I am in a very similar situation. My BS suggested that I post my precautions for you in case they are helpful to you. These are precautions against compulsive behavior that led to infidelity. I have another list of precautions to protect my emotional weaknesses, but the below is just the list for compulsive behavior that may be part of what has ruined our lives. It was in outline form and doesn't copy to pure text, so it is a little hard to read this, but for whatever it is worth:

1. Suborning self-interest to the interests of the marital relationship. Establishing the needs of the spouse and the marriage as the single most important thing in my life. Though this realization has already occurred as a result of this crisis, this will be continually reinforced and patterned by long-term, dedicated study and implementation of the principles and basic concepts in the Marriage Builders course and lesson work, which will establish
a. Meeting the emotional needs of spouse as my prime consideration.
b. Discussing with my spouse if I feel my emotional needs are not being met.
2. Recognize the clues and warning signs of risk-taking behavior, including:
a. Use of medications or any psychoactive substances, including alcohol, without my spouse’s knowledge, to achieve a feeling of just “feeling good” rather than for legitimate and prescribed medical indications or in her presence in a social setting.
b. Having the idea occur that something I want does not first have to be enthusiastically agreed to by my spouse. Having any idea occur that cannot be discussed with or brought to the knowledge of my spouse. Finding myself withholding any emotion, activity, information or knowledge of any kind from my spouse. Basically, finding myself violating the principle of “radical honesty”.
c. Finding myself scheduling some activity that requires my being away from my spouse for a major part of a day, when the same activity could be scheduled to occur at a time when we could be together.
d. Being alerted by spouse of any forgetful, obsessive, or agitated behavior of mine.
3. In conversations with my wife, follow the principles of radical honesty, meeting her emotional needs, and relying on her (and my) “[censored] meter” to question whether my words are being formulated to deceive or achieve any other effect other than convey honest information or feelings to try to achieve any effect that is for my advantage rather than for our mutual benefit.
4. Discuss with my wife any feeling of anger or resentment or concern with regards to her or my sexual fulfillment.
5. Establish specific boundaries of behavior in our marriage and decide the specific consequences that would occur in the case of a violation of those boundaries, including:
a. Conversational boundaries with members of the opposite sex
b. What kinds of touching violate the boundaries of appropriateness, when interacting with members of the opposite sex
c. Boundaries regarding what kind of activities can be planned that involve private time with members of the opposite sex
d. Immediately inform spouse of any warning signs that occur with regard to the above.
6. Seek spiritual guidance and redemption by attending church with my spouse and though meditation and prayer. (BTW, I am not a religious man, but I have been finding that I want and need spiritual guidance and have certainly cried out for God to help us in the last several months. As they say in the military, there are no atheists in a fox hole, or something like that LOL)

If you want to see my EN protection plan and my NC plan, let me know. It is crucial to go over it with my BS at least once per week.

tst: thanks so much for sharing this with me; afterr reading your ep's I believe most if not all do apply to me. I will print out your response and read and re-read them over and over again. You were all correct-there really is much to learn from all who are willing and kind enough to share. Thanks again.

GreenMile: Wow! Thanks so much. All of this information is so very helpful. And since you are offering,please share with me your other plans as well.Look forward to hearing more from you.

rfw,

When your wife chooses to have a conversation with another woman, here's a great suggestion:

"Sunflower honey, why don't I take care of our daughter while you enjoy some conversation with Mrs. Smith? I will meet you at the car in about 10 minutes! I'm sure DD needs a break, she's a bit noisy! It was nice to see you again, Mrs. Smith!"

AND TAKE YOUR DAUGHTER TO ENJOY DADDY TIME WITH YOU

DON'T TALK WITH THE LADY, DON'T HELP HER OUT, DON'T CONVERSE.

In almost any situation, you can find a polite way to excuse yourself and allow your wife to talk a moment, and then meet you at the car, back at the restaurant table, at the seat in the movie theatre, and so on. You and Sunflower need to figure this out together, and agree on how she would like this handled.

Her angry outburst is not acceptable, and she is working on those things. In the meantime, your EPs need to be reviewed and modified to account for the things that may come along from time to time that trigger Sunflower. Something might pop up this week or next week, and the EPs change - when that happens, YOU write the new EP, and then talk to your wife about it. Don't wait for her to ask you to do it, and this action will add to your LB balance. In hindsight, you might have just responded, "Sunflower, I see that this is a trigger for you - and I will never do things like this again in the future. I apologize for not handling this well. I was put on the spot and just didn't know what to say. Work with me and help me with what to do in the future when things like this happen."

