I've been married for 13 years and have four kids. Nine months ago my wife told me she wanted to separate. I was shocked, though in hindsight I should have seen it coming. Our marriage had been in a steady decline for five years or so, and whenever we had a heated argument my wife would say things like "I'm done", "I want to separate", or "I want a divorce." Since she never brought up separation in a normal conversation, I wrote her comments of to a horrible temper.

After she said she wanted to separate, I did a lot of soul searching and wrote her a long, heartfelt letter telling her that I still loved her and wanted to try to reconcile. She told me it was beautiful and that she didn't realize I had such feelings inside. Still, she said she needed space and that she wanted me to move out.

I was preparing to get an apartment, so we sat down with our two oldest kids to tell them we planned to separate. Both of them were devastated to hear the news, though they had witnessed lots of horrible arguments over the years and knew that mom and dad had a hard time getting along.

I was just a day or two away from signing a lease on the apartment when my wife told me she wanted me to wait for another week. Nine months later, we're still under the same roof but sleeping in different rooms. During that time our relationship has improved. I went to counseling (individual) for 8 months and focused on changing some things that my wife had long complained about. I confronted my wife about the things I didn't like about her behavior, and she has changed some of them (e.g., she no longer says during an argument that she wants to separate/divorce, and she is more patient with me when I do things that push her buttons). Our family time is more frequent and more enjoyable.

Things have improved, but I yearn for intimacy again with my wife. By this I mean not just sexual intimacy, but warmth and one-on-one companionship. I had hopes that it might be on the horizon, but my wife has recently dashed those hopes.

She tells me that she's not ready yet to sleep in the same room, and she doesn't know if she'll ever get there. She also asked me to back off on my frequency of contact with her (emails and phone calls during the work day), saying that we had never been ones to stay in touch during the day. She also asked me to back off asking her to go out on dates. She has told me that she's "an independent person" and that dating and romance have long been absent from our marriage. Trying to put them into the marriage again doesn't seem natural to her. She asks why we can't just act "normal", with the objective of getting to the point that we more enjoy spending time together.

I find it very ironic that after she complained long and hard about a lack of attention and a lack of intimacy, she is now telling me to back off of my efforts to be attentive and intimate. I've grown very cynical over the past week, feeling like I'm being kept around because I'm a good father to the kids, a good co-provider (we both work), and a good household partner (I do a lot of household chores and spend more time with the kids than she does).

I'm also bothered by my wife's lingering shortcomings, the biggest of which is that she seems unable to admit that she has any. It's clear that she blames me for the decline of our marriage; the only thing she admits she should have done differently is to raise the red flag earlier in the marriage. In all of our marriage I cannot recall an instance where she has apologized or admitted being in the wrong. I find it very difficult to address issues with her... like finances and personal time. No matter how I approach a source of marital conflict, I seem to piss her off.

I feel like at best we're staying together for the kids and at worst I'm being used by an overbearing person as an ATM and 7/24 childcare. On the other hand, I am very concerned about the impact a separation or divorce would have on the kids. My wife and I have been getting along peacefully for several months, but I know that I will eventually become bitter if we are just housemates instead of husband and wife. I also worry that we'll stay in a peaceful co-existence for a decade or so, only to separate/divorce when the nest is empty.

I'm dazed and confused. Has anyone been down this path before?

Have you done much reading here.

What do you know about Love Busters?

What do you know about Emotional Needs?

What do you know about the Love Bank?

Have you read HNHN?

Have you read 'Fall In Love, Stay In Love'?

Your situation sounds very similar to mine, so I want to tell you a few things that I learned, unfortunately from mistakes.

Do not move out if you do not want to. If she wants to leave then she needs to move out. I made this mistake. A way to look at is that if she really wants to see what life is like without you, then she needs to test that by leaving everything that you bring to the marriage.

Learn the LBs and ENs as described on this website and try and take the questionaire's together if possible. It will probably go along way to figuring each other out and understanding how to love each other.

Does your wife have a lot of independent time? Do you have any concerns that she might be having an affair? She'll never look to you to have ENs met if she is getting them met somewhere outside the marriage.

In regards to her not owning up to her shortcomings, be very capable about that. If you bring those to her in a disrespectful way, she will not respond well. The common advice is to start off with "I feel" instead of "You did", and don't cheat with an "I feel you did". She may understand better how you are hurting and what she can do to help that as oppossed to feeling judged.

Also, don't dispair when she isn't owning up. In my sitch, my W came to understand where her shortcomings were as they were exposed to her through external events, not in me trying to explain them to her. It sounds like your wife may be the same. Just tell her how you feel and set your boundaries accordingly. let her choice to meet your ENs instead of trying to push her into it.

I second the advice not to move out. I also want to encourage you to not allow her to take the kids.

