Zen: Caught up on your thread this morning. Man, rough times my friend! The rollercoaster went from the typical up and down to that crazy one that cork-screws you upside down! Ick.

I can only imagine what it must be like to have a wife that is fine one moment, then bat-poop crazy the next. Must drive you nuts! From what you have posted here I believe cat had some great advice: complete transparency, limit internet, track the phone, gps the car, keylog the computer, following Harley principles...everything she can do to SHOW you that she is making an effort.

Lay it all out on the line for her. Heck, even sit down and write up a contract for her -- this is what I will do for the marriage (kiddos, house, family, me, you) and this is what you (she) MUST do for the marriage (Harley, limit abuse, transparency, etc.). Set your boundaries and set the bar high.

And if she fails to reach that bar let her know you will be asking her to leave the house, for you families sake.

Don't make ultimatums, don't threaten divorce proceedings, just let her know if she can't live within your boundaries you don't want her living in the same house as you.

I strongly encourage you to reasearch Plan B more before heading to Plan D.

Do you think you wife is "playing" you? Just throwing you enough of a bone to get you to let your defenses down? Could she still be in contact with the OM? Or might there be yet another man who has entered the picture? Tell us what snooping you are doing?

Be strong, and set those boundaries. Set the bar high! Challenge her to help herself and really WORK on things. We are there for you Zen!

Thanks DNU1 and Cat for the advice.

As far as playing me? No I don't think so. I just don't think she'd want to come right back to the table and be so remorseful if she was playing. She insists that she has not contacted The Dude for the entire time. I am continuing to monitor her, but I am not interested in being a superspy. Thankfully, Dr. Harley's advice was to that effect too: Transparency is important, but look for the signs in her attitude and behavior. Really the date night was going great until she started talking about relationship stuff while drunk. I was the one who finally blew up with, "I'm done!" This sent her off the deep end.

It is her arrogant attitude that really hits the nerve for me. I keep telling her this. When she is being gentle and friendly and contrite, I can imagine this working. When she is arrogant and cocky, I want to be far far away from her. She said this attitude is so she doesn't have to feel like sh*t all the time. I understand that, but I told her I would like her to think how it effects me and US.

We had a friendly family-oriented evening last night. She was constantly asking me how I'm doing, looking at me with puppy dog eyes. Same thing that got her back in the door last time. When we got home from dinner and put the kids to bed, we sat down and had the talk. I had written out a list of boundaries. I told her that these were bottom line boundaries for me. She said she understood. I told her that I think her arrogance is insecurity in disguise. She insisted that she does not think she knows better that Dr. Harley, that it wasn’t her intention. She said she has trouble being sensitive to others feelings sometimes. I said, yes, and it's something that hurts me and others around her.

She's super-ashamed about the hitting. Funny thing is, intellectually I know how terrible that was, but it doesn't bother me nearly as much as the arrogance. I told her this.

She brought out her notes from her call to Dr. Harley. We talked about them. He mostly just gave her some steps to start healing the pain of the affair for me. She agreed to go through the steps. It was a very good talk, painful but cathartic. Her biggest fears are that I won't get over it and that we won't reestablish romantic love.

I think she's starting to commit to the big picture again. This morning talking about helping with the kids more, how they recharge her batteries. Both talked about being selfish and taking too much before the affair, her saying that she took it way too far (YUP!!!).

Last night she told me that I was a near perfect husband... as close to it as they come. Well, that does help the ego. She is taking complete ownership of the affair. There is a lack of romantic connection for her, and that’s a scary thing for me. Need to make a zillion deposits in someone's love bank when I don't even like her half the time. Well, I'm recommitted to trying. I will continue to give it my best effort.

Hang in there Zen. The rollercoaster is heading up that hill again...to better place right now.

You mentioned in my thread about the nitty-gritty details of the affair:

"This is the thing my wife dreads the most. I'm not sure I want to know! But Dr. Harley gave it to her as the second step for our immediate recovery. Scares the crud out of me, but he said it is for that exact purpose: Helps the BS just move on. Man, I just don't think I'm ready for that yet."

I know it's hard to even think about hearing all that crap. And there have been some good threads here dealing with just that subject. But man I have to tell you, the healing process moved on after I got all the details.

For affair#1 those details were like ripping open the initial wounds of the affair. My wife did things with the OM sexually that she refused to do with me!

It really hurt to hear that, but wife and OM were intimate for a very long time and their relationship was getting 30+ hours of together time weekly. She resented him later and was very regretful. As much as I didn't want to hear those things, I *needed* to hear them in order to move on. And after I heard and processed that info I was able to move on...

Affair#2 the nitty gritty was WAY less than I had anticipated. The hole "can't get it up" and "sex just normal, nothing special" was just what I wanted to hear...okay, probably better than I was ever expecting. And again, it was good to get that out so I could move past it.

Maybe that's the approach you need to concentrate on -- openness and honesty? Get all this crap out on the table so you can see what you are trying to forgive her for!

