being "worshiped" by a loser anyways? It would be empty "worship" if respect wasn't there in some form or fashion. Even if it is part of the fantasy.

Want2Stay

Seriously W2S...No respect for the AP at all - that is not thought about or relevant...Affairs are entirely SELFISH...No regard for ANYONE but self...The affair is all about how it makes the WS feel...Everything and everyone else be damned...

Mrs. W


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Mrs W,

I still disagree. Real earned respect, no - fantasy made up respect that disappears after the fog is gone, yes.

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Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Frankly, I think I'd have the respect first. I believe that my FWW would not have invited OM into our bedroom if she respected me. She would have taken her sleazy A elsewhere.
There is something about this paragraph that grabs at my attention. It’s not that defiling ones marriage bed is all that unusual for adulterers. Happens on occasion, I suppose. I suspect it did in my wife’s VLTA. Not my marriage bed – but OM’s marriage bed.

When put in the context of a lack of respect it gains a concrete meaning I didn’t see before.

There is lack of respect. There is neutrality regarding respect. There is disrespect. And there is active, intentional, meaningful insulting. Using the marriage bed is this latter.

I do not believe such an act is the result of timing, heat of passion, just not thinking, nor any other miserable excuse any FWS can and usually do come up with – if one uses their marriage bed for adulterous sex they did it to intentionally disrespect and insult their spouse, their marriage and the community of all marriages.

They knew exactly what hey were doing.

And they still do.


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I don't think I could feel loved by a woman who didn't respect me. I could know that they care about my well-being and perhaps feel some motherly responsibility for me. Or perhaps I'd realize that they need me because they need a husband, but would switch me out if they could do it again.

But no, if she doesn't respect me I can't feel romantic love coming from her. And thinking about that, it goes very far in explaining the problems in my marriage, particulary from a motivation standpoint.

I've read that at the core, an man wants to know that he has what it takes, and that a woman wants to know that they are beautiful, that they are treasured. If your spouse, your other half, doesn't believe things about you, how can you feel whole?


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I do not believe such an act is the result of timing, heat of passion, just not thinking, nor any other miserable excuse any FWS can and usually do come up with – if one uses their marriage bed for adulterous sex they did it to intentionally disrespect and insult their spouse, their marriage and the community of all marriages.

Possibly. I don't think of the WS's brain as generally functioning in proactive sense. IMHO, it is more reactive.

So I don't think of it as "they did it to intentionally..." I think of it as they did it, knew it would be disrespectful and insulting and didn't care.

Not that it really makes a difference either way.


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Originally Posted by rprynne
So I don't think of it as "they did it to intentionally..." I think of it as they did it, knew it would be disrespectful and insulting and didn't care.

Not that it really makes a difference either way.

I kind of see it as just another aspect of entitlement. "This is my bed, and I'll do whatever I want in it." Not necessarily meant as a slap in the face of the BS, just another example of overwhelming selfishness.

With regards to respect vs love... I don't think my wife could love me romantically without respecting me... so I work hard to earn her respect. She had lost all respect for me in our Bad Old Days, and that, I think, led to her losing her love for me. So I value her respect very much.

But I cherish her love for me. Respect is something that is given to anyone who has earned it... but romantic love is generally given to only one person at a time. And her love for me is what keeps me going, and her love is what motivates me to do whatever it is I need to do to do.


Last edited by CuthbertCalculus; 03/04/09 02:40 PM. Reason: correct mispelling

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Originally Posted by rprynne
But I'm not so sure this is true for the general population. Now, I think every woman in the general population will claim that they could not love a man they don't respect. But I'm not so sure that is truthful.

I think that it is generally true, but to your point, it will vary from woman to woman. Dr. Harley had stated that "Respect is certainly a factor in a woman's love for her husband."

Now, what warrants RESPECT will vary from woman to woman based on many individual factors, but I don't think women generally are interested in someone they don't respect and look down upon. I am sure there are always exceptions to every generalization, but I believe that is generally true of most women.

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Frankly, who's ever going to say they can love a person they don't respect.

Well, I just never said anything about it until I figured out that is what drove my feelings for men. It never came up.

But why would someone NEED to lie about that? crazy


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Originally Posted by dkd
but no, if she doesn't respect me I can't feel romantic love coming from her.