Maybe what you could say is, "I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT KIND OF CAMERA. You probably need to have your husband/boyfriend look at it. He is probably great at that sort of thing."

DUH.

Turn it around, and build up another man - and protect your marriage.

Think SUNFLOWER FIRST.

SB

rfw,

Okay, here are my ideas for conversation!

1. There are a couple of books out there that are terrific for conversational openers. One is called "Or". That's the title, but I haven't been able to find it for awhile. It is a book of lists, that are categorized. For example, sports, foods, places, celebrities, etc. Then, each category has lists of "or":

Sports:
Dallas Cowboys OR Washington Redskins
Yankees OR Dodgers

Celebrities:
Brad Pitt OR Robert Redford
Angelina Jolie OR Jennifer Aniston

Foods:
M & M's - Plain OR Peanut
Catsup OR Mustard
Peanut butter OR Jelly

The lists are endless, and once you start reading the lists, people begin choosing! It gets funny, because people have these really strong preferences, and start talking about why one is better than the other, when really there is NO real reason why one would be (I mean really - peanut butter or jelly?). The book is pretty thick, and an excellent way to learn about one another. If you can't find the book, sit down and just start making lists of two things, people, places, etc. that you can think of, and don't stop. Anything goes, as long as they are related and pretty much considered rivals or opposites. Start with a list of about 100. When I use this in my work, we get to a point and then the subjects are asked to generate their own "OR". Makes for excellent discourse.

Another book is "The Book of Questions". It is full of terrific moral dilemma questions that are hypothetical and place the person in the position of really thinking about what they would do and why or why not. A very good way to talk about morals and ethics, feelings, dreams for the future, etc.

While you might not think much of the author, the questions in the back of the book are absolutely excellent - Dr. Phil McGraw's "Relationship Rescue". He asks couples to sit down and talk about their relationship and themselves in a way that is very productive. I would recommend you at least read this book, and then consider either talking to Sunflower about the concepts in the book, or telling her about your answers to the questions in the back, if not going through the process he suggests in the back. Well worth the price.

2. When she suggests you come up with topics for conversation, that means she wants you to talk about things that are important. Not your job, not the bills, not sports. Here are suggestions:

where you see the marriage 5 years from now

what you have learned so far in this process - about yourself, about her, about life in general

3 things you plan never to do again in the future, and what you have done inside yourself to never do them again (this may be marriage related, or personal changes)

the top ten things you love about her

the top five things you think are the best things you and she have ever done together, and your memories of those

asking her about her dreams as a child, and how she feels she might go about fulfilling some of them now, and how you might support her in that process

random ideas: high school reunion talk, if you want to go, why/why not; what is your favorite vacation memory from your time before we married; religious paths and where you've been and where she's been, where do you both see yourselves going from here; what are your top five favorite movies/books and why; do you ever think about extraterrestrial life, and if the government is really hiding anything?.......these might be for times when "relationship" talk is just not needed or wanted!


Do you see what conversation might look like for her? She wants to hear what you are working on inside your head - in order to understand what you are thinking, you must talk about it and express it to her. To SEE your work, she has to HEAR it, too.


SB

Schoolbus: thank you-I should have known better and been more sensitive and caring to to her feelings and my surroundings. I have been so topsy turvey in my life-so in the dark-so distant yet so dependent on SF- my head is spinning. Everyday is a new experience for me;I am finally learning about all the things I DID NOT DO-the things I took for granted snd how unkind I was along the way. SF is correct-I lived my life so WRONGLY---my habits are so out of whack as to where I should be as a normal human being -never mind being the loving, caring , sharing husband. I find I am now getting angry at myself now-not only for what I did wrong-but for all the things I should be doing right; I disgust me.
I am having a real time of it just trying to keep up with SF on all the things we have to together-as well as the independent things-like trying to stay on top of this and answering the kind individuals who take so much of their time to answer me. I guess the bottom line is that I am finally learning what it means to be a carng,loving,sharing,committed,involved husband and father(while SF doesn't think I am not even close to being there) there are things I see now that I never saw before. Its tough work and yet it feels good to be doing the right thing for the right reasons. BUT I have a very long way to go- as there is sooo much I have to learn and SF's patience is frail,leary and suspicous. Lately, there seems to be new issues developing- moment by moment; new things to be written down-things not to be forgotton. In many respects the the "talkin time is over and the doing time is now". Please Know that I am printing many of the responses I get and taping them int my journal to read and review (I do that with your responses).I WILL NOT GIVE UP! I am determined to be the man SF always wanted--- creating a new life together-built on love and respect,and care and patience and understanding. Thanks again.

rfw,

Sounds like things are running a bit in the rough.

