So.. Ironically, without reading any of this, your advice was exactly what happened.

He (for unknown reasons, I didn't ask fr explanations) came home last night. It was hard for me. I tried to just act like it was any other day. I didn't ask where he had been. I didn't bring up his mother at all. He didn't get home until almost 11p last night, but I was up. I haven't been sleeping much at all lately anyway. He came in and took a shower and put on pajamas, and came to bed, like the last two weeks haven't happened. I just asked him about his day. He proceeded to tell me a lot of the things he has done over the course of the last few days - all of which involved either his (soon to be divorced) brother and/or his mother. He kept telling me about all of the things they have done, all of which also involved our neice, who is 14 days younger than our oldest son. Hearing him spending all of this "quality time" with her instead of OUR son enfuriated me. But I didn't say anything. Eventually, after about 30 minutes of small talk, and apparently one too many references to my neice and how much fun he had with her, I just couldn't hold back anymore. I had to walk away. I never said anything to him about it. I just started sobbing and couldn't stop. How can he spend all this time with his "other family" when he hasn't seen his own children in almost a week?? It's like we've been replaced.

Ugh. I am trying soo hard to continue on my quest with The Love Dare. I think that is probably the only thing that kept me from completely losing it when something he says sets me off. I am trying to practice the first "dare", Love Is Patient.

He says he is coming home again tonight, after work of course. I guess we shall see how it goes. I am hoping that we can at least get to where we are both able to talk rather than argue before I try to discuss anything. That way we stand a better chance of rational conversation.

As for trial separation - I just don't know where I could go. I definitely cannot afford to go somewhere else on my own, especially in today's economy. And all of the other places that used to be my "go" places are no longer accessible, for one reason or another. So I don't know how that is really even an option. Somedays I wish it were.

I bought Dance Of Anger today. I haven't had a chance to read more than the back yet. Hopefully once the kids go to sleep I will. That is, if I can stay awake. I have been so tired.

Keep you posted.

ANY advice is still VERY welcome.

One, be completely honest with him. That's what marriage should be.

Two, check back with us after you Read Dance of Anger!

you did good... I know it is hard to see him spend so much time with his brother... his brother is going through a rough time... do you admire you H at all for the help he is giving him... do you see him being a good brother... think of it... most men like to be admired... if you can think of one admirable quality - tell him...

I admire that you are there for your brother... you are being a great support... don't add the but your missing out on us... he knows this- he doesnt need you telling him right now.... maybe something like- hon I sure have missed hanging out with you and having fun... and leave it at that

read up on love busters and emotional needs from this web site.. right now- no more love busters and fill those emotional needs...

as you chip away the wall with deposits he may come around...

i will go get the book tomorrow... we can be reading buddies- okay?!?

havingfaith

Today was actually a decent day.

By time we both got home from work, we were beyond exhausted. I had a really tough day at work, and have been in a lot of pain today because of something I did at work. He has been SuperDad tonight, out of nowhere. He knew that I wouldn't be up to cooking dinner because of my injury and my exhaustion, so he decided that we go out to dinner as a family. First time for that in a while. He got the kids ready. All by himself. Without me asking. Wow. Even the baby. And then at dinner, he was doing everything - fed the baby so I could eat my meal warm (also very rare, even when we ARE getting along), volunteered to taking our 2 year old when he needed to go potty, got up and got me anything I needed.. All the things I wish he'd do everyday.

So that part of the day was wonderful.

However, still nothing is there as far as "us". Any attempt at speech other than about his day or the kids was brushed aside. No hand holding, hugs, affection of any kind. It's hard.

But I guess we are moving forward.. I hope.

Dance Of Anger will be read tomorrow, after work. With me getting hurt today, I just don't think I have the energy to stay up tonight and read it.

I'll keep you posted.

remember you didn't get in this position over night...it will take time...tonight thank him for all his work... he really deserves to know what he did was a BIG help and how much you appreciate him- for what he is doing... look at actions- girl that means alot...

thank him... avoid relationship talk... improve yourself... avoid MIL talk... keep reading this site- you know those little links to the right- VERY helpful stuff over there...

my fwh worked most of this program not even realizing what he was doing... the ball is in your court... focus on the happy night you had... don't let your mind loom about the in-laws... don't let him see you cry - for now those tears are taken as withdