Hello all, this might be quick as I am staying in a friends house and I don't want to stay on here too long.

Just to let you all that I have been to the police and have made an official complaint. (BTW the children were not present but sister was.) I do have a doctor's report and all that has been registered. The police tell me that they can't do anything to put them out of the house as they are my WH's guests. I don't understand either why they can't do anything but I'm wondering if it's just as well that I am excluded from my own home. Obviously this is not a good situation but we'll see how it pans out. I will be talking to my solicitor tomorrow and I'll explore this with her.

Today my sister rang WH and said that we would pick up the girls at 3pm for the afternoon. I did this and then a neighbour asked us in for a coffee. After half an hour we left and as we passed in front of my home, MIL came out and said to DD11 to come into the house as a friend was going to call back in 10 minutes for her. When I told DD11 to come on because the friend would surely call back later, MIL started shouting insults at me in front of the children (WH and FIL were gone away.) I was stunned and reported this to the police just to have it on record.

Got to run now, guys but I'll give you more info later.

Got to be sociable.
Tully xxx

Guest or not tully that psycho b!%&@ should be in jail.

Does france allow people to just go around hitting other people. Hoenstly tully if there are any guns in the house HIDE THEM. I have a feeling if these people can assault you they have no problem taking it further.

MIL is psychotic and demonstrating signs of unbalanced dangerous behaviour.

If you are with friends.....don't take the girls back there. If you have all 4 girls ask friends to take you by there car else where.....don't use yours especially if WH or POSIL have had access to it.

They might have GPSed it.

If possible get back to ireland now. I foresee this getting worse physically. For your health and safety as well as that of the girls...dear god tully run.

I agree that you need to get back into your home, Tully. But you definitely need a male companion/body guard with you at all times. Enlist the help of a friend who might have a brother or college-age son or boyfriend or husband to lend you. Even if you have to pay someone, do NOT stay there alone.

Just try to stick it out until in-laws leave. They are bullies, just like WH. But your girls are there -- and they need you. Do not leave them with those psychos.

And continue to snoop. Interesting how WH was sooooo interested in your purse. He probably thought you had already taken valuable information.

Keep messing with them, Tully. But do not stay if you feel physically threatened again. You have to be safe if not for yourself, for your girls.

Yes Tully,

Your girls NEED you at home with them. I can only imagine the confusion and pain they feel as they see their father and grandparents chase away their beloved mother.

This is NOT safe for them even if they are not being physically abused.

Abusing YOU is the SAME as abusing them. In America, the courts do NOT look favorably on this.

Blessings,

Good to hear that you and sis are out and about. I disagree that you should make a run for border at the moment. Speak to your solicitor before doing anything rash so it doesn't come back to bite you in the rear.

At least once POSIL are gone you will have 2 less pyschos to deal with and a possible return to Ireland my be easier once they are gone. However, since WH is associated with nutty militants don't be surprised if he has other people watching you. Are ILs retired? Can they stay THAT long? Until then, I'd push MIL into her stroke with a sweet smile. Sorry, but after her behavior, that woman would be dead to me. You have seen that she becomes easily unglued so I say push and push and push. She may be WH's undoing.

What's the deal with the police there? Can you speak to a supervisor or a chief? Inform them that if you or one of your children is harmed by these nuts, that you will hold them liable for failure to enforce the law if they are in fact derelict in their duties. Battery is taken very serious here especially domestic violence. The abused person doesn't even have a choice about pressing charges, the offender gets charged period.

The embassy....could the embassy or consulate be of any help?

I'm back again and with a bit of time to explain things. I see that my last message was a bit rushed and not very clear. I can't believe that the police cannot put these people out of my home. I am essentially homeless at this time and depending on friends to put me up.