Stay in the home, and say the kids life should not be disrupted very much. Tell her she is free to go, and that you are willing to let the kids visit every other weekend while she decides what she wants to do.

Make it clear that if she wants to leave, she's free to go, but can't just take anything she wants or force you to leave.

This sounds very much to me like a person who is having a very secret affair. Did she say "I love you, but I am not in love with you?" Does she need some "space?" Has she asked you to move out?

Have you ruled out an affair?

To my amazement, we have several cases of wayward wives on this forum who ask for "space," move in the spare bedroom and proclaim they are "seperated." They move into the spare bedroom and commence to carrying on like an alley cat in heat with all the benefits of marriage. Basically what they try to achieve is the best of both worlds. All the benefits of a married and a single person, but with none of the responsibility. At the expense of their spouse and children, of course. At GREAT EXPENSE.

What is astonishing to me is that many MEN tolerate this abuse. If my H moved into the spare bedroom and proclaimed he was free to date because he slept in the guestroom, he would have to be rescued by the Texas Rangers.

Unfortunately, this cruel and manipulative behavior leaves enormous damage on the emotional and physical health of her spouse. It is very harmful to the children becasue their stable family is wrecked and they are actually taught that wrong is right by a wayward. We have one man whose moved into the spare bedroom and is FLAGRANTLY committing adultery in front of her own kids, claiming an adultery entitlement because she moved into the spare room. It is insane and is abusive.

And if this is the case in your situation, you have a huge problem on your hands and will have to take some pretty firm action to protect yourself and your kids.

Have you ruled out an affair?

p.s. since you are not divorced or "separated" you might want to find a more appropriate forum. Perhaps GQ11. If you want to move your thread, click on the notify button at the bottom of the post and ask the mods to move it there.

sorry you are here.

How much time does wife spend alone, when, how often?

Does wife have activities that do not include you, what when, with who, how often?

One riot, one Ranger, Mel?

Thanks for the responses. I did ask the moderator to move this thread to GQ11 as MelodyLane suggested.

On the topic of a possible affair, I was very concerned about that prospect in fall of 2008. She is away from the house enough that she could carry on an affair. I've read some of the infidelity discussions and tips for snooping. I did some snooping, and found no smoking gun. Twice I told my wife, in a non-confrontational way, that I thought there was someone else. The first time she said she had been in emotionally fulfilling relationships with both men and women, in the sense of being closer to them emotionally than she was to me (which would not be difficult, honestly). The second time she told me there was no one else, and that I would be better off focusing my energy on changing things for the better. Honestly, the snooping and hand-wringing over a prospective affair was making me very tense. I've settled on this... She is getting some of her needs met elsewhere, yes, but through an affair with one person, I don't believe so. If I learn there is an affair, then it's Plan A / Plan B. Until then, I'm not going down the path of GPS trackers, voice activated recorders, etc. They won't improve a relationship that may still have life in it.

A few other things to make the situation clear... Separation was discussed. Being cut off from the kids was never in the cards for either of us. The home environment had been very bad (loud arguments, tension) for several years, and we both worried about the effect this was having on the kids and each of us. My wife wanted to separate, then backed off. Since then, we have both worked to make a better environment in the house.

In a nutshell, my struggle is... Things have improved. I felt there was positive momentum, then my wife asked me two weeks ago to back off my frequency of "hello" emails and requests for dates. This burst my balloon and left me feeling like we SHOULD just separate. My wife says she doesn't know if she can get back to a romantic relationship with me, and I don't want to hold on forever without that. Previously I had a mental deadline of Dec '08 to fix it or move on. Things got better, so I stayed.

Going forward, should there be a deadline / line in the sand? Or is it better to focus on whether things are still moving in the right direction?

dkd, thanks. Very helpful advice about not moving out to let her cherry pick the needs that are being met. If it does comes to separation, I'll stay and she can go. Hopefully it won't come to that

You won't improve the relationship if you don't know what the problem is.

I just stopped reading right here because there was no use in going forward. We are wasting our time trying to help you if you won't find out the source of the problem. A problem can't be solved if you don't know what it is. If the engine is knocking, it won't help you to wash the car and never lift the hood. Washing the car won't cure the engine problem.

If there is an affair here, which I very much believe there is, then everything you are doing here will be for naught. You are doing little more than waxing the car when the engine is getting ready to blow. I won't waste my time here if you can't be bothered to do some investigating to find the source of the problem. If you can't be bothered to help yourself, then neither can I.

Sorry to be harsh, but you are asking us to help you fix the car but refuse to open the hood. How can we possibly help you? Thanks but no thanks.

If you decide you want to stop this fast train that is headed right to divorce using your tactics, here is what you should do after you gather the facts:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

dey might need more than one, Seabird.

