Can we change the subject?

EO - I hope that you don't feel like I 2x4'd you. I don't have a dog in this fight (See that? See what I did there? "...dog in this fight."? In jayne's thread about her dog? ). I'm just a 3rd party expressing my observations. However, I acknowledge that there might be more history behind your concern for jayne that I'm aware of.

You just don't like it because it's about dogs and not Satan's minions (aka, cats).

I was asking you to stop accusing Stella and I of stirring up trouble and telling you to nag your husband. Point taken, it's your thread, blast away.



I hear you still think that I want you to stop talking about things that you're happy about. I already said what I had to say about that.



I hear you read my apology, but think that I will continue to criticize you when you post about things you are excited about. makes sense to me that you'd need to see a change before you'd believe it's not just empty words form me.


I hear that my behavior is abhorrent to you as the 2x4s BSs who refuse to expose get. Well, that's a visual that would be effective at helping me remember to Preview twice before I hit Submit.



Thanks for sharing. I am not asking you for an apology. When I see someone doing those things, I think I have been with you encouraging them to consider alternatives to those behaviors.

Ok, thanks ... and I apologize for allowing myself to get so frustrated that I started being rude.

cat and Seabs...

ears: just cus I get frustrated doesn't mean I don't love you. Sorry for being rude.

Thanks, Seabird. I didn't feel 2x4'd at all. What you said about respecting that your partner will be clear when they are not enthusiastic I took as good food for thought, worth logging in to read, something that I'd like to chew on before commenting.

My first response would be that it may be dependent on the situation. With my sister, for example, when we make plans, she will not agree unless I am 100% enthusiastic. We have so much overlap of stuff we enjoy, that there is no need to try to come to some compromise that we don't both love. So I think it wouldn't surprise you when I tell you my sister is one of my favorite people to spend time with.

Apology accepted.

Phew! I was getting upset just reading the dialogue between you two--I can imagine how the two of you felt!

BTW, did Jayne tell ya she decided to get a hamster instead?

::running away:::

OH, you are SO funny! Who knew?!

I'm hysterically funny when I'm not trying to pick my marriage up off the floor and put it back together with Duct Tape and paper clips.

EO - Just a point of clarification... I'm not saying that a partner will always be clear when they're not enthusiastic. In fact, I doubt that's the case the majority of the time.

What I'm saying is, we have to let our partners own their refusal to be clear when they're not enthusiastic. Does that make sense? We can try and encourage them to be O&H about their reticence and reservations. We can be reassuring about our desire for the truth without passing judgment or going into Conflict.

But eventually, they have to make that choice to be O&H. And like everything else in life, choices have consequences. If your concern that jayne's H is choosing to say yes to something he doesn't really want is correct, then he needs to be held accountable for that on his own. jayne is only accountable up to a certain point. In my mind, that her responsibility is to clearly communicate to him that it would be okay for him to say no.

After that, if he chooses to resentfully agree with her, then that's his choice to own, and his consequences to deal with. In my opinion, jayne is doing her due diligence; giving him the opportunity to be O&H about his feelings.

Thanks y'all for the humor!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I guess I kinda lost it yesterday. I'm sorry about that. I'm quite embarrassed today.

Anyway, just for those interested...


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Jayne has already said that her H is enthusiastic in this specific case. It was not my intent to claim that she failed to reach POJA on that. But independently, several different folks read that I said something like that, so it makes sense to me to accept that I misworded my message to say that, even when it wasn't my intent.

Seabird, I get you, that we need to trust our spouses to be O&H with us.

But I do think that there are situations where it's kind to others to consider what you already know about their likes and dislikes, too. My neighbor will pick up my daughter from school if I ask, but I already know that sometimes she will say yes even when it's a huge inconvenience to her and it would be kinder to ask another neighbor that day. I don't want to gain at her expense. So before I ask if she can pick up Sweetie, I ask her, so what are your plans this afternoon?

You may be right, she may well be saying yes in a bid to get her own attention that she needs to learn about boundaries. Maybe I am keeping her from some consequences that would help her. But that would be at my kid's expense, because my friend would be cranky and tired. And it would also be my loss too if she decided, "Forget it, I've been helping her out too long. I don't even want to be her friend anymore, because she's always asking for stuff without asking me if it's a good day for it."

That raises an interesting specter EO, and one that I've been pondering back and forth for the last several months as my opinions have evolved. Being completely out of my former marriage and having established very (VERY) firm boundaries w/re to my relationship with the XW, I've gained a new persepctive...

Not all relationships can and should be maintained. Chemistry, both in friendships and romance, are part inherent and natural, but they also require a great deal of work. We focus so much here on things like maintaining our own boundaries, accepting responsibility for our own behavior, living with the consequences of our own choices, etc., I fear that we sometimes forget the other half of the bargain... Our partners MUST do the same. We can't do it for them. If we are successful at it ourselves, that's great for us. We live successfully on our own. But if our partners fail to hold up their side of things, the relationship will still fail. And IMO, it -should- fail.

I read in your example that you choose to protect your friendship by taking responsibility for what your neighbor might choose to do. I view that as a net cost - to both of you. It adds another responsibility to your "basket of responsibilities", but it also prevents her from making a fully informed and independent choice. Would it surprise you, that if she knew your rationale, she might be hurt or offended?