I was shocked at the encounter with MIL yesterday as she very clearly was seeking a problem. I would have thought that, after what had happened the day before, that my PIL would have calmed down and seen that things have gone too far and tried to pour oil on the waters but instead it seems to have fueled their rage. It is shocking that this last incident happened in front of the children and in public. My neighbour witnessed the shouting although she didn't hear the words very well as she was in her car. I am worried about the children especially DD11. This a hugely upsetting thing for her but she doesn't want to talk about anything with me. I think she is terrified of doing something that would worsen the situation. After the incident yesterday with MIL she was crying and saying that she hoped it wasn't her fault but she didn't know what to do. I reassured her that it wasn't her fault and played down the incident as being of little consequence but I'm not sure how to handle this. I think it's all too new and raw to go into any kind of analysis with her.

I think that I am in real physical danger if I stay in the house while the PIL are there, although I think the children are safe. It's hard to believe that it has come to this but they have the most incredible sense of entitlement of anyone I have ever met. I remember when MIL wanted to come and take my children from me for Chistmas and felt she was perfectly entitled to do that. I remember as well something that happened 11 years ago when my eldest daughter was only 2 months old. We were on our first visit to the PIL with her. I was trying to breastfeed the baby in the middle of the night and I couldn't get her to stop crying. I was an inexperienced mother and not sure of what to do. My MIL got up and came into the bedroom and took her out of my arms and into her own bedroom. 'Go back to sleep', she said. 'I'll deal with this.' and then she dissappeared. I was so angry and shocked. I shook WH who was half-asleep beside me and told him to go and get our daughter back. He just rolled over and said 'leave it, she wants to help.' I lay there for ages wondering if I should storm into their room and take my child back but I didn't because I was a coward and didn't want to cause a row. I should have.

I have agreed to a mediation process with WH because everyone around me is saying that this is absolutely essential in order to get some kind of acceptable solution. I am not entirely convinced as I think WH is so unreasonable and incapable of seeing anything from my point of view but I will try this process in the hope that something will come of it. I need to talk to my solicitor this morning urgently and make sure that I am not doing something silly by accepting this.

Thanks for your support and advice.

Use this time to ask everyone you know to go with you to your solicitor's office and have written statements on their experience with you two. And any witnesses to this week's fiasco, you need their statements as well. Your solicitor should be able to present their statements to help the judge make a decision. Especially about the shouting and pushing and the Christmas deal and the taking them from you without notice.

Tully,

This is very good advice, while you are in France anyway. Collect short letters talking about your good character. (not only bad scenarios about you and WH). These may help you at the mediator or judges chambers.

Your WH is going to pose that you were too intense or "crazy"-- remember his email about "a lot" of other people in town, who "thought" you were acting wierd- (or something like-- I don't remember his word at the moment.)
You need letters to the contrary. From the people who knew you, in France. Prepare, prepare, prepare.

Have been thinking about you. Really am sending up prayers for your situation.

Praying for you and your littles.

Another way of preparing, tully, is to be clear now about what to suggest as your side of the mediation deal.

As long as your solicitor does not tell you otherwise, it seems to me that H's offer of mediation is a very good thing. It suggests, surely, that he is not yet committed to an all-out war in the courts.

Either he has been advised that he will not achieve his desire to have the girls live in France regardless of the cruel effect on you, or he does not want to make this happen - yet.

So the Irish suggestion - on the grounds that nobody loses - might be a good one for you. (Was this Silda's suggestion? Credit to whoever suggested it - I don't want to lose this reply by trying to look it up!)

tully, I've said to you in email correspondence that I notice a softening of H's language and attitude when you are softer with yours. Goodness knows that I am the last person to tell anyone to tread softly; I have a tongue like razor wire when I'm crossed. However, I'm going to ask you to do what I myself am incapable of doing, and that is to take a conciliatory stance for a while and see how that goes.

Remember the different tone of H's email (posted here) when you pointed out how hard it would be for you to live in France, divorced from him but dependent on his goodwill for your income? Remember how he berated himself for not having thought of things from your point of view, and how he then offered you all his money, bar a small amount for him to live on? Those were not the words of a heartless man (although his other words, at other times, have been breathtakingly heartless).