I don't think you are going to like what I say but .....

I am a FWW and even I smell an affair here. Its the emotional withdrawal from the M and wanting you to stop trying to fill one of the needs being met by her lover. The red flags just are waving at you madly.

It may be an emotional affair but I sort of doubt it because of the time scale. That's the sad reality of affairs.

Mel is right on the money here .... even IF... that's a big if too... there is no affair .. something serious is going on and if you don't find out what it is how on Gods green earth do you think you can do anything about it if you don't know what it is ???????

right now you are heading straight to divorce-ville ... there are times when I reluctantly agree that a D is the best option but will you just go out with a whimper without knowing what is going on ????

If I was a betting woman I'd offer you odds on that there is a 'someone' in the wings for her right now.

why not have a PI do the work for you then at least all these propositions can be laid to rest once and for all. I for one would not mind at all being wrong about an affair. I'd love for you to be able to say no its ruled out by a PI.

Personally, IMHO, I would say why bother as it appers your head is firmly entrenched in "said" sand.


In that case, you will continue to walk head on into glass walls because you refuse to uncover the real reason for the emotional seperation that has occured in your M. Your desscription of things, reeks with the smell of an ongoing affair with an OM who is providing the EN's that you are not. It will not change unless and until you decide to do something about it.

If that's your line in the sand, to do nothing regarding uncovering the truth, then even God can't help you, let alone this forum.

Good Luck,
All Blessings,
Jerry

Thanks all of you for the tough love. Painful but I needed it to snap out of victim mode.

I started conversation with W this morning about needing to have a marriage where both of our ENs are being met. I said I want to place a timeframe on getting to that point. That conversation is to be continued...

Meanwhile, as part of EN conversation Part I, W says I can come back to the bedroom with her, as long as she can still get her sleep. I'm perplexed by this, will have the EN conversation and understand more about her suggestion (what it means to her... that she wants to be in the same bed or that I forced myself on her). Once before she mentioned moving back into the same bed for sake of appearances to the kids. At that time I told her I'd love to be back in the same bed, but wanted it to be for our sake rather than for the kids.

Thoughts??

Did you give any thought to saving your marriage by finding out the truth? Or did you just want to talk about the weather?

Can I ask why you moved out of your own bed?

This is going to sound harsh, but you need some harsh doses of reality right now.

Your wife has you dancing to her tune and doing all she wants you to do. You have given her the control and she's happy to keep playing the fiddle while you dance in oblivion thinking all is well.

You're re-arranging the furniture on the Titanic while the ship sinks.

It's sinking because there is a gaping wound on the side of it that you are refusing to acknowledge or find.

You can do some snooping without resorting to extremes, but the odds are really, really, really high (and I've been on this forum for years, seeing men like you come here and giving their wives the benefit of the doubt) that your wife is having an affair.

I wold bet my next month's paycheck on it.

I've seen her behavior over and over and it never fails that the betrayed husband (BH) is somehow surprised at what is happening.

So buddy, time to take the head out of the sand.

What should you do?

First of all, you should be in Plan A since your wife is acting like a WW. She may not be having an affair :RollieEyes: but you should handle her as if she is.

Second, never, ever, ever assume that she will let you see the kids if you divorce. I and many other men have made the same assumptions and given custody to our exes, thinking, again, that she wouldn't do such a thing. Trust me when I tell you that she will minimize your interaction with them with all kinds of whacked out justifications. There's a reason why men lose custody in court battles and it's often because we simply hand it to our wives, giving them the "benefit of the doubt". Moving out of your home can be treated as "abandonment" in family court, regardless of how much you deny that it is. You will be handled as a man who abandoned his children and gave her custody.

These are the voices of experience talking to you.

Finally, you should be snooping. Look at your phone records, starting with the cell phone.

Get into her emails, web browser history, and install a keylogger on your computer to get her passwords.

If you have the funds, hire a PI.

I hate to tell you, my friend, but the odds are super high that she's having an affair, which explains her crazy behavior.

If it does come to divorce, then be prepared to play hardball because the courts crucify men who aren't prepared in terms of custody. It rewards those who are willing to fight. Plenty of examples on these forums of both.

I would love nothing more than to be wrong about you and your wife. I would love to learn that she is not having an affair. But I and the other advising you here have seen this behavior before and it doesn't bode well for you.

Your wife is ripe for an affair. Pull your head out of the sand.

We're rooting for you.

Agree with melody. If you suspect she is getting ENs met elsewhere, then you have a right to know. You are her husband. And she doesn't get to decide whether or not you sleep in the bed. She gets to decide on whether the dog sleeps in the bed, but if she doesn't want to sleep with you, she got go elsewhere.

I know exactly how it feels be afraid of pushing your W over the edge so to speak. But if you don't, neither one of you will respect you for it.