So.. I'm new to all of this. I have never posted or participated in a forum. So bear with me and forgive me if I don't do this right..

I have been married for 3 years. I know, not the longest time. But long enough to know that I do not want to live the rest of my life the way the last three years have been..

My husband and I have had our issues. We are a younger married couple. We have two children, age 2 and 8 months. When we were just dating, everything was wonderful. I cannot remember a single time that we fought. My mother-in-law and I got along wonderfully. It was like one of those disgustingly obnoxious movie-type relationships where everything was perfect.

That all changed the day we got married. All of the sudden I was no longer just the girlfriend but that evil harlot who stole my mother-in-law's baby from her.

Over the three years that we have been married, anytime we have ever gotten in a fight, my husband goes running home to Mommy and she babies him. She will take him to his favorite restaurants, make him his favorite meals, take him shopping; whatever she can do to show him that she is a better woman than I am. She will call me and text me and tell me how horrible I am for whatever I have done, but is never willing to listen to my side of the story.

Eventually, my husband and I will make up or whatever, and things will be fine between us. But there is still the tension with my mother-in-law.

Well, lately, things have gotten extra bad. My husband's brother is in the middle of a divorce. Ironically, because of a lot of the same issues I am struggling with my marriage. My in-laws feel as if I should not speak with my soon-to-be-ex-sister-in-law anymore, given the upcoming divorce. But she and I have always been close. Our husbands are identical twins. Our children are 14 days apart. We live minutes from each other. She has never done me wrong, why should I boot her from my life just because she and my brother-in-law are no longer going to be married?

Well, my mother-in-law told me that unless I will agree to not talk to my sister-in-law anymore, I am not allowed at their house anymore. My husband is, and my children are. But I am not. I am not even allowed to go there to pick up my children if they happen to be there one day with my husband or while I am at work.

And this is where the fight began. I feel that, since we are married, my husband should stand up for me. I don't know if anyone here is religious, but I am. It states in Genesis that the description of a marriage is this: "That a man shall leave his father and his mother, and cleave unto his wife; that the two shall become one flesh." That being said, I feel that by banning me from their house, they should be banning US from their house. I feel that my husband should tell them that if I am not allowed there, neither he nor the kids will go there either. I don't feel that I have done anything wrong. I have not done anything to them. I have simply kept a friendship.

Am I wrong for thinking that my husband should stand up for me?

I don't want him to be alienated from his family, but I feel like his mother has become "the other woman". They have always been a close family. They do a lot of family things together. Well, lately with me not being allowed, this has meant that he spends all of his time at his parents house or with his parents out doing things, while I am at home, alone with the kids.

I feel so wrong for being jealous of his mother. Isn't that sick? That I feel like my husband is cheating on me with his own mother? But that is exactly how I feel. It's either her or me. And she is making sure that she has all the right things to bribe him over there. She has been making him his favorite meals. Taking him to fancy restaurants. Buying him tickets to concerts with them, but not buying me or the kids tickets.

I cannot sit back and let this happen anymore. I told him today that he had to make a decision: Either stand up for me, or we are done.

Am I wrong for giving him an ultimatum?

I don't want a divorce. I love him. I cannot imagine life without him. Altogether we have been together for 8 years. I cannot imagine raising our kids alone. But what other choice do I have?

I will gladly read any comments or suggestions.

ANY guidance would be appreciated.

Thanks!

WOW!!!

I don't rightly know where to start....

I have been through MIL h3ll too... to the point that it caused many problems within the marriage.... my advice... well what is it that is the most important thing to you right now... your marriage or this friendship

Hasn't your MIL drawn a line in the sand for you to make a choice... you made a choice and your H is not siding with you...ouch that hurts... what reason does you H provide in this situation... does he feel you should back off the friendship or keep the friendship then go to moms.... or is he being neutral

I am a Christian... I am familiar with the verse... I have also done a lot of reading up on boundaries... regarding my boundaries and marital boundaries.... I suggest you check out the book Boundaries (there is one called within a marriage too) by Townsend

Anyway you are responsible for your fence that you place of what is allowable and not allowable... you then through others trash out of your yard... so are you telling me you placed a fence around you and your husband and you expect him to pitch the trash.... see it doesn't sound like you both place a marital boundary down... sounds like you are trying to get him to enforce your boundary... the boundary of if I say or do something you must stand up for me- because we are married and that is the rule...

See I have learned that a marital boundary kinda has to be agreed upon... I know it is confusing because there are some things we assume about these boundaries- like our husband walk in and see us getting the crap beaten out of us- well we kinda expect them to stand up and fight for us.... kinda like your assuming that he stands up for you with the MIL... but your assuming- which gets us into trouble...

I just wonder what your husbands take on the situation is... see mine would say things like...oh my mom would never say such a thing, I can't believe she would say that... I thought he did not believe me... like I was making it up... I wanted him to confront her... but he wouldn't, he'd say if you have a problem with the way she treats the kids- you talk with her... in counseling I realized that his M punishes by withdrawing love- sound familiar- don't do what I say and wham- your punished, get eye-rolls, and your kids are treated like crap-

Well what I learned in counseling was that it was easier for my H to take the crap she pulled and have VERY limited contact with his family than to stand up for what he really felt.. the crap was better than the rejection

Once I wrapped my head around that, then started placing my own boundaries with her- life became much easier

One last little piece of advice... never threaten anything you are not ready to follow up on... your husband might take you up on the offer and run home to mom.

I will look up some stuff in my book and try to post it

havingfaith

I guess the part that I am stuck on is when do I decide that enough is enough?

My husband is one of those "if you don't address it, it doesn't exist" kinda people.. You know, like a most men? lol

So he won't ever just come right out and address an issue. Regardless of whether or not he has an opinion.