I agree that I probably need to do this, I just dread it. I feel like our sex life was very mutually satisfying. I haven't talked about this here, but she's the only woman I've ever been with, so there's an additional loss of innocence and intimacy. Our marriage has helped me feel like a strong, desired man, when before I was incredibly shy and had pretty low self-esteem. I'm a pretty good looking person on a totally superficial level, but my dysfunctional abusive childhood contributed to a distinct lack of confidence and self worth. Falling in love with this beautiful smart woman and having her so head-over-heals for me helped me gain the confidence I have today.

I know the OM is not much of a catch. I have no idea what their sex life was like, but I get the impression that it was pretty satisfying. I'm not really intimidated by any lack of ability or performance on my part, it's the thrill of the new and forbidden that intimidates me. So to hear the details in her current state, I feel like she'll be looking at it with that lens. That's scary as hell for me. Even now we are having pretty good sex, but I sense there's an emotional piece missing from her and that's hard enough to take.

My wife has committed to following the steps given to her by Dr. Harley, so we will go through that step, but I would like to wait until we're a little more connected.

Yesterday was a pretty good day. Some good talk about the kids and family in the morning. In the afternoon, she told me I was a wonderful person. It's weird, it's nice to hear that after being dragged through the coals, but it's sad to hear that and know that she doesn't have much romantic attachment to me. We had a nice dinner although our three year old was incredibly whiney. At one point my wife got angry because I forgot to tell her we needed cream for the coffee when she was at the store. It's funny how these things seem WAY worse when feelings are so raw. I told her I didn't know we were out and she had no reason to be angry with me and to let it go. We recovered pretty quickly. After the kids were in bed we just watched TV and chatted. It was a really nice mellow time with some laughs and then some SF (still don't know what that stands for, anyone?) and all night cuddling. Overall, we're back on the ride up the rollercoaster.

Zen, have I recommended this book to you yet? I think it would be a great resource for you two to get back to intimacy and to even take it beyond what you've had before. Plus, it's a lot of fun!

I've been talking with a friend who cheated on her husband about two years ago. When this first came out, she helped me see some of the other side. It's weird, but when we first talked, it sounded like she and her husband were struggling although committed. Just in the last two months, the tone has turned much more positive and committed from her. It's really nice to see. Before the affair she said she had a lot of doubts about monogamy and marriage. Now she knows she wants to spend the rest of her life with her husband, and has found great strength and pride in solving these huge issues with her partner. Pretty inspiring to hear.

Strangely, I'm having lunch with a very old friend today (she was the drummer in my first band - she was 16! Always been like a little sister). When she was over this weekend, she told me that she had cheated on her longtime boyfriend and she identified with my wife. This was really interesting because I think of this friend as a very solid, honest person. She said it was like she turned into a different person, could lie at the drop of a hat. I'm going to pick her brain a little bit more today (jeez that's a gross phrase).

Hi Catperson,

You did recommend that book and I got it! I had one of the scenarios all set up for Friday nights' date night. It was gonna be epic. Instead, we had a giant fight and my wife left the house. Soooo, I'll give it another try.

I think she'll really respond to these - she's more adventurous than me in the bedroom, so this should appeal to her desire to mix it up a bit. Thanks for the recommendation!

What does SF stand for?!

Sexual Fun.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah ha! I was having the hardest time with the 'F'.

Thanks!

My wife was my first and only also. She had a long time boyfriend in HS and they had SF (sexual fulfillment, by the way). When she had affair #1 I thought about revenge sex, but decided against it. Always felt that my wedding vow was sacred to me. After this affair I never really thought about revenge sex, just thought about what it would be like to be single and on the dating scene again.

After dropping some pounds and working hard on ME, I'm pretty confident that I'd find someone. No worries there.

Hang in there Zen. Enjoy the ups, cause you know the downs are coming just around the bend. Prepare for them and stay Steve McGhandi!

Another pretty pleasant and normal night. If anything, this is making it so the regular drudgery of work life and whining kids etc, just pales in comparison to the marriage stress. It makes everything seem comparatively easy. My wife and I are working like a perfect team on kids and household matters right now. It's refreshing. Had a really nice evening laughing and hanging out after the kids were in bed.

She started cooking and planning the menu for the week. She's starting to remember what she likes about being a mom and a wife, I think. Of course I'm wondering when she intends to start working on her MB stuff and the assignments from Dr. Harley...

I mentioned my old friend with whom I had lunch yesterday... It was a really good conversation. She said our conversations have made her look at her own affair in a very different light and made her think about things she hadn't thought about in a long time. She kept saying that she was just amazed that she was capable of inflicting so much pain on someone else and giving into such horrible and selfish behavior. She is very clear-headed about it now. Let's hope our WWs achieve this level of clarity at some point!

Feeling overwhelmed with work and sick kids right now, but I am feeling more hopeful about my wife.

Obsessing... should be working...

One of the things my friend who had the affair said: She lied easily, over and over, even after she was back with her boyfriend. She said as long as she knew she could get away with it, she would do it.