What's up with the avoidance tactics your using? You remind me of several people I know IRL that use sleep to avoid discomfort and avoid reeeeal communcation. These people I mention have been diagnosed with depression. I would agree they are depressed, but they do nothing to prevent the deepening problems that are perpetuated by sleeping time away and avoiding the people they claim to need and love. It's a damaging cycle YOU must choose to change and follow through with the changes on a daily basis!

Talk to me rfw....... Are you spending time researching what SchoolBus suggested to help meet your wife's #1 need of communication? Have you asked DW for her list of "I'd love it if's" and "I love it when's" so you can do them EVERYDAY?? Are you doing 15 hrs together meeting these EN's with your DW every week???

You are not going to get a mulligan on this!

tst: You are correct-I could do better-much better. Thanks for the "kick". rfw

tst: You said -"talk to me'- I need advise on the subject of exercising. I use to exercise everday, very early in the morning-for about 45 minutes to an hour. At one point, ther gym and/or running in the park was the place I met OW. Because of my abusive behavior in using exercise for demonic reasons one of my EPs' has focured around exercising;currently, I do not exercise at all-not even at home because I used to go to our basement and use it like a "cave" and hide out there "doing my own thing". We tried walking together, but it rarely happened and when it did it usually lead to an argument about "exercising". In our discussions, I have enthusiastically agreed to no gyms, no outdoor running or walking on my own, etc.. With no exercise at all, my heath is deteriorating and I believe this lack of physical activity is contributing to my overall sleepiness problem. The idea of 20 minutes a day or even 20 minutes every other day-together or individually- with specific time limitations and within eyesight...like... jumping on the trampoline in the yard has not resulted in an enthusiatic agreement.
So, perhaps with feedback and advise on this from you and others on this issue, I hope to gain insight and better understanding in dealing with this issues and others with greater sensitivity , compassion and effectiveness. Thanks.

Let's talk about your sleep issue before we discuss exercising.

This is a high priority issue.

The reason this is high priority is because it is causing your wife a great amount of pain.

You have a confirmed diagnosis of sleep apnea, and you have a C-PAP that will help you get a good night's rest. Yet you refuse to use it.

Your actions here (or lack of actions) send a message to Sunflower.

What message do you think she is hearing from you?

I would rather fall asleep during our time together than connect with you.

I don't want to lose my escape weapon of avoidance.

You don't matter enough to me to take actions that will enable me to be available to you.

I am not willing to protect you from hurt that I can prevent.

I'm not willing to do whatever it takes.




This is such a simple action!

Why are you avoiding it?

This is like a diabetic refusing their insulin and then complaining to their spouse because they feel sick.

You need to win your wife back, and this is all you come up with....I'm too tired?!




RFW, this is not even an issue of getting up and going into another room for a 20 minute nap. This is an issue of staying engaged and doing whatever it takes to remain engaged. It takes effort. It takes work. It takes building new habits, and most of all it takes desire.

You've said you're willing to do whatever it takes, but falling asleep during time with your wife and not wearing your C-PAP at night demonstrate the opposite. Both of these choices are making HUGE withdrawals from her love bank and causing her to lose love for you. And you ain't got much left in there.


What reason do you have for not making these two changes NOW?

If you start exercising now and do not deal with your sleep apnea, you will just cause more resentment in your wife because you will be demonstrating that you do have the energy to exercise but will still be too tired to connect with her.

What does that tell her about your PRIORITIES?

Protection and care
protection and care
protection and care

This needs to be your mantra.

I'll talk more about the exercise topic after we get past this major love buster you're throwing at her every day and every night.

I wanted to copy over some quote from your wife's thread that I thought were really great. I'm not sure if you are reading your wife's thread, but if you're not, ask you wife to print KaylaAndy's entire post for you.








