Hi,

Well I managed to get a better idea of what my husband's Emotional Needs might be. And I'm trying to meet his, but he's not trying to meet mine, he's "being nice" to me the way he wants me to be nice to him, and we have the exact opposite needs. And I feel, well, bitter, but I'm hiding it - I know that's not Open Honesty, but I've tried to get us talking, and he *really* doesn't want to. I'm thinking that maybe I should lay off requesting anything from him while I build up at least some credits in the Love Bank. I'm not getting much that I need right now from him, but I certainly committed a lot of Love Busters over the years, so maybe I should concentrate on undoing that harm before I make requests? Does that make sense?

About 3 weeks ago he agreed to start doing the things on Marriage Builders, and even started doing the EN questionnaire. But he never finished it, and every time I suggest doing some more work on it there's always some excuse, and when I ask when, he says "We'll try tomorrow." Last weekend I asked for a definite commitment to a deadline, and he said definitely by the end of the weekend (that was last weekend) but it came and went, so I've given up. So, since MB advocates snooping, I decided to take a look at his questionnaire answers so far. His most important needs (he hasn't done the last page yet) seem to be Recreational Companionship (I knew that would be one), Admiration (that one too), and Domestic Support (that doesn't surprise me either). So, even though I'm working full-time with some major deadlines next week, and he's working at 40% of full time, I've tried to do a lot more housework and also taking care of the kids. He was out of town for three days for work, so of course I did all of it while he was gone, but he doesn't see that part.

I've been trying to compliment him on things every chance I get, say, several times a day. I can see he likes it. Here's something I really need help with though: he returns the favor to me. He even complimented me this morning on doing a good job of cutting up the apples for the kids' soccer team snack. Call me crazy, but I *hate* that! "Words of Affirmation" (in the terms of The Five Love Languages) is so far down on my list it's practically a negative. I despise compliments (and also gift-giving) especially when they seem insincere, and saying I'm doing a good job cutting up apples just seems stupid to me. I would so much rather he just not say anything. What I crave is Quality Time (Five Love Languages term) or Conversation (Marriage Builders term) but the conversation must be deep or enthusiastic (like sharing emotions, personal histories, or even friendly debates) to be valuable to me. I don't want it to be compliments, or attending to tasks. That's the only type of conversation he wants - on his questionairre, he said for both Conversation and Open Honesty that I give him all he wants but he does *not* like the way I do it, and that he only wants me to share information about events of the day or future plans, not emotional reactions to significant aspects of life or about personal history.

About Recreational Companionship, I'm at a loss- his last day away was his birthday (he got back about 10:30 p.m. that night) so I've suggested several things to do to celebrate his birthday now that he's back, and he just kind of says "nah" to anything I suggest. I'm so discouraged.

Really, what are you supposed to do when your spouse's ENs are the opposite of yours, and they are not trying to meet yours, just to meet the ones they would have if they were you? And they aren't willing to find out what yours are (or actually, I think he really knows what mine are, and I think he'd say so also, because I've certainly told him enough but not to the point of him reading my questionnaire). If I ask any more to finish the quesstionnaire or anything, he would see it as nagging no matter how diplomatic I was. And actually, I'm too discouraged to risk the rejection.

And I'm feeling bitter that I'm trying to meet his ENs in the way he likes, and he's just doing things for me that he would like which is the opposite of what I would like. Has anyone else ever felt like this?

-jayne

Certainly identify and eliminate your LB'ers first. LB'ers are what kill love - faster than meeting EN's can build it.

Much of what you describe sounds quite typical and understandable. From your husband's tendency to 'speak' the Love Language he'd prefer to your bitterness at trying to meet his EN's without reciprocation. Even to your statement that your and your spouse's EN's are the opposite. I think it is true that opposites attract.

My wife & I like to joke that we have three things in common. We were both married on the same day & at the same time & at the same church! Other than that - ha! However, if you learn to celebrate your differences, to utilize each others strong points to balance out your weak points, you can find happiness in your differences. And wouldn't it be boring to be married to someone just like yourself...?

I'm going to suggest you read one of my favorite pages here and ponder on a real gem that Dr Harley gives us. The gem is called a Thoughtful Request. But it is hidden in the page titled Selfish Demands (a Love Buster, BTW).