He feels as if everything is always left better unsaid.

And I am the exact opposite.

But we never really realized this until we got married.

I understand that if a nightmare occurs and we do get the big D, it's not his mother's fault.. I understand that a marriage is between a woman and a man, not his parents.. But I feel as if she is deliberately doing all of these things just to prove to me that she is better than me. I understand that if he chooses not to stand up for me and that I cannot accept that, that it is our fault that we go our separate ways, not hers. But nevertheless, I feel she is, at least partially, to blame.

My parents are still married, after 31 years so far. And they had similar situations with my father's mother and her feelings toward my mother. My grandma did not approve of my mother for a number of reasons. My father stood up for my mother to his own, and said either accept us or lose me. So he was completely disowned by his own sister and parents. And I don't want that to happen to my husband.

I know that family is big to him. I know that they are close. I used to be part of that closeness, for the first five years. But the moment we uttered the words "I DO" everything changed.

I am scared that there are only two extremes here: either his parents are going to disown him, much as my grandparents did to my father; or that we are going to end up another statistic.

Either result is a negative result.

How do I find a happy medium?

Is your husband home or at his mom's? if he is at home and you want the marriage to work...(seems you do or you wouldn't be here asking for help)...I would consider apologizing for making the statement that he stand up for you or you walk... understand this will be a long process for him... sounds like he is in an enmeshed family situation and runs the threat of losing his family... I'm sure if yall come up with a plan that works for both of you...

before you sit down with him try to have some details of your own worked out...

when you and your husband talk about this situation how does it play out? are you coming across like you are telling him, she did this so you must defend me...

change it up... they say if you change the steps of your dance your partner will too....

have you tried holding his hands and saying, "I am hurting and I need your help. I need you to help me come up with a win-win situation for us- the Kdew team. What can we do to bring our Kdew team into a healthy relationship with your family/" Then describe what a win-win picture looks like...ask him what his looks like... listen to him... respect him... then ask "how can we blend our pictures to make one we both like."

If you have not tried such an approach he might be floored... if he is used to why didn't you say this or how come you always run to you mother... blah blah...

It sounds like you feel like you get his leftovers from his family, as if his real allegiance is to his parents... if that is the case I highly recommend yall get that Boundaries book, there is a workbook that accompanies it... work it together... is he willing

You need to understand you cannot change him or your MIL. You only have power over yourself.

havingfaith

I really wish that you would go to the library or book store and pick up the book "The Dance of Anger" by Harriet Lerner. She address triangle relationships in one of the chapters, and that is what you have going on. You will need to start dealing with your mother-in-law and your husband separately. I think the book would help you do this.

While you would like your husband to put his foot down with his mother, he sees no reason to. In fact, if your mother in law has that much power over him, he is even less likely to see the need to confront her on your behalf. They have a life long dynamic going on. You would be better off telling your mother in law how you feel and setting some boundaries with her directly. Somthing like, "I can't stop him from telling you about our problems, but if I want to discuss them with you, I will call you. You do not need to call me."

ETA: The Boundaries book is good too!

Exodus,

I have tried addressing the issues with her. She will not answer my phone calls. If I call her, she responds like a child and declines my call, yet will follow up with a snippy little text message about something. I am not allowed at her house. She has already stated that if I show up at her house, she will call the cops on me and file trespassing charges.

Believe me. This is not beyond her. My (soon to be ex) sister in law is dealing with the repercussions of these charges as I write.

I am trying to be the bigger person here. I am trying to have a face-to-face discussion about this. But how do I do that when no one is willing to cooperate?

And havingfaith,

The biggest problem I have with my husband is that he is NOT willing to try. We tried counseling. We tried both traditional marriage counseling and Christian marriage counseling. And both were without fail, because he felt like he was being attacked. I tried to explain to him that he was not completely at fault in things. I tried to explain to him that in our separate sessions, our counselor would discuss with me things that I was at fault for, as well. But he felt alienated and like everyone was pointing the finger at him. So he refused to continue.

I still went a few more times, nonetheless. And, actually, I got a lot out of it. But I think my husband is just giving up. I honestly feel that if I were to walk away today and never look back, he would go down without a fight. And it kills me to say that. The fact that his identical twin brother is newly divorced isn't helping the fact either. He sees his brother's newfound freedom and lack of responsibility as the ideal situation. His brother lives with his parents. Does not have a single bill to pay. His mother (my mother in law) raises his daughter for him. He comes and goes as he pleases. He is living the ultimate dream.

So, seeing that, my husband thinks of divorce more as a paradise than as a disaster.

Some days I feel as if I am beating this to death. Some people say I should just pick up what is left of my pride and accept that things are over.

But I don't want that. I know that once upon a time, things were wonderful. I know he has the ability to be an amazing husband and an amazing father. I know this because he used to be that man.

I know that people change. That's part of life.

Is this the new him, and I'm just supposed to deal with it?

Kdew-

Seems if you want your marriage to work you need to try something different then what you've been doing... I understand and hear the fear of the grass is greener... have you told your H of this fear?... when you talk with your H do you use "I" statements such as, "I feel like we are slipping apart and when I see your brothers situation, I can see how alluring that might be." then be quiet....


You and your H have grown up from two completely different kinds of FOO (family of origins)... neither is right or wrong- just different... remember that

It does sound like your MIL is "different" but she is your MIL, the mother to you H... remember that... remember I have my own axe to grind with my MIL... but she is the mother of my H... there is always a bond (even though neither of us may understand it- it's there :))

You don't have to drag your H into counseling to fix this... look at your approach... what is it that makes him feel attacked... reread what I suggested as a conversation... place yourself in his shoes... do you feel attack?.. if so change it...IMO his feelings of being attacked are some kind of signal that something was said that is true- but he is not even feeling safe to tell you... give him a safe place to talk


I have learned to say something to H, then wait- sometimes it seems forever- if I don't get a response...I simply say "are you trying to figure out what to say or ya still thinking about what I said" I think it takes the man brain a little longer to process and then speak... give him the time

what is a win-win compromise for you and your H? Right now what is most important your H or your XSIL? I would think if the XSIL is a friend and a friend of marriage, she would totally get what you may need to do- for NOW- to get over this hurdle.

Think of your situation this way- you are in a war for your marriage... you may lose a couple battles, but it is the war you want to win, right?

havingfaith

havingfaith,

I have tried to talk to him about these things. And I have given him time to think about things. When I go back, whether it be hours or days or weeks, to re-address the issue, he says that he has nothing to say. He says he forgot about what I said. Or that he just didn't think about it. How can you not think about it? It is the foremost thought on my mind, every second of every day. It's like to him, it's just a simple decision, like whether to put grape or strawberry jelly on your toast in the morning. He doesn't think about the consequences, the long term effects. He told me last week that he doesn't see what the big deal is - our marriage is just a piece of paper anyway. It doesn't mean anything to him. I am just making divorce seem worse than it really is.

This all actually started almost two months ago. But this time is just dragging on and on. If I try to discuss things with him, he just always tells me it's not a good time. He's got a fishing trip to go on with his brother. Or his show is on TV. Or he's tired. Or he just doesn't want to deal with us. Always something.

I think the reason he feels attacked is because he knows that it is easier to put his defenses up and shut down than to actually deal with what's on the table. Easier to run, ya know?

I 100% honestly feel as if the only way to 'resolve' the conflict is just to pretend like it isn't there. If I just go on about my day, and completely submit to him, things are fine. On the outside at least. But inside, I am completely dying. And all that does is the next time we get in the smallest of arguments, the past comes pouring out. Because we never deal with it.

I feel like he is already gone. He is at his mother's house. He doesn't talk to me. He doesn't even want to see his own kids. And this all just kills me.

Ugh..

A win-win compromise with me would simply be that I have my husband here again and that my mother-in-law would just let our marriage be our own. I don't want to ban him from their house. It's fine if he wants to go there. And if she really doesn't want me there, that's fine as well. But I don't want her to do what she's doing - inviting him somewhere EVERYDAY, knowing that even on a good week, with work and the kids, we would only see each other 4-5 times. I can't even remember the last time I saw my husband. She is deliberately doing this. And my husband is absolutely loving it. I understand why. I would love for someone to do all the things that she is doing for him. But I cannot just sit back and be single mom to our two kids.

I am scared that we are getting to the point of no return. He has said so many hurtful things to both me and the kids. He rarely apologizes. And, when he does, it's those "I'm sorry for [insert reason here], but if you wouldn't have done [insert excuse here], then I wouldn't have had to do it."

Nothing ever gets resolved. It just gets ignored. Well, I am getting worse and worse at this 'ignoring game' as more and more issues get swept under my table.

well the problem with sweeping things under the table is that eventually the pile is so big you can not ignore it any longer...

well to me it does sound like your marriage is in trouble... if I hear you correctly... he has put up a wall and will not let you in... he has retreated to the safety of his mother... and she is loving it... right so far?... and you are feeling hurt and rejected...

okay... there are a ton of solutions to every problem... we just need to come up with a different approach, a new plan...how much work are you willing to do?...no one said marriage is easy... lets come up with a different approach- kay?

maybe just for a while you halt the contact with the xsil, explain to her what your goal is- to mend some bridges in your own marriage and to do this you must focus on that relationship, you wish you could be there for her- but unless her xh is willing to tell the mil its okay- then you must stop FOR NOW... got it only for now... a true friend would understand- especially one that has walked this path... don't you think

and now that you have halted the communication... let your husband know what you did... and the reason... that he and your marriage mean so much to him that you have given this gift to him... you want to have a good relationship with his family... ask him to call his mother- right then and share the good news...

when at mil remain nice...don't sink to her level...find something neutral to talk about... the kids...work...etc...but your marriage- no... sil- no... whatever it is that might cause conflict don't engage....have a statement prepared, like oh that's too bad, say nothing else then excuse yourself to the bathroom...

okay... then you let it go for now... and you start dating your husband again... what was it you did when you first got married that caught his eye?... what are his top needs? probably SF right?... well MIL can't do that- okay girl... task one: do it!! greet him each day with a long kiss- I read something like a 15 second kiss- well I have been doing this for two weeks now... and my H has stated "wow that was a nice greeting... my response- oh honey wait till we go to bed tonight!"

then I called him the other day and said "I read something interesting the other day, want to try it?"...his response was ok without even knowing what it was- ha I teased him- you just signed up for a week long marriage retreat... then I said I read that it would be helpful that if we set one night a week as a SF night... guaranteed s3x... he jumped on that idea... I said okay pick a day... funny he picked that night... then I explained that the only rule was we had to make that a priority- we don't let anything get in the way... the kids will be in bed early- maybe they miss a bath- they will not die- see then you can text/ e-mail him all day about the night- get his mind there... if something about MIL comes up- like mom called and I need to run over there- say, fine I'd love to go with, because just seeing you makes me want you more for tonight...


don't let her be an issue... seems like your pushing so much... he is in a lose-lose situation... and right now mom is the most pleasant thing going for him... she probably isn't nagging him about you... and if so- in his mind he is probably agreeing...
just my take

okay... think of other things you can do... do you stay home or work... maybe call him and say I'd like to meet you for lunch... let him know on Monday your making his favorite meal Tuesday with a special dessert... whatever... ask him out on a date...find a friend - not xsil to watch the kids and go out and have fun... reconnect...

put some deposits in his account... stop taking them out...

see I think with enough deposits... he will turn around and be more open to your situation... right now he is closed off... when this happens your marriage is on a slippery slope to disaster

let me know what you think of taking a different approach... I do think you still need to apologize to your spouse for the ultimatum you provided..."I am sorry that I said that to you, causing you pain and placing distance between us."

havingfaith

havingfaith,

So. I agree with everything. And I have tried most of it.