An example from the opposite perspective... I once wore a hat at work that I wasn't really hired for and that didn't dovetail with my other responsibilities. I liked it though. I liked the work and I liked being the go-to person. When my manager changed, he took it away from me and gave it to a coworker. I went to him and asked why he did that? I was concerned that it was a reflection of my performance. He acted surprised and replied that wasn't his intention at all. He thought he was doing me a favor, relieving me of this additional duty. He never asked. He just assumed that I resented the extra work. In fact, I resented the loss of responsibility.


jayne -Sorry for the TJ. Beautiful dog! I am very excited for you. Does she have the tattooed lip?

Okay Seabird, thinking it through a little more, I am trying to make an informed decision. Do I want to send my daughter running errands with one neighbor, or playing at another friend's house who is home? So I could ask her if she can pick up DD, and then ask what are her plans, and then say, oh, no, don't worry about it, I'll ask neighbor 2 instead. Other parents say that to me and I'm not offended. So I think that is more a mutual thing than an enabling thing.

I hear you that part of the consequences for a person's behavior is that their partner may or may not feel love for them and may or may not be willing to continue in the marriage. I think that's a very personal decision.

Sure EO. In your example, I think it's most thoughtful to simply allow your friend to make her own decision with all available info. "Can you do this for me? If it's inconvenient, I have another option. If you say no, I won't be adversely affected.". I think the danger comes from the uncommunicated assumptions. You fear she's saying yes, even if it's a detriment to her. She's afraid to say no because you're in a lurch and you don't have any other options. Both of you are willing to sacrifice for the friendship, but the other person fears the potential for resentment. Here's where it gets really sticky... She assumes you need the pick up help and you're at a near crisis level. She complies with the favor because you desperately need the help. In reality, you weren't in crisis and had a backup. As a result, she might be expecting a higher level of gratitude than you show.

Please don't take any of this too literally. Right now I'm just sort of speaking in suppositions and maybes, etc... It's kind of academic. Typing "out loud" as it were to probe for failures in my own logic.

At the expense of jayne's thread. Sorry jayne. You want me to quit?

Seabird, that's the other thing, thanks, to make it clear I'm not in a lurch. Who the backup I have in mind is. And that I am able to pick up DD7 myself if they don't.

Don't worry, I'm not taking it too literally. Fortunately work's been very smooth and I haven't asked for outside help in a while.

No, feel free to continue the discussion.

FWIW I always *hate* it when ppl pussyfoot, second-guess, assume, etc... about me. DH and I (yes he's back to a D again!) have an agreement not to do that. Cus otherwise you have stupid things happen like, he might think he's doing me a favor by not asking me to do something, when it's actually something I would've liked to do... or something.

I also just plain resent ppl trying to manipulate me. My mom does that. Acts like she's being nice and all, and acts like she's scared of a response, like she has to walk on eggshells... and that's her excuse for not giving an honest answer. She will hardly ever give a straight answer, you can tell she's trying to guess what you want her to say. I guess a better example of what I was trying to describe above with H, is: say for example DH and I want to take my mom out to dinner, and I'm trying to ask her where she'd like to go. She won't just blankety-blank answer the stupid question. She'll maybe say some place that none of us want to go to cus it's really cheap, or maybe cus it's close, or something. When you try to press her for what she *really* wants to do, she acts like a martyr or something.

That is just simply not how I like to live, and I don't have much respect for it.

So for example, wouldn't it just be plain stupid if I didn't get a dog because I *assume* that H doesn't want one, even though he repeatedly says he's fine with whatever I choose to do and he will support my decision and says we'll make it work? I dunno, maybe I think more like a guy cus I certainly don't spend my days trying to figure out what he really wants without just coming out and asking him, and I don't revolve my life around what I imagine he might want. The thought of doing that disgusts me.


ETA: Did I use too strong language? I just feel kinda... dirty or something, thinking about what my mom does. That wasn't aimed at anyone here.

Well I guess I offended ppl enough that no one other than Seabird is gonna say anything nice about my dog. Oh well. Thanks Seabs.

FWIW she arrived safe and sound, along with an American Bulldog on the same flight. We all went to pick her up, then got some carry-out sushi and sashimi and brought her home. After a walk and dinner DH got out the video camera and took some movies of her, and was petting her more than I was. We got the kids in bed, and while I read to them DH fell asleep with her in front of the fireplace. I was gonna take her outside one last time before bed, but she wouldn't come with me until DH officially handed over her leash to me. So they can't hate each other too much.

She slept in her crate in our bedroom, then as soon as I woke up I took her outside. We walked to the national forest (it is just on the other side of the house next to ours) but we didn't go too far inside cus I was just wearing a thin nightgown under my coat. When we came back I climbed back into bed with DH. After a bit, the kids were up but the dog kept them busy so DH and I were able to have morning SF.

The kids now have a boy scout thing, they are getting together to make pinewood derby cars at someone's machine shop. DH and the kids are gonna drop off me and the dog at my work, and we'll meet back up when the kids are done.

Horrible horrible thing I've done to me family.

This is [Jayne241's DH]:

Onni seems like a very nice dog. Our kids enjoy her, and I'm sure I will too. The cats may take a bit longer...