Also, here's a Bible verse for you to think about:


1 Timothy 4:7-8
Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be Godly. For physical training is of some value, but Godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

RFW,

Are you feeling beat up on? If so, please know it's not my intent. Tell me some of your thoughts on these last few posts. Keep talking to me.

tst: thanks for taking the time to respond and sharing with me your thoughts and suggestions. I guess I am feeling a bit frustrated. I walk on egg shells -choosing my words very carefully but they come out wrong -causing major love busters-constantly-not just sometimes. I just seem unable to connect with my spouse. I cannot find a haapy medium.My actions are always selfish, insincere and misguided . I continue to struggle to meet her needs........ she complains of me doing a poor job of it...no improvement...sometimes seen worst than I was before.I have so much to change that I can't keep up with it. As I commence to focus on one thing, I am reminded of the dozen other things I promised to do but have not done-or forgot to do. I get on the computer to do this-but by doing this I messing up somewhere else. I AM falling asleep- not to escape-I am falling asleep because I am tired. I don't sleep well or enough and when I do have time to sleep, I can't because I am consumed with thoughts of what I should be doing or thoughts of what I have done or thoughts of the terrible pain I have caused...or trying to remember everthing I have forgotton. I am so ready to be the entirely changed man my wife is looking for...I want the bickering to stop..I am putting the time into it....I am reviewing ...I am writing..I am listening...I have the mantra. I believe in G-d and I talk yo G-d and I pray to G-d. In fact, I am praying right now---for she and me and "we". I am Not the man I was and NEVER EVER want to be that man EVERR again--ever!

You will be less tired when you start using your C-PAP.

Your words mean nothing. Your actions mean everything. If you want to fix the sleep problem, then FIX IT. YOU have control over whether you use the prescribed treatment for your sleep disorder.

This is a very concrete action you CAN take to demonstrate to Sunflower that you want to fix your sleep issue.

Yet you choose not to do this for her.

Why?

Hello SMB: Thanks for the response. Since coming to this Board and reading everyones suggestions,I have begun to use an oral appliance that was specially made by a dentist that has replaced my bi/pap machine i formally used(periodically). I am determined to beat this problem as opposed to just talking about it and doing nothing.----tst's previous recommendations to me are right on target.You are also correct I have the tools to fix it-it's time to fix the problem once and for all.I sincerely hope not to talk about this issue again-but more importantly I hope SF doesn't have to bring up this issue again. Thanks so much.

tst: i took your advise and read my wife's threads. The threads were both painful and enlightening. The issue of lying...answering questions truthfullly...being honest...there is nothing I want more. Help me here...I wore the sleep appliance last night and it went down as another lie. I want SF's love not her scorn,any further distrust, anger.......I want her to talk to me......PROTECTION AND CARE.....24-7! I am doing my best to follow the things that are being suggested. Some advise, please!

I remember very clearly being at the place where you are now. Here are a couple of things to try to keep in mind.

- When your wife comes at you with anger stop for a moment and remember where the anger comes from. You have hurt her deeply and repeatedly so you have to expect that there will be a lot of anger and that occasionally it will be directed at you.

- I have found that it is important to stay calm and non-defensive while being empathetic to the content of what she is saying (especially when she is angry.) Make sure that you really listen to what she is saying and don't be reactive. When you respond, respond with love and caring.

- Be patient with yourself, what you are attempting to do is incredibly difficult and it won't happen overnight. On the other hand, don't let up. Identify one thing to work on in yourself and focus on that until you think that you've achieved it. Once you've done that identify something else and repeat the process. I am still discovering new things that I need to work on all the time and I expect that this will probably never end. :-)

Hope this helps.

Thanks Mr. JK. I appreciate the words of support and knowing that there are others who have experienced what I am going through. I like that--a step at a time. Where are you now,Mr. JK?

I am still working on myself and my relationship with JK every day. There is no conclusion to this as far as I'm concerned, this is an effort that I will be engaged in for the rest of my life. As a matter of fact just today I had a recurrence of a behavior that is hurtful to JK. What I did was this:

1) I apologized sincerely (it helps if your spouse is in a place where this can be accepted but it is mandatory regardless.)

2) I owned it. I took proactive steps to fix what I had done. The result is that we both feel better about it. She feels better because she sees that I'm doing the work necessary for me to grow and I feel better for the experience of having grown. It works out well for both of us!