STBXSIL: I haven't talked with her in almost two weeks. I explained to her that it was causing issues with my marriage and that, for now, until things blew over, I was gonna keep talk to a minimum. And she understands. And my H knows that I haven't talked to her. But he can't get past the fact that I have been talking to her. So I guess that's really all I can do on that for now.

MIL: I don't talk with her about things. I don't discuss my marriage or my BIL's divorce. Because I don't feel she should play a part in my marriage more than being part of my extended family. And me butting in on my BIL's divorce would make me no better than she. But she's not that kind of person. She HAS to be involved. In EVERYTHING. If I try to change the subject, she will continue to press it. To her, my changing the subject is just as awful as arguing - it's like an admission that I disagree and am avoiding an argument. She knows that I am not talking to STBXSIL, but cannot get over the grudge. She has heard this from me, my H, and my STBXSIL. No luck there.

H: I am trying to do all of those things with my husband. But it is really hard when he does not come around. How can I date him and do nice things for him, if he is not here to witness them? I have asked him multiple times over the past weeks to go to dinner, just me and him. Or to let me make him dinner. Or to go do something date-like. "There's no point. Things are done." But they aren't. Honestly, there has been nothing done that was divorce-worthy, other than the lack of presence. I feel like I am a single mom. I feel like I am divorced already.

I went out last week and bought "The Love Dare" (from the movie Fireproof, if you saw it). And I am on day 4. But, like I said, it's hard to execute the dares without him here. If I call, he ignores it. If I text, he ignores it. If and when he does choose to call or text, it is so hard not to answer with "Well where were you when I needed you?" But I have refrained, thus far.

The only way I feel we can start over again is if he leaves his mother's house. I am not allowed there, so I can't go see him. And he knows that. So everything is on his terms. And, well, lately that has been never.

I don't want to be the fool who is sitting at home while her H is moving on with some OW. Ironically, that is exactly what happened with his parents' marriage. They say history repeats itself: Is that what I'm in for?

So you bought one book. But did you buy the book that was recommended to you here? The Dance of Anger? It will probably do you a lot more good than the one you bought, because it is specifically addressed to your issue.

The only thing that will work in your situation is YOUR boundaries. Not your husband's, not your MIL's. YOURS. What you will and won't accept in a marriage. Once you determine those boundaries (no running to your mother in a fight or you move out, etc.), you have to be willing to use them.

He will never change out of a desire to change. He will only change (stand up for you) if he decides that he wants you in his life more than he wants to please his mother. That's it.

Until you get him to realize that that is what he is risking - losing you completely - nothing is going to change.

Go get The Dance of Anger and read it first. It's a small book, you can read it in a day. And follow it.

I have not read the book myself, but two others are suggesting the book- I would log off this computer get it and read it- maybe a couple times.... try this link http://www.harrietlerner.com/pages/excerpts/DoA_Excerpts.html it is an excerpt from the book... I am going to go get the book based on this passage...

Catperson is correct about the boundaries... that is exactly what I was trying to tell you earlier.... only catperson did it in fewer words ...



This is VERY true... and that is why I suggested you approach him/ the situation from a different perspective...make deposits... he comes home right?- well that is where the work begins... stop asking for dates... they say 10 touches a day... start with that... sit next to him and watch tv- hold his hand- rub his feet or his shoulders... put love notes in his car... let him know you appreciate him...

You know whatever you try will take time... it is not an overnight process... it has taken a while for this wall to be built... it will take time for it to come down...

about the XSIL... IMO you need to STOP contact... not to a minimum... maybe that is the issue...

about the MIL... I don't believe I said ignore her... but by making a statement like "I hate to hear that" then say nothing else, just that. you are not feeding into the situation.. only I hate to hear that... if you need excuse yourself to go to the bathroom or take care of the kids...

here is what I see in a nutshell: there is a lot of unresolved anger and your H is stuck in the middle... you need to figure out a way to unstick things... change the steps of your dance...

are you willing... you are in a marital war... go get the book... we can talk about the book if you want... okay

but for now... take a breath

did you apologize to you H for the ultimatum you have given him?

that is a big step... look on Dr. Chapmans web page for ways to apologize...he has his way of needing to hear it...

what have you done since we started talking last night??? you have to chip away the wall that is up, one brick at a time...

havingfaith

havingfaith,

I did apologize. I both apologized in person as soon as I woke up yesterday morning, and I wrote him a long letter explaining everything, that started and ended with the apology. I explained that I am sorry that he is stuck in the middle of all of this. I explained that I don't want to compete with her. He had absolutely nothing to say in response. When I told him in person, he left. He went (surprise) to his mother's house. And that is where he has been ever since. He said he is not coming home anymore. He said that, as far as he cares and is concerned, we are through. He doesn't want to try anymore, because trying involves disagreements and compromise, and he doesn't want to argue anymore.

And I understand that. I am exhausted from the fighting. That is why I came here, to get a fresh look an opinion about things. We both keep getting advice from friends and family. But obviously, they will tend to lean one way or another, based on who they are closer to, him or me.

I have completely stopped talking to my STBXSIL. Haven't made contact in almost two weeks, and have not replied to her attempts. Nothing changed.