If you can appeal to his better nature you might find that he has one. Offering OW as an additional incentive, as suggested by b_r, might just clinch the deal.

Publicly berating him for being the basket that he has been might harden his stance. He deserves a public flogging, never mind character assassination, but perhaps not just now.

Hugs to you and the girls.

A few people have mentioned the possibility of embassy help. Just in case tully does not have time to tell us about this, I would just say that British nationals who are married to foreign nationals get no protection when they are in the other country, and neither do their children.

I know tully is Irish, and it might be different for them, but I suspect that British law is not out of step with that of other similar countries.

Hey SC!

I agree with SC that you might get better results with honey vs vinegar. That doesn't mean you have to sappy, but it could be a good strategy for now. If MIL is going to continue be a nut job and make things more difficult for HIM at some point he's going to ignore her or tell her to back off. You have those emails from WH telling you all the things he is willing to give you so put it to the test. At least then you will know if he was just trying to play you and was insincere. If he can't even keep his own word, he's going to look like more of an ahole than he already does. Of course he could always say, well that was before...

tully - Before what? Before you took the children back to France and then assaulted me in my own home? **produces police report**

No matter how he spins his story at this point he looks bad. You have admission of adultery, him hitting you, record of your bad health no thanks to him, and witnesses to his POS parents going nuts. For him to now go back on his claim that he'd financial take care of you FOREVER and he doesn't want to tramatize the girls with an ugly D, would make him...a liar?

You can always give him a public flogging later. Hoepfully it will be a victory dance.

Could you ask thier parents what the goal is of them staying there?

1. Is it to kill you so that the OW can be the kids mom now?
2. Is it to make the divorce easier so the OW can come in and live there?
3. Do they like the OW better than you for thier son's new wife?
4. Do they want to raise the children?
5. Do they want the OW to raise the kids now?

I would like to know just what they are thinking living there in your home and assaulting you. What has your husband told them or lied to them about you?

What about the OW, do they know about her? What do they think about that? Is it wrong or right in thier eyes?

Bring a picture of the OW and show his parents. Then speak deeply to them about all this. Get them on your side somehow.

Mediation with WH? What mediator?

At least there is communication. Yes you get more bees with honey, but I'd have a full can of RAID in one hand and a flyswatter in the other.

What I mean is to try to negotiate <as much as possible> from a position of strength. You WH does NOT need to know you have this information. To the "negotiations" I would bring (or have handy)

His e-mails re: anything with affair, slapping you or selfish demands.
Police reports re: MIL abuses.
Notes from your France friends, attesting to your sanity (hee) and qualities as a stay at home mother.
Any school reports or things that show you were the primary
parent in control of child rearing.

Also a SHORT personal statement (you are a writer) of how this scenario has financially, emotionally and physically taken its toll on you. It is apparent that your WH and PIL don't care. Someone should let the mediator know.

Hold this information close to you. Listen to your solicitor. Your WH has done not much or nothing to show us (even from day one) that he gives a hoot for Tullys basic wellfare. It has been 100% him 24/7. In the last 2 weeks he has taken the children, screamed at her, tried to physically remove her purse from her posession, allowed his mother and father to abuse her,
so today we are going to believe that he is reasonable?!?

I got some swampland lots in Florida (also a timeshare) opportunity that I'd like to offer you kind folks....

IMHO--he is still listening to the advice of this militant fathers group. He probably took the children to force you to this negotiation table. He knows he has made some big boo boos, with the assults- so he'd like to settle this sooner then later.

It will be good to see what his ideas/positions are, but I have a feeling that they are not good. (I hope I am a "american sucker" who has to eat those words nest month, Tully).

First, are you going to be able to choose the mediator?


BTW- There is a prevalent>sp? thought in america that France courts don't see an A as much reason to have a divorce over? --That so?

Heee, hee, SK-- you so funny. Funny as in optomistic-

I think Tully could bring the "Le Miz" of her life to the table and her PIL would side with their son.

Stellakat, tully told his parents (after H's half-hearted attempt) in October. You can read about that on p11 of this thread. When tully went to Ireland in November MIL rang and was very upset about the children's removal, although she knew the reason for it. She rang on and off for a while to berate tully for going to Ireland. At Christmas she rang and announced that she was taking the children from Ireland to stay with her for the holiday - tully mentioned that again in her last post. How could they not know about OW?

They are not on tully's side because they are supporting their son in the custody battle. They have abandoned a DIL that they used to care about.

I think they might well have rewritten history and are seeing her as never having been right for him. It is quite possible that they feel that they have nothing against OW and would be happy for her to become his new wife.

Barbiecat-a huge AMEN to you sister.

This in no way will be easily talked/mediated over. WH is brash enough to allow assault to happen. He is off his rocker.

When things escallate to physical violence. They usually get worse before getting better. This is why I fear for tully's safety.

At the rate these psychos are going. I fear they could commit murder and get away with it. Most likely with the help of the militant fathers rights group.

Forgive me for bringing it up. But I have had a lot of weird feelings towards this case. I know I mentioned my feeling of WH taking the girls. And it happened. Please tully tread cautiously through the asylum of deranged characters. I have a feeling of dread and forboding about this.

Warning to Tully: this is probably not a post that will do your emotional state much good at present. Pass on it as required.

To everyone else: I believe most situations are helped by trying to understand the other side's point of view.

Take out of this situation the initial catalyst - the affair - and look at what's happened to the girls.

(And I'm not minimising the awfulness of the infidelity or the subsequent poor behaviour of the WH.)

Tully took the girls to Ireland for what was presented to the WH and to the girls as an extended holiday break. Then she stayed, keeping the girls in Ireland, as she had actually intended all along. As matters with the children's father failed to resolve, she quickly set about establishing a more permanent presence in Ireland.

Let's put ourselves in the girls' shoes.

They went to Ireland under the impression that they would soon be returning to their home, their friends, their school and the life they had lived since they were born. They were not given any intimation that they might be staying in Ireland - for the obvious reason that they might have spilled the beans to their father and made the escape impossible. They were 11, 8 and 4. The oldest three were certainly capable of feeling a level of betrayal at this.

They're not Irish, and have only limited acquaintance with their mother's home. They are presumably native French speakers for whom English is not the language they think in or speak in most naturally.

They found themselves enrolled in an Irish school, probably thinking that this would be the same type of 'cultural experience' deal that had taken place before. They'd expect to be there, what, a couple of weeks? A month?

Then they begin to recognise that this is not quite what is happening. They know there are problems with their parents' marriage. Their father comes to see them, but is not allowed into the house. They spend their time with him in a tacky motel, or the strange surroundings of a hired apartment. They must, surely, feel disoriented and a little worried?

Their mother begins a business and buys a car. Now, they (especially the oldest) are really beginning to get a cold feeling that they're going to be in this foreign country for a long, long time.

We know that this has happened largely because Tully was anxious not to be stuck in France, chained there by the children. Understandable as her fears are, that may actually have been the best solution for the girls. I don't think we can afford to let our concern for Tully cloud that. The girls were not removed from France for their own safety or welfare, but for Tully's. Tully's welfare does of course ultimately impact on the children, but she DID have other options than moving the girls without warning to Ireland.

If Tully did want to return to Ireland with the girls, it would have been much better, I believe, to have managed that transition slowly and through the judicial process, with the girls being given time to assimilate and adapt to the idea - it would also have been fair to include the girls' own feelings in the decision-making process. Negotiating a job move for the WH might have been part of the divorce dealing.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of their parents' situation,I don't believe that the girls were given adequate emotional preparation for what's happened to them.