I think this is correct.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Well, I'll put in my 2 cents. I knew my ex for about 10 years before we married, and I respected him. Throughout our marriage I respected him. But the aftermath of D-day caused me to lose my respect, and then I lost all of my love for him. And that love is gone forever.


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Frankly, who's ever going to say they can love a person they don't respect.

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Well, I just never said anything about it until I figured out that is what drove my feelings for men. It never came up.

But why would someone NEED to lie about that? crazy

Not so much lie about it, just if it came up, I think a woman would say that she can't love a man unless she respects him. Whether she really knew that to be true or not, it just sounds better than the opposite.


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Originally Posted by rprynne
Not so much lie about it, just if it came up, I think a woman would say that she can't love a man unless she respects him. Whether she really knew that to be true or not, it just sounds better than the opposite.

dontknow dontknow And a woman might almost claim to be an alligator wrassler from the outback of Australia, but what does that have to do with the subject at hand?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Would it be fair to say that a WW would rationalize her way into finding respect for OM? Put in another way, she convinces herself that OM is respectable so that she can use him to get her ENs met? And with such success that she convince herself and OM that the respect is real.

I've heard it said several times that the BH can't understand why WW finds characteristic 'X' awful in BH, but ignores the same characteristic in OM.

To be honest, men often do the same rationalization of the characteristics of a woman so that she becomes they need them to be, whether that be an affair or just dating. I certainly have (the dating part, not affair part).



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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by rprynne
Not so much lie about it, just if it came up, I think a woman would say that she can't love a man unless she respects him. Whether she really knew that to be true or not, it just sounds better than the opposite.

dontknow dontknow And a woman might almost claim to be an alligator wrassler from the outback of Australia, but what does that have to do with the subject at hand?

well, I said I would choose love since that also means I get respect since so many woman claim that they don't love without respect.

Then I said I'm not so sure I buy that woman don't love people they don't respect.

You said love=respect.

I followed that with a little fluff on some things.

Then said, but I guess no woman would admit to that.

You asked why would they lie.

I answered.

I guess what it means is that I don't think a man has to choose between a woman loving him and respecting him. It will be both or neither, if the love=respect is true. If false, I think she will find a way to respect the man she loves, regardless of whether she claims to "have" to respect a man before she loves him.


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Originally Posted by Aphelion
I do not believe such an act is the result of timing, heat of passion, just not thinking, nor any other miserable excuse any FWS can and usually do come up with – if one uses their marriage bed for adulterous sex they did it to intentionally disrespect and insult their spouse, their marriage and the community of all marriages.
The moment a person commits adultery, they intentionally disrespect and insult their spouse. Doing it in the marital bed is intentional disrespect, insulting and cruelty.

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Originally Posted by Aphelion
I do not believe such an act is the result of timing, heat of passion, just not thinking, nor any other miserable excuse any FWS can and usually do come up with – if one uses their marriage bed for adulterous sex they did it to intentionally disrespect and insult their spouse, their marriage and the community of all marriages.

I disagree. I don't think they give it a second thought - it's mere logistics. Whereas for the BS it's a grievious assault.


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Originally Posted by bigkahuna
Originally Posted by Aphelion
I do not believe such an act is the result of timing, heat of passion, just not thinking, nor any other miserable excuse any FWS can and usually do come up with – if one uses their marriage bed for adulterous sex they did it to intentionally disrespect and insult their spouse, their marriage and the community of all marriages.

I disagree. I don't think they give it a second thought - it's mere logistics. Whereas for the BS it's a grievious assault.


I completely agree BK. It still BOOGLES my mind today some of the things my WH did during the A that I think was totally assaulting, BUT my WH will tell you that they weren't thinking about anyone or anything other than being together...... puke

WS's are so embitted into themselves and their entitlement, that they don't think what their actions mean to others around them......

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Originally Posted by ottert
Biblically speaking, however, it is wrong. If you're a Christian (not saying you are), there are no conditions for giving either love or respect.

Husbands are commanded to love their wives, not love them "if".

Wives are commanded to respect their husbands, not respect them "if".

That is absolutely correct.

For a woman, love comes naturally whereas respect does not - hence it is addressed in scripture and is an unconditional command.

Likewise for a man with respect and love.


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