Here's how Dr Harley says to avoid that LB'er: This approach to getting what you need from each other begins by simply explaining what you would like, and asking your spouse how he or she would feel fulfilling your request. If he or she indicates that the request will be unpleasant to fulfill, discuss alternative ways your spouse could help you that would not be unpleasant.

"I've already tried that, and it doesn't work," may be your immediate reaction. It may be that he or she simply indicates that whatever it is you want isn't something they want to do. But that's where negotiation should begin. If you become a skilled negotiator, you will accept a negative reaction and try to figure out a way for your spouse to help enthusiastically with whatever it is you want.

Read the whole page. But see if you can utilize the Thoughtful Request technique to get your EN's met the way you'd like them to be met. Hinting, suggesting, nagging, etc will not work. But if you can brainstorm a way for him to be enthusiastic about meeting your EN's, THEN you'll see how MB'ers realy works!

But start with your LB'ers. I see a few in what you wrote above...

Hi ghnl,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm trying to stop LB's, and I thought I was doing a good job, so if you see me committing some, please let me know. I won't get defensive, I'm trying, I'm just clueless sometimes until someone points it out to me. What did I say? Was it me feeling bitter, even if I hide it? Was it me not being totally honest, even though I think he's tired of my honesty? (His questionnaire even said that - I am open and honest enough for him, but not in the way he likes, and he does not want me to share emotional reactions or personal history.) I was thinking that forcing more of that type of honesty would be a LB based on his answers. Am I wrong? Or is there something else I'm doing wrong?

Thanks for referring me to the Thoughtful Requests article. I saw it mentioned elsewhere too, and I glanced at it, but I need to read it more carefully. Another question: with the thoughtful request, what do I do if I try to keep calm and cheerful but I keep ending up tearful, and that really bothers H? I'm afraid my Thoughtful Request will turn into a LB just because I will start crying.

jayna

you are not wrong, you are different. . . than your H. and in order to have a good relationship, you have to admire the differences, you have to support his differences. . .

NOT because you get something back, but because you love him.. . doing it to get something in return is manipulative from my perspective. . .

so, you need to drop the expectation that you will get something in return automatically. . . tired of honesty is probably because you wrap the honesty in a LB, which you don't realize that you are doing. . .

if you can't stop crying, then leave the vicinity and don't reappear until you are all back together. . . pretty soon he should get the message that you aren't going to force yourself to be hurt and won't stay around if you end up crying. . .

start with that. . . and again, what you have to do is look at your actions as practice, practice figuring out your H so that you can live a long happy life together. . .

so
quit LoveBusting
no expectations of reciprocation by him
don't wrap honesty in a LB
if you get upset, leave the immediate vicinity
tyr to find something in common to do that you H would like, with negotiating some of his time with you.

get your posts going as you are just starting and its about a 50 year project

wiftt

For starters:

OK, you've identified Dishonesty there.


So, you know he's not enthusiastic about 'talking' yet you want him to do so anyway? Consider the POJA:

Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.


See POJA. Did he agree enthusiastically? Or did he 'agree' simply to placate you - to avoid conflict?


So you are calling him insincere and stupid? See Disrespectful Judgements.

disrespectful judgments represent an effort to force our spouses to give us what we want in marriage, but it's often cleverly disguised. Instead of making an outright demand, we present our problem as if it were really our spouse's personal shortcoming. We try to "straighten out" our spouse in an effort to get our way.


My way or nothing. eh?


Then don't make one yet. First get LB'ers eliminated. Not 'under control' - eliminated. But if you study the Thoughtful Request technique, LB'ers should NOT become an issue. A Thoughtful Request avoids LB'ers.

Note that there are three components to the Thoughtful Request. Get all of the steps right and you won't be LB'ing.

1. Simply explain what you would like. This is giving your husband information. It is the vital first step.

2. Ask how he would feel about fulfilling your request. Now he gets to give you information. While you LISTEN!

3. If he indicates that the request will be unpleasant to fulfill, discuss alternative ways your spouse could help you that would not be unpleasant. ...you will accept a negative reaction and try to figure out a way for your spouse to help enthusiastically with whatever it is you want.