This - if you strip it out from the 'poor me' verbiage - is what the WH has been trying to resolve. Be honest: he made every offer he could think of to have Tully return the girls to their home, and to relative normality. I suspect a court will take note of his offers of moving out himself, providing Tully with all his money, doing anything that would get the girls home. If we filter out our anger at his selfishness and arrogance, it's undeniable that he has been deeply anxious to get the girls back to their home. Frankly, I'm inclined to agree with him, as I've made clear many times. I don't think the girls should have been taken to Ireland in the way they were. And Tully herself has said that there was probably nothing he could say or offer that would persuade her back into the marriage or back to France with the girls.

Imagine yourself, finding that your children had been all but kidnapped by your spouse and taken to another country, knowing that they were living in cramped conditions in someone else's house, far from all that was familiar, and that your spouse wouldn't respond to your communications and is adamant that the children won't be returned.

Now, we here know that this kind of situation is the consequence of having inflicted a savage, unfair wound on a relationship of trust. However, it wasn't just the WH who got punished. Whether we like it or not, the girls were the ones who were taking the rap in the worst way. The WH pointed this out, too, although his message was diluted by being embedded in his masterpieces of self-pity and entitlement.

Militant fathers' group, hostile taking of the girls...the upshot is that the children are now back home, and I suspect a court will look at the situation and conclude that this is where they should be, at least for the short to medium term. They are likely to point out that Tully can retain custody while living in France - the fact that she doesn't want to live there will not signify. After all, she married a Frenchman and lived in France apparently happily for many years. Her daughters are French. Staying in France may be uncomfortable, but it won't kill her.

Tully is in a rotten place right now, and now that matters have reached such a pitch, I see no way through it other than using official, legal channels...which will, of course, take time.

This situation is pretty awful for the girls, in any case. They're home, back in their own bedrooms and their familiar things...but their mother is not in the house and their adult carers are stressed to the point of violence. There are probably tense discussions about the possibility of Tully snatching them back. It must be a nightmare. My heart aches for them.

The girls need their mother. It seems to me Tully's interests would be best served by moving into her own home, asking the WH to leave, and setting about the France-based Plan B/Plan D process that should have happened in the first place.

There is no easy way through this. No short-cut. And the girls' interests come above everything else.

TA

On what do you base your opinion that they were beginning to get a "cold feeling"????

I have read this entire thread and have noted that these girls have done REMARKABLY well and WERE experiencing the normal pain that goes along with a family break-up. AND THAT pain was due to their father's adulterous realtionship, NOT Tully taking them to Ireland.

NOW they are living in terror and are basically being held HOSTAGE by their father and their ABUSIVE grandparents.


Are you forgetting the precarious health that Tully was experiencing? She was living with a WH who gave not a WHIT about the health or feelings of his children's mother.


Actually, my understanding is that they spoke English quite well and that with practice they have become TRULY bi-lingual, a PLUS for any child living in this multi-cultural world of ours.

I could go on and on and on. At THIS point, the adultery is almost a moot issue. If the WH really wants to be with the OW, I am not sure that Tully even cares. The issue NOW is abuse and hostage holding. Tully NEVER kept her children away from their father. It was just harder to see them and that was a direct result of his adultery and insensitivity to Tully.

He and his parents clearly have the most exaggerated sense of entitlement. HE actually believed that he could CHEAT and then force Tully to stay in a foreign country with NO family while HE lived as he pleased and "co-parented". HOGWASH! I for one do not believe he would have kept one single promise about finances to Tully. Do we forget that the man is a LIAR?

Tully, forgive me ,but I still believe you need to be in YOUR HOME with YOUR children. Do NOT allow your MIL to take them from you again in any way. My suggestion would be to be there(with a friend) whenever the children are there. Leave when they go to school and return when they come home.

Your children are terrified(again, forgive me. I KNOW that you know this and that your love for your children is the most powerful thing in your life.)

I told you about my friend who lost custody of her children. The thing they blamed her for the most was that she did not come home and get them. The longer you are physically away from them, the harder it will be to get them back.

God bless you Tully and children. I would give anything to come to France and stand by you.