This is nagging at me pretty badly today. Things are going pretty well with my wife, but I have trouble believing that there has been no contact with OM, especially after spending the weekend alone.

I want to take a certain confidence in Dr. Harley's recommendation to pay keen attention to her attitude and the signs that I picked up while the affair was active. It's my hope that this will be the real proof in the pudding. I hope my eyes aren't clouded by what I want to see.

Ugh, this is going to take forever to rebuild trust.

Are you keylogging?

No, she doesn't use her home computer much. I have her email passwords and access to her phone. I know it's dirt simple to sneak around outside that.

I'm not going to turn into a superspy. Sooner or later I'll find out I think, then I'll go from there.

Ugh.

OK, climbing out of my little dip this morning. I've given myself some time to just work through this and try to hang in there. I'll rely on the plan when everything else seems too hard. Gotta avoid LBs while sticking with my boundaries.

I told my wife I'd be setting up more sessions with Dr. Harley. This was my way of gently nudging her to get going on her stuff. She said she needs to create her NC Plan and send it to me.

Zen, just for reference sake, I'm snooping the heck out of my wife even to this day! I check her e-mail three, four times a day. Have keylogger on all our computers and I'm not saying about flexispy.com *cough cough* but that software kicks tail!

If it *were* installed on her smartphone I could see all incoming and outgoing texts (complete with messages) and log of incoming and outgoing phone calls. Nice. It's peace of mind. Granted, the OM stopped calling / texting her back Thanksgiving, but it's nice to have that peace of mind.

If he WERE in town, you can bet I'd have GPS in her car and voice recorder also. I trust her about as far as I can throw her...and she's little, me, pretty strong. I'm just saying...

Sigh. Yep, I think I'm going to have to take some more steps. I'm just feeling too insecure. I just sent her an email talking about this:

"Hi,

I’m having a rough day. Last week and yesterday I was talking to (friend) about us. She said that she had a yearlong affair while she was with (her boyfriend). She said she looks back on it now and feels like she became a different person. Felt she could lie at the drop of a hat even though she had always considered herself an honest person. She said that as long as she felt she could get away with it, she continued to lie. She felt that she wanted to maintain her relationship with (boyfriend) because they were such close ‘friends’, but that this other person represented all these new feelings and she wanted to keep going with that at the same time.

This is what I’m struggling with. You spent the whole weekend away. I have no real way of knowing if you’ve been in contact with OM. I’m worried that you will just tell me what I want to hear so you can keep going with OM.

I saw a message on your phone that said something to the effect of, “Hi. I miss you. I want to see you.”

It’s been a really good couple of days for me, so I certainly don’t want to sabotage it, but we need to reestablish trust, and it’s just not there right now.

I know this is uncomfortable to talk about, but I’m sure you understand that I have every reason to want to. Can you help me with this?"

Does this sound reasonable or am I just asking for trouble? I know, I'm supposed to post first, then send. Feeling cr*ppy.

This was her response. made me feel better. Sorta.

"I'm sorry you're having a rough day. you're right - I can't prove that I wasn't with OM this weekend except that I felt like cr*p all weekend. I suppose you could call up Whistle Blower and ask around to find out if she knows the where about or activities of OM lately because I do not and can not prove where he was this weekend. I wish I had a better answer.

that message on my phone does not say "I miss you" and I thought it was my brother (some stuff loaded weird) before I realized it was just other friends from that blues band I'd go watch - if you log in to my myspace and look at my inbox, you will see a similar message. they're nice people and I've had fun watching them play. I haven't been around and they've sent me a few messages.

I hope that helps.

I know this is hard for you. it's hard for me too. I feel like I'm on a short leash and that if I want to do something, not only is there a trust issue, but you think I don't prioritize my family which makes me feel guilty about wanting anything social. so, I'm trying my best and I'm really sorry you're having a hard day - I hope you feel better. really I do.

besides this weekend - where I worked a lot, I'm not sure when I would have seen OM. I didn't check in friday night until 2:30 or worse, worked the next night until late and turned around to work the next day, then came home. not very exciting. texted you inbetween.

what I do think about when I feel like it's impossibly broken is apartment pricing. that's about as bad as I get. really."

That doesn't sound too bad.

Do you ever wonder if your desperation to save what you THOUGHT you had, is overriding the blatantly obvious wrting on the wall? "This person has hurt you too deeply! They are so reluctant to fix it... Why would you want to continue?!!!"

Sometimes it's only my children keeping me going. Today is kinda one of those days. I just don't like her in some ways. you want someone who has hurt you so deeply to just want to make it all better. Why doesn't she? What the h*ll is wrong with her!?

She seems to get all grumpy when we talk about things, yet when I try to let her go, she begs to come back. WTF? It's the attitude, I swear. She's had aspects of that attitude all along in our marriage but I'm starting to just HATE it. It's like there isn't a humble bone in her body until she gets desperate. How can this be saved? Why should it? Just because it's harder to move on? That's not a good reason. Sometimes I forget why I'm trying.