I underlined the important point in step #3 - accept a negative reaction. Acceptance is a form of love. Does that make sense?

Hi, wiftt and ghnl, thanks for the input. y'all are opening my eyes more than I realized they were shut, if that makes any sense!

I had no idea I was still falling so short, and my initial response to what ghnl wrote was "But... but... but...." But then I took a minute and considered the possibility that you were in fact correct... I can't believe that I've read all those posts of ppl in Plan A saying how careful they are not to impose their will on the spouse trying to leave, and never considered I should be so considerate. Applying the POJA to whether or not we work on the marriage just blows my mind. I never considered that. It's going to take some time for that one to totally sink in, and to release the feeling that *I* know what we need to do to impove the marriage, and *he* is being "bad" if he doesn't go along.

wiftt, yes I have definitely been expecting something in return. I see that that is not the right way to do it. Question: if I don't (much) "feel" love right now, and I'm just doing it because I want to save the marriage, how does that fit into the "Do it just because you love him"? Is my attempt doomed if my own Love Bank is empty?

I also read on another thread, ghnl, where you said it rarely works to try to get the spouse to start doing the MB stuff, that we just have to start doing it ourselves. Wow. Totally not what I was thinking, but I see now your point.

And here I thought y'all were going to find some little things I was LBing. These are huge.

Question, ghnl: H is so totally against any kind of talking, I really think that even a Thoughtful Request would be painful to him. Even step 1, explaining what I would like, would go against the POJA. I mean, he *hates* any kind of talking except for attending to chores like bills. And even that, for the longest time, he just wanted to communicate after he had already reached a decision, or vice versa for me; he didn't want a back-and-forth discussion, just an informing. Or even better, just an email. He certainly would not be willing to do step 2, give me information. (Ok, so I'm mind-reading; I can't really know for sure unless I try...)

Ok, let me explore this a little bit out loud. Please be gentle in your attacks.

I don't want to try this because:
(1) I think there's a 90% chance he won't be receptive even to hearing step 1 or to doing step 2.

(2) I am afraid I'll start crying, and that isn't allowed in the Thoughtful Request, and actually the nicer he is the more likely I am to cry.

(3) I am actually pretty much in Withdrawal myself, but I am still wanting to save the marriage. But being in Withdrawal, I kind of don't *want* him doing anything nice.

Sheesh. More messed up than you thought, huh?

-jayne

I just wanted to clarify - I'm not refusing to do the Thoughtful Request procedure, I'm just exploring my motives for not wanting to.

Also, I wanted to ask for advice about Independent Behavior vs. POJA. It seems if I follow the POJA then there will be a lot of IB, because that's what H wants. There must be some advice for this situation. How do I manage to arrange for us to spend enjoyable time with each other when he isn't enthusiastic about it?

Jayne,

You really seem to be waking up to a lot of stuff all at once. I strongly commend you for being here and open to a whole new way of living.

"wiftt, yes I have definitely been expecting something in return. I see that that is not the right way to do it. Question: if I don't (much) "feel" love right now, and I'm just doing it because I want to save the marriage, how does that fit into the "Do it just because you love him"? Is my attempt doomed if my own Love Bank is empty?"

Wifty is great at this...I look forward to Wifty's response...I wanted to share with you a whole new way to look at love...so that "Do it just because you love him" will make some sense.

You've been experiencing love as a feeling...when it's actually a belief. We choose to believe we love our partners...that's like our vows we take when we marry...it's a promise...sure, we feel loving at the time...full love banks...not why we vow...like saying, "I'll love as long as I feel loving." That would be living from our feelings, not from our beliefs.

We act on our choice to love...we take loving actions...which comes not from feeling loving...comes from our belief. When we act our love...for instance, you cook him his favorite dinner...we get loving feelings within ourselves from our own choice. Often, those feelings drop off when we don't get the reaction we want (our own expectation) from our choice to cook that dinner. Yet when you were making it, you were feeling, getting the signal, of loving...feelings come from our own beliefs.

Which is why we can love through all sorts of circumstances...KNOWING we believe we love, not relying on feeling loving...which comes and goes. Resentment, jealousy, our own insecurities and entitlement can block our loving feelings...essentially, us getting in our own way...does that dictate that we don't act loving then? Sure, if you want to live from your signals rather than from your beliefs...downward spirals ahead.