Since last night, I have basically tried to bribe my husband into at least coming home, if nothing else. I hate to use that word, but that is essentially what I have resorted to. I have been slow to speak, choosing my words carefully. I have been following the old saying "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say nothin' at all." I have tried offering a date or dinner here or whatever.. And he is refusing. He says it's over. We're done. But there was never anytime for him to rationally decide this, unless he has been wanting this for some time now and was just waiting for the right opportunity to justify it???

So what do I do there? If he's moving on, preparing for a D, do I honor his wish? Do I sign the papers? I don't want to. I don't want a divorce. But how do I fix a two-person thing by myself?

I am going tomorrow to buy the book. I looked up some excerpts and reviews of it online, as well. I figure either way, it can't hurt, right?

I bought The Dance of Anger when Catperson recommended it to another poster. I am so glad that she mentioned it, because it is one of the best books I have ever read. If you apply it, it won't hurt at all... only help.

Right now, his connection to his mother is stronger than his to you. He knows what he'll get from her, but what he's gotten from you has changed, once his mother got in the mix. Just keep doing a Plan A. He'll get over this, if you just stay calm and learn how to deal with her. Give him a reason to continue.

Have you read about Love Busters and Emotional Needs?

catperson,

Everything changed tonight. He decided that he is done. He left and says he is filing for divorce tomorrw. Rather, his mother is going to do it for him. Just like his brother just did. When his brother served his STBX, it was because their mother convinced him that, if he wanted custody of his daughter, he had better hurry up and file for divorce and temporary custody. But he said that he didn't have the money for that. So she did it for him. That same day.

I have a very strong feeling that she will do the exact same thing with me now. I don't understand why I am dealing with her instead of my husband. I honestly feel that if he would just come home, everything would be different.

I have gotten so much good advice, between books and webpages and everyone here. But I have not been able to follow through with any of it, because he won't talk to me. He won't answer my calls. He won't come home. Like I said before, I really feel like my MIL is the OW. It's disgusting.

So that being said, do I pursue all advice and knowledge I have gained over the last few days, or am I better off picking up what is left of me and giving him the divorce he claims he wants??

I don't want it. I asked him today (when he only answered because our son wanted to talk to him) if he even knows why we are fighting. He said no. He could not think of one single thing that we are fighting about. All he knows is that we are fighting. And that's that.

How can someone want a divorce and not even know why??

Today I have been as rational and sincere and sweet as I have ever been. Even though he is not here, I did all of his laundry, made his lunch for all the days at work this week, cleaned all of his fishing gear from this past week, and bought him a card and small gift. I know he witnessed all of these things because when I was at my sister's house today, he came by to get clothes for the week. (He is staying at his mother's, but everything is still at home.) He called me and yelled at me for doing all of these things. He said it's just a waste of my time, and that I'm just trying to make him feel guilty.

I tried to explain to him that I am trying to work on our marriage, by fixing some of the things that I do wrong, too. He just keeps telling me that it's too late and that it's obnoxious.

Should I keep doing the things I am doing, in my subtle effort to prove to him that the love is there? Or, in doing so, am I just going to be adding fuel to the fire, since he thinks it is all just obnoxious and a game?

Honestly, if I were you, I would thank my stars I found out now, and get out now. Someone who's been raised with a mother like that is almost NEVER going to change. If you fight for him, you are in for a lifetime of heartache and being placed second in his heart. Trust me. I know. She has a pull on him that no woman is going to be able to sever.

The truth is, the ONLY way he might EVER see the truth and grow a backbone is if you DO walk away, and let him see what he's losing.

catperson,

That is exactly what I am afraid of. Especially since his brother and his (failed) marriage are almost a mirror to my life today.

(((Kdew)))

I am sorry he has made this choice. Honestly, there maybe nothing that you can do to salvage the relationship. I do think it would be easier if his mother was not around...but she is not... you have a child with this man and it seems she will always play a part in your life in some manner- so I'd still get the book.

My advice, when you see you H do not talk about the relationship or the MIL. Keep it to pleasant topics. I think this will help regardless of the outcome of the marriage... I mean you do want it to be positive for your child's sake...right?

So what do you other posters think, if she wants to work on the marriage should she move to a Plan B- let him know what life will be like without her? I have never done a plan B, but it would seem this would also serve to protect herself emotionally. Anyone??

havingfaith

Plan B wouldn't do anything, IMO, but Plan Separate might. Show him what YOUR life looks like - the one that you would be carrying on with HIS child, but without the MIL's influence. If he sees the two of you flourishing and loving it, he may start to see what he's giving up.

So.. Ironically, without reading any of this, your advice was exactly what happened.

He (for unknown reasons, I didn't ask fr explanations) came home last night. It was hard for me. I tried to just act like it was any other day. I didn't ask where he had been. I didn't bring up his mother at all. He didn't get home until almost 11p last night, but I was up. I haven't been sleeping much at all lately anyway. He came in and took a shower and put on pajamas, and came to bed, like the last two weeks haven't happened. I just asked him about his day. He proceeded to tell me a lot of the things he has done over the course of the last few days - all of which involved either his (soon to be divorced) brother and/or his mother. He kept telling me about all of the things they have done, all of which also involved our neice, who is 14 days younger than our oldest son. Hearing him spending all of this "quality time" with her instead of OUR son enfuriated me. But I didn't say anything. Eventually, after about 30 minutes of small talk, and apparently one too many references to my neice and how much fun he had with her, I just couldn't hold back anymore. I had to walk away. I never said anything to him about it. I just started sobbing and couldn't stop. How can he spend all this time with his "other family" when he hasn't seen his own children in almost a week?? It's like we've been replaced.