You get love deposits from your own acts of love, as well as his...so you choose...you see your choices as your own...and you do them. You benefit from them. You don't base them on HIS reaction...

I hope that helps clears up that part.

Glad you're here...you add to our website.

LA

jayne,

keep reading and posting with questions until you get it. once you do, relationships are a breeze. However, that does not mean that you married someone who is a good marriage partner. . . I certainly did not.

Love is not a feeling, initially. It is a feeling as a result of an action. Love is an action. How can you tell is someone loves their car? because they wash it, spend time with it, clean it and maintain it. How can you tell which sport an athlete loves? because of the drills he practices and the games that he plays.

how can you tell a person that loves his/her spouse? by one that understands him/her and admires their strengths and personality, and is not upset or disappointed with their weaknesses.

Honesty and POJA. . . First, believe in POJA for yourself, and honesty for yourself. Now, that doesn't mean that you have to be fountain spouting off every time. In fact, you don't have to say anything, but when asked about something, you are honest, and you don't agree to do something that you aren't enthusiastic about, period, now and forever.

When asked by your H to do something, and you aren't enthusiastic about it, you respond with, "I'm sorry, I am not enthusiastic about xyz." If its something that you have done in the past, but the time isn't right, then say, "I would love to do xyz some other time, but i am not currntly enthusiastic about it."

Finally, if your H doesn't want to talk much, and avoids talking, and doesn't communicate at all, and you don't have kids, please don't decide to have kids because they will intensify marraige weaknesses.

Also, without kids, i am all in favor of divorcing someone when it is discovered that the marriage isn't working and may never work satisfactorily for all.

wiftty

Thank you, everyone, for your input and for helping me to see my blind spots. This is really cool, it's like one of those pictures that looks like something else when you look at it differently... and after seeing the other picture, you can never go back to not seeing it! And, you guys, I am soooo glad I saw it when I did... I did what you guys were saying, and it was working, and then at church yesterday the pastor spoke about marriage relationships. It was like he had been reading all my posts and was talking straight to me. He divided the sermon into two parts, first to the women (and reiterated everything I've been working on) and then to the men - and he said all the things I wanted H to hear! It was amazing. And H, who isn't a believer, was very much into the sermon and has been doing the stuff the pastor said the men should do. I am so glad I stopped the LBs when I did, and even managed to throw in some ENs, cus I think H would have been less receptive otherwise.

Ok, this is me thinking out loud but someone else may identify also... when I first started following the stuff here, part of the reason I was doing it was in bitterness and anger. If our marriage was going to fail, i didn't want it to be my fault, and better yet, I wanted him to be sad it was over. Therefore, I wanted him to be happy with it first. Another way I looked at it, was to "fake it until you make it." So that's kinda what I meant when I talked about not feeling the love. I've read The Road Less Traveled and know that true, lasting love is an action, a decision, not a feeling, and that you can act in a loving manner (i.e., act in their best interests) even if you don't feel loving. But then when people started talking about love I was afraid you were saying I had to have the feeling also, that otherwise my anger and bitterness might show through - but I was trying to not let it. I didn't really think it would make him change, and I *really* didn't think it would change my feelings, in spite of what LA said:


I didn't really believe that. Well. H still hasn't done the things I wanted re. talking about the stuff here, finishing the questionnaire, etc., but he has been wonderful in other ways. He's being nicer, but also I'm looking at him through different eyes... how did y'all do that to me??? *grin*

Ok before I sound totally nuts I should stop. I know this can't mean we won't have problems anymore, but I feel quite empowered, that my actions could affect such an improvement in both our attitudes.

Hi wifft,

Thanks for your advice and wisdom. I did want to reply specifically to something:


Well, we do have kids, two twin boys, so that makes it so much more important to work things out. H really doesn't like to communicate, and has always been that way as long as I've known him, so it's odd that we got together because that is my number one EN. But in other ways he's really good. I trust him completely as far as not cheating on me. And I am learning how LBs just totally totally make things much worse for him- his reluctance to talk is much much worse when I've given him reason to fear my sharp tongue. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

It's as if the entire universe has conspired the past week to teach me I can't browbeat him into doing what I want. That seems so obvious, I've said it before and read others say it, read other posts of people learning it, but that's not the same as seeing the glaring mistakes in your own life.

He really isn't such a bad guy, and after yesterday's sermon he was more open to the possibility that my needs are not the same as his needs, and he was really trying to meet some of my needs.

One thing our pastor said, that I'm trying to apply as another way to prevent LBs: I acknowledge that H is an intelligent adult with working ears. If I've asked him to do something (like the questionnaire) and he hasn't done it yet, then I guess he chooses not to, and my nagging won't convince him to. (Like the POJA- if he isn't doing what I ask, or if he repeatedly says he will try but it keeps not happening, then he must not really be in enthusiastic agreement.) But my expressing appreciation for the positive things he does do, sure makes life more pleasant and it is more likely to lead to him doing what I want than for me to nag.

(I'm not telling you this, I know you know - I'm just sharing what I've learned.)

Thanks for taking the time to help me along this path.

Hey, thought I'd update.

Things are going great; eliminating LBs is magic. I've had a tough coupla weeks at work, and a coupla times I did LB, but I started admitting it right away and we were actually able to laugh at it - like, "oops, I know I jsut LB'd you for something that's totally my fault, please don't think that's what I really mean, I just feel like pouting cus everything is rotten at work, and you are being so wonderful for smiling and saying "Yes dear" ". The LBs were not AOs, and were not directed at him. That isn't too bad, is it? He knew exactly what was going on at work and it felt really good to sort of have this code between us. Ever since that sermon our preacher gave about Hs needing respect (not submission; respect as in, "I totally respect your abilities/opinions/judgment/etc") and Ws needing love, every time I catch myself about to DJ I stop and make sure H knows that whatever I was about to say, I do respect him and it was either (a) I have a different opnion which I just want to state, or (B) I'm just venting because of work, it isn't about him.

With one of his ENs being Admiration, I've made a point of telling him all the good things I think about him. We got into an argument once because I was asking his opinion about something, he didn't listen to the whole thing and gave a glib reply, and when I tried to give him more info he said "Just go ahead and do whatever you want, that's what you're going to do anyway!" I said, No, I really did want his advice, because this is something he is very good at, much better than me, and he's more levelheaded and that's why I want his advice, I just want his best advice with him having all the facts. It turned out good, I think he was actually pleased that I valued his opinion so much that I really wanted him to have all the facts, and I did follow his advice exactly once he got the facts before coming to a decision. I think he really didn't think I valued his opinion before, and that I just wanted him to agree with whatever I said.

Tomorrow we are going rafting together, RC, yeah! That's another of H's ENs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's with the people at work <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I still think it will be good for us.

keep it up and you will make it, you caught yourself early before too much damage was done. . .

great story, you now know what it takes. . .

wiftty

Thanks wiftt, I'm just not sure if it WAS really before too much damage was done. The rafting trip went great, I feel like I've been meeting his ENs for RC and SF; and until this morning I hadn't committed any LBs. Last night I made a respectful request and thought it went well. After this morning, we're barely speaking to each other, we fought in front of the kids which I feel horrible about, I think me apologizing first would be artificial, I'm wanting to go back into withdrawal, and I'm thinking the only "need" he's been trying to meet of mine is that he brings me coffee in the mornings. All this time of me eliminating LBs and trying to meet his ENs resulted in a pleasant atmosphere - lack of conflict - but my main ENs of Conv. and H&O are not met, and he continues to LB with IB - being online until he comes to bed, and he comes to bed about 60 seconds before he wants to be asleep. I don't understand how to apply the POJA because I don't know how to negotiate, all I can see doing is giving in and it's making me bitter. He probably thinks he's doing all this stuff for me, but it isn't what my ENs are. I just read the thread about expecting certain results and feeling bad when those expectations are not met, I will see what I can do with that, if I can stop expecting things.

Hi Jayne,

Rather than apologizing can you try to talk about what caused the issue in the first place? Or will this just re-ignite the debate?

It sounds like he doesn't want to have to negotiate, and you aren't comfortable with negotiation. Can you try and come up with a couple of doable things that you can try. For example the date night thing. Pick a particular night and then stick to it. If he tries to plan something else, say "Ok, but that means that our date will be on Saturday instead of Friday".

I think sometimes we women don't stick to our guns on things that are important to us and then blow up later.

Hi WebfootGirl,

Thanks for the reply. I could try to talk about the parenting issue again, I don't know if it will re-ignite everything. Even if it doesn't, his technique is to say he hears what I'm saying and he'll "consider it" in his future actions. Sometimes it seems like he makes that effort, and I make a point of praising those efforts, but sometimes it seems like he is just saying that to end the conversation, and nothing changes. How does one person use the POJA if the other person won't do anything?

It's kinda the same with the date night thing. One thing I'm doing which I could change is, I am going into it with some expectations - my thinking is that I want him to put forth some effort to make it happen, I don't want to force it, I want him to want to, and to demonstrate it by helping arrange things like the babysitter. When we are in Canada, like we will be this summer, where he has been living and working, he knows the people in the town and I want him to arrange the babysitter, usually through a particular woman he works with. I could take the reins and call babysitters. That would mean my EN of feeling like he wanted it would not be met. Should I do it anyway?

I'm not trying to argue, I really want to hear suggestions. I've read the articles that say keep brainstorming until you come up with something that both parties are enthusiastic about, not where one party gives in. And if you don't reach that, then don't do anything until you do come up with something like that. Someone asked what if the spouse doesn't want to do anything, then haven't they won by default, but I don't think that particular question, if what the other person wants is to do nothing, was answered. Maybe it's just poor negotiating skills on my part. Am I supposed to find something he wants, and say "If you do X (adjust this parenting technique, or agree to and actually follow through with a date night) then I will do Y (SF, or be nice to his parents when they visit, or ...)? I can't think of much that he might want that I shouldn't do anyway. One thing he might want would be if I said I wouldn't ask him to have any conversations with me the rest of the week, but that's not good. I just can't think of anything here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Reading over what I've written, I certainly sound negative and like I'm not trying to look at things from his point of view. He has a need for RC but I think he likes things other than dinner and a movie. I know he likes things like the rafting trip but those are difficult to do often because it takes a whole day or most of a day, we're both busy in our jobs and babysitters are difficult to arrange for a whole day like that. We could do things that include taking the kids, but that wouldn't be alone time for us. He doesn't like to be touched so massages aren't a good negotiating item. He doesn't like to talk which is why I said I could offer to not expect any other conversation for a week or whatever. Any ideas?

There's other stuff going on also, which is definitely affecting my attitude. One is that we are about to start our 3-day car trip to Canada for the summer. In the past I've looked forward to this, mostly because I crave conversation, and I've looked at these car trips as an opportunity for me to get that EN met, since he's a captive audience ya know. Now I realize that forced conversations are so totally against what he wants, and it's wrong of me to force them on him. Sometimes he says he has enjoyed our conversations, but I'm not sure if he's being honest, and I know that if asked if he wants to talk, he would choose to not talk. So I'm worried about how to behave on this trip, to not take advantage of the captive audience to get my Conversation needs met, and to not assume he'll like a conversation just because in my mind it's pleasant. I'm trying to see his point of view and protect his needs.

Another thing is, he's been on part-time pay, telecommuting, while he has been here with us since March. All his money has gone into paying the bills of the house in Canada, so he's not been contributing to the house we spend 9 months of the year in, to the kids' day care and tuition, or medical bills (I got strep throat twice, the kids had flu, plus they had to get their routine shots, dentists and optometrists, plus I needed new glasses, and we had two ER trips plus follow-ups - DS5a fell off the slide at school, then 6 months later DS5b poked DS5a in the eye with a stick, plus there were about $5000 in medical bills left over from 5 years ago). So I'm feeling a lot of EN for Financial Support, that I'm not getting. Then yesterday I found out that he didn't make the top 4 list for a job he applied for here, so that he'd be able to come back with us at the end of summer and have a job. I'm upset about the political reasons he wasn't placed higher on the list, and I'm upset that he wasn't more proactive about getting this job - if he'd applied as soon as it was posted (and he knew it was coming up, he had inside info from me) then the search could have been closed and would have been offered to him. I'm very worried about finances - I've been reading the Dave Ramsey stuff and trying to apply the techniques and am looking at a mountain of debt that will take me over 4 years to pay off and that's if I don't add to it and that's ignoring the interest rates. I cashed in a large portion of my savings to pay his downpayment on his house, but then we decided it would be best if I signed papers stating I had no claims or title to his house, because his credit rating is better than mine since all the medical bills are in my name.

I'm a real cheapskate, buying oatmeal from the bulk bin for example; he maintains a constant supply of good wine and sake and port. The only expensive food I splurge for is organic milk. I've been in financial holes before, and dug myself out within a year, but this is the deepest, and the first since I've had kids, and the first that my finances have been tied to someone else's, really. (I've been married once before, briefly and we were very young and in school, and had no finances to speak of. The worst that happened to me then was a $500 rent bill.)

I haven't yet told him about not making the short list for this job. Not telling him is very hard for me, I'm a total O&H person. A friend suggested I not tell him, because if he does get the job then knowing he wasn't one of the top choices could hurt his relationships at work. I probably would tell him, but since the argument yesterday morning there hasn't been a good chance to sit down and have a nice, unemotionally charged talk.

Last night he stayed in the living room sending email until 11:00, then he came to bed and went directly to sleep. This morning he got on a conference call at 7:30. When he got off, he came in and talked for 2 minutes (I looked at the clock) about who should take the kids into school, when I needed to go into the office, etc. He just got back from taking the kids to school. I wonder if I should go out there and try to talk to him now.

Well, I just had about the best Thoughtful Request talk I've managed so far. I asked if we could talk, and I told him about what I'd found out about his job application. I said I would like to have some Open and Honest communication about plans and options. He said he didn't have anything to say right now, but that he would listen to anything I might want to say. I talked a bit about the job situation, what might have hurt his chances and what might be done still. Then I said again that I have a need for O&H, and I asked if he would discuss plans and options. Again he said he had nothing to say but was still willing to listen. I said that what I wanted was to hear from him, and then I asked (trying to mirror) if he was saying he didn't want to discuss plans and options. He said no, he didn't have any to discuss. Since he still seemed willing to listen to me, even if he didn't want to talk himself, I stepped full into discussing ENs using MB terminology, which he's read but he never completed the questionnaire. I said that my ENs for O&H discussion of plans, and for Conversation in general, and for FS were not being met and I was feeling very insecure as a result. I talked a bit about my feelings and insecurity, WITHOUT DEMANDING THAT HE TELL ME HIS PLANS. (That was new for me!) I caught myself before I made DJs. I tried to show acceptance - not happiness or contentment, but acceptance - of him not wanting to tell me his plans, while making it clear that that was not what I wanted. I asked if there was a way we could compromise, so that his need to not talk could be met along with my need to talk. He said he didn't have any ideas, and I don't either. I left him alone when it seemed he was done listening and was definitely not going to say anything. I did everything without getting angry - a little teary-eyed when discussing my feelings, but very respectful of his wishes.

I still have no idea how the POJA works if what I want is communication and what he wants is to not communicate. I don't see how to negotiate a win-win situation. I know the answer is that I'm seeing things in black and white and that there are shades of gray, or even more colorful compromises that I'm just not seeing, but ... I'm just not seeing them. I'm obviously blind. Can no one show me the light?

look up the author John Gottman, and one of his findings is that one of the biggest obstacles that makes relationships difficult is stonewalling, which is most likely what your H is doing.

I have not read Gottman, but I have read that he has done some statistical work on marriages, and you might be able to get some information there on how to handle yourself. . . not your H, but yourself in this situation.

I am sure that its very frustrating, as I have dealt with similar issues, not stonewalling but diversionary idiot speak. your H has some issues, possibly some narcissistic tendencies from what i have read from your posts, and you must learn to have strong boundaries. . .

strong boundaries are what you will and won't put up with, and what you will do when you come across what you won' put up with. .. its not easy, but you have to learn how to graciously decline crap when its thrown your way. ..

Gottman is first, Townsend and & Cloud is second. . .

good luck

wiftty

ah, this does not read well. . . this reads like a manipulator with future expectations of needing extra financial security. . . and using others to pay for it temporarily. . . .

i am not liking your situation at all. . . this reads like he is a leech. . .

wiftty