Ugh. I am trying soo hard to continue on my quest with The Love Dare. I think that is probably the only thing that kept me from completely losing it when something he says sets me off. I am trying to practice the first "dare", Love Is Patient.

He says he is coming home again tonight, after work of course. I guess we shall see how it goes. I am hoping that we can at least get to where we are both able to talk rather than argue before I try to discuss anything. That way we stand a better chance of rational conversation.

As for trial separation - I just don't know where I could go. I definitely cannot afford to go somewhere else on my own, especially in today's economy. And all of the other places that used to be my "go" places are no longer accessible, for one reason or another. So I don't know how that is really even an option. Somedays I wish it were.

I bought Dance Of Anger today. I haven't had a chance to read more than the back yet. Hopefully once the kids go to sleep I will. That is, if I can stay awake. I have been so tired.

Keep you posted.

ANY advice is still VERY welcome.

One, be completely honest with him. That's what marriage should be.

Two, check back with us after you Read Dance of Anger!

you did good... I know it is hard to see him spend so much time with his brother... his brother is going through a rough time... do you admire you H at all for the help he is giving him... do you see him being a good brother... think of it... most men like to be admired... if you can think of one admirable quality - tell him...

I admire that you are there for your brother... you are being a great support... don't add the but your missing out on us... he knows this- he doesnt need you telling him right now.... maybe something like- hon I sure have missed hanging out with you and having fun... and leave it at that

read up on love busters and emotional needs from this web site.. right now- no more love busters and fill those emotional needs...

as you chip away the wall with deposits he may come around...

i will go get the book tomorrow... we can be reading buddies- okay?!?

havingfaith

Today was actually a decent day.

By time we both got home from work, we were beyond exhausted. I had a really tough day at work, and have been in a lot of pain today because of something I did at work. He has been SuperDad tonight, out of nowhere. He knew that I wouldn't be up to cooking dinner because of my injury and my exhaustion, so he decided that we go out to dinner as a family. First time for that in a while. He got the kids ready. All by himself. Without me asking. Wow. Even the baby. And then at dinner, he was doing everything - fed the baby so I could eat my meal warm (also very rare, even when we ARE getting along), volunteered to taking our 2 year old when he needed to go potty, got up and got me anything I needed.. All the things I wish he'd do everyday.

So that part of the day was wonderful.

However, still nothing is there as far as "us". Any attempt at speech other than about his day or the kids was brushed aside. No hand holding, hugs, affection of any kind. It's hard.

But I guess we are moving forward.. I hope.

Dance Of Anger will be read tomorrow, after work. With me getting hurt today, I just don't think I have the energy to stay up tonight and read it.

I'll keep you posted.

remember you didn't get in this position over night...it will take time...tonight thank him for all his work... he really deserves to know what he did was a BIG help and how much you appreciate him- for what he is doing... look at actions- girl that means alot...

thank him... avoid relationship talk... improve yourself... avoid MIL talk... keep reading this site- you know those little links to the right- VERY helpful stuff over there...

my fwh worked most of this program not even realizing what he was doing... the ball is in your court... focus on the happy night you had... don't let your mind loom about the in-laws... don't let him see you cry - for now those tears are taken as withdraws... appreciate him (verbally) for everything he did tonight- that will get you more... give him a nice smooch before bed:)

remember... if you do happen to slip and fall into the relationship talk- use "I" statements- I need, I feel, not you did this and it made me feel like the other family- "I miss you."

lets read the book and figure out our anger with in-laws at the same time okay

cat, what do you consider to be the difference between plan B and plan separation? I always thought they were the same thing.

KDew, why would you have to go anywhere if you decided to separate from him? He has already indicated that he is content at mom's house, so you and the kids stay put if a separation occurs... whether it is you or him that requests it.

I'm with cat, I would love to hear your impression of the book and I am glad you picked it up.

Exodus, I would imagine that Plan Separation is you telling your spouse you are separating, and going through the process out in the open. If the spouse has a problem with it...talk to your lawyer, not the IM.

Thanks for explaining, cat.

Hey- how ya doing? what's going on- everything okay???

ok I got the book... and read chapter 1...what about you... okay I would have to say that I am more of the "nice lady"... what about y'all?


I do agree with the questioning of our anger itself... what am I really angry about?... I use this alot now- after D-day...even with my teen son... he will blow up and I stop him and ask- tell me what is it that youre really mad about- that I said this to you or is there something else going on I don't get?... this works

I also liked the part that talked about how we are left feeling helpless and powerless... we don't feel in control of the quality and direction of our lives (that is where a lot of my anger roots- the quality of my relationships)... our sense and dignity and self-esteem suffers because we have not effectively clarified and addressed the real issues... and nothing changes

I see this to be so true....

what are your thoughts???
havingfaith

First, let me just say that I give you huge props for even wanting to try to work this out.

Second, and please realize this is only my opinion but I do think it would be best for you to be aware of this, I would be very suspicious of your H right now. His mother will not be happy until you are gone from his life and she, yes she, has as much control over her grandkids as she can get. He has already stated that you guys are done. He has been staying at his mother's. His mother is willing to, and probably already has, pay for his lawyer.

So why is he home now and taking care of the kids? I would seriously consider that he is home because he does not want you to charge him with abandonment. And, he is helping with the kids so that he can present to the judge what an involved father he is to boost his (full)custody case.

I have a feeling you are going to find yourself in your stbxsil shoe's real soon.

I'm thinking the only way to save the marriage long term is to move FAR AWAY from the MIL.

Sorry to be so pessimistic.

So to reply to everyone...

havingfaith::

I did buy the book. But then my three year old decided he wanted to turn it into art work while my husband was watching them the other night. So I have to buy a new one. So I'll get back to you on everything there. I am really anxious to read it though, just from what I have read online and from you and catperson.

rubydoo::

I hate to say it, but I have had my suspicions, too. Mainly just because his mother has always had alterior motives behind things. And, as of lately, she has had so much bribery and control over my husband, and all of the stunts she has pulled with my STBXSIL and BIL's divorce and custody, I wouldn't put anything past her these days. I am trying really hard to not think about this, because I want to believe that things are getting better. I don't want to be one of those people who get completely fooled, crying "Well, all the signs were there. But I guess hindsight is 20/20." I keep going back and forth between optimist and pessimist.

And believer::

I have pondered this approach many, many, MANY times. Believe me. I think our BIGGEST problem is that, more often than not, my husband tries to avoid the conflict rather than dealing with it, so he goes straight to Mommy's house until I cave. And I hate that he has that control over me. But I don't want to get a divorce just because I am stubborn. I realize that a marriage is supposed to be 100%, all the time. So, I agree that moving away would alleviate that option. Problem is two things. Number one, all of my family lives here, too. My parents, my siblings, my nephews, my friends. I have lived here my entire life. I don't want to punish my family because my in-laws tend to be a little nutso at times. Number two, what if I go through all of that, and get up and move, and he just finds a new friend to use as his "go-to" house when we fight? Yes, it won't be MIL, but it will have the same effect, yeah?



I don't know. Things seem to be improving, but nothing is being addressed. No apologies have been made on his part, even though multiple have been on my part. They were sincere, and I was hoping that my apologies might open the doors to his. I was wrong. Slowly resentment is building, on my part, because I feel like I am giving and giving, and pretty soon, if I don't get something, anything, in return, there is going to be nothing left of me to give. Am I wrong for feeling this way?

I have been reluctant to discuss this with anyone close to me, because I fear that THEY will hold grudges against my husband, if and when we reconcile. Plus, a large majority of my friends happen to be male, just because of how I grew up, and I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression. I don't want my husband to see it as me talking to another guy, and I don't want any of my male friends to see me as vulnerable. So I am trying to avoid those situations altogether.

Oh. And once last thing.. I was told last night, via my husband, that I am "allowed" at my MIL's house, but with strict rules.
1. I am only to go if it is to pick up or drop of my kids.
2. I am not allowed inside. The porch will do just fine for the exchange.
3. I have to give her "well advance notice" so she can "prepare for" my coming.

Sounds inviting, huh?

If you're that stubborn, why don't you follow our advice and wage a war to win your husband away from his mother? You'd get a lot of exercise flexing those stubborn muscles, and you might even rescue him from her.

AS for her rules? If I were you I would REFUSE to ever darken her yard or driveway again. Make his life hell for working exchanges and not standing up to her.

Hey- no problem about the book... let me know when you are ready and we can read it together... no pressure... okay..


hmmm... those new rules... what brought them on... did your H have something to do with it??... I guess if he did, one could look at that as a tiny step in the right direction...

However...I agree with catperson....I would not go over to MIL doorstep under those rules... I would continue to be as sweet as honey to her and about her... maybe just tell you H how you feel about the rules... I don't feel comfortable with those rules, for now I need you to do the transporting of the kids to and from... or if she would like to visit with them, she is more than welcome to come hang out here in our home... maybe then suggest a nice family dinner- at your place.... let her come over and see how wonderful you are with H and kids...

try not to let her get under your skin... remember this is an issue she has... I see it as a her pattern... it doesn't seem to be anything you have done (as far as I have read) it's like you simply breath air ... I too am part of that little world- see I breath air... therefore I irritate my in-laws (their words)... DEEP BREATH I just irritated them!!

How is you H responding to the deposits in his account?... are you being careful to put deposits in and not LB him... have you read about LB... have you identified yours... funny the ones I thought were an issue my fwh did not... is he open to discussing this with you... something like I'd like us each to complete these... then take only 15 min. to talk about it... explain you want to understand how you can be a better spouse to him... try some ground rules- no yelling, no crying, no leaving the house if mad (if he needs a safe zone- offer it up- the bedroom for 2 hours- whatever but no leaving)- whatever yall come up with...you must abide by the rules- this encourages further participation in such exercises....

Let us know what you plan to do... you know we are all here... you can use us as a sounding board before you do/say anything to you h.... remember slow to listen and slow to speak... this has been golden for me...

havingfaith

Kdew-

hey- how's it going? hope your still reading...

I wanted to post to you because I thought of you when reading chapter 3 of "The Anger Dance"...

this section also hit home with me... it went something like this... if we, the overfunctioning spouse, do all the worrying, nagging, complaining, feeling of the emotions for our spouse, the underfunctioning... then they don't have to...

the example they provided talked about a situation where the wife was upset at the behavior of her in-laws... she complained to her spouse... who- guess what- defended his parents... once she decided to confront them- in a nice, respectful manner- and then backed off... guess what he no longer defended his parents... he became angry at them for some past unresolved issues- which were also bleeding into his life with his spouse and kids...

once the wife stopped "feeling" for her husband he then was able to stop defending and feel pain for their actions....

it was an interesting thought....if the book was written by a man I'd think it was a ploy to get us women to stop nagging ...

very interesting... well this is my new experiment... I personally have told my fwh a dozen times the things his family does that is mean, hurtful and rude... and yes, he defends them... so no more... I will complain to a friend not to him... and I'll let you know if he is ever able to see what they are doing....

I really hope all is well with you
havingfaith

havingfaith,

Sorry for not responding at all over the last few days. For some reason I have not been able to log in to the site at all for almost a week now. It kept telling me that only administrators were allowed access.. Hmm..

Anyways. So, I still haven't had a chance to get an un-decorated copy of Dance of Anger yet. My littlest has been sick, so I haven't gone too far from home. I have still been reading my other two books I have and doing some Internet research on stuff.. But now that I've just read your Ch 3 summary, I am really anxious to go get it tonight. Maybe when my husband gets home, he can watch the kids for a bit.

So what you said at the beginning there was right on what I've been thinking -- I have realized that if I complain about how my husband does (or doesn't do) something, I think he has caught on that, often times, I won't ask him to do that thing again. I think he is taking advantage of that. He plays "dumb" about a lot of things so that he doesn't have to do them. And I do it, thinking that "Well, someone's gotta do it". When I look at it, he gets away with being lazy a lot of the time because of this mentality -- he knows that I'll do it if he won't. How do I get past this? I can't let everything go undone.. Paying the bills, taking care of the kids, chores around the house.. But he won't just do them without being asked or told or whatever to do them.. How does anything get accomplished without "nagging" him or me doing all of it myself?


And the part about defending the in-laws.. I haven't mentioned anything about my MIL to him in almost two weeks. I have realized that it just causes arguments and that I'm just plain sick of arguing.. But, here's my question: in the book, did she confront her in-laws herself? That's what it seems like you were saying, but then you said that she talked with her friend about it? I'm confused. I guess I'll have to read the book..



And another thing, to anyone:::

How do I continue trying to be all that I can be as a wife and as a mother, while getting nothing in return. And I mean NOTHING. My husband still acts as if we are nothing -- just two people who happen to reside in the same building. No affection. No small talk. The only thing we discuss is who works when, how the kids are, bills, etc. Nothing to do with us. Meanwhile, I am doing all I can -- giving in to just about everything he asks. Doing all the kids' stuff. Keeping everything around the house in order. Leaving him little ILY notes everywhere. Doing random acts of kindness. Showing him I care.. But I get nothing in return. I feel like I am giving and giving.. But since I'm getting nothing in return, much less any appreciation for what I am giving, I feel like there is next to nothing left in me. I realize a marriage isn't 50/50 but rather 100% both ways.. But I am getting about 2% return on my investment here.. I feel like it's a lost cause some days.. How do I keep a positive outlook on things??

So it feels like every step we take forward, there are 12 steps back. Every time anything gets accomplished, all of these new problems arise.

And I have discovered a bunch of new not-so-good things..

I've mentioned before how my H has been spending so much time with his newly divorced brother. And how I thought it was just him being there for support. But I also mentioned how it made me nervous because of how my H viewed his brother's newfound "freedom". Well, in the weeks following his brother's separation and now divorce, my H started going out to bars, he has gotten really secretive when he is on the phone or texting someone. He used to just have conversations in the same room. If he got a text message and I was near his phone, he would just ask me to read it to him. Well, now he never lets his phone leave his pocket. He goes in the other room any time he is on the phone. And something else -- I found out he has a secret email account that I didn't know about. He left it up on the computer screen the other day and I guess didn't realize I was behind him. Well, I figured out the password and in the Inbox were a bunch of spam from singles websites and porn websites. I don't know if it was strictly spam, or if he has signed up for these sites. I don't know how that all works. I have never been to either. I feel absolutely awful that I am 'snooping around', but if this is what I find when I do, what else is he hiding from me? There are also other things. He has all of the sudden started smoking. He knows that I am HIGHLY allergic to cigarettes and how I feel about them. Ugh. I just don't know. I came to this website as a person just in a broken marriage, not related to infedelity. But now I think that is where I have found myself. He says there is no one else, but doesn't everyone deny it when first caught? I just don't know what to do. Am I just being paranoid and making assumptions? Could there really be rational explanations for all of it? Or am I just being naive by thinking that he really is faithful? I knew our marriage wasn't on the best of terms, but I didn't think it was to this point. I feel like everything I am doing is just pointless now.

Ask the mods to move your thread over to General Questions or Just Found Out in Infidelity; you'll get the help you need there. Basically, now you HAVE to snoop. You are entitled. If he's doing nothing wrong, he'll get over it. If he's messing on you, you have to find out before you can do anything about it.

Go online and look up keyloggers. It's a program you'll download onto his computer so you can see what he's typing, who he's talking to, etc. They're not that expensive.

Do you have a friend who will go to the bar for you and see what he does?

I don't know. He knows pretty much all of my friends. I can't think of anyone who he wouldn't recognize. I tried to discuss the stuff on the computer with him, but all he does is deny and get angry. I don't know if he is responding that way because there is nothing to hide and he feels disrespected, or if it is because there is a ton to hide and he knows that getting pissed off and pushing me away will keep him from having to come to terms with it all. Or so he thinks. The part that angers me the most is that he does this with the kids home. What have they seen? Heard? I am so furious. I am sick to my stomach over it all. I don't know if I can confront everything rationally. Any ideas?

Like I said, get the keylogger installed on his computer (he won't be able to see it). Put a voice-activated recorder under the seat of his car to see who he talks to. Gather your evidence (or lack of) and THEN decide what to do. Can't make any decisions right now without knowing.

SO I RESTARTED IN JUST FOUND OUT.

Titled "So he didn't exactly cheat, but it hurt even worse".

I figured I'd take catperson's advice. Hopefully something will come of it all.

KDew: I've only gotten a few pages into this thread. But I agree with Cat and others who tell you to be thankful you found out now. I have a friend (on her second marriage) who divorced her first husband. She also had MIL issues. The straw that broke the camel's back for her was when the MC counselor asked her H--if he were on a sinking boat with his wife and mother, who would he save first. And he hesitated and then said--his mother. He probably only hesitated because he knew how weird that sounded but my friend got the message loud and clear. Mommy is, was and always would be, #1.

BTW, the guy has been remarried and divorced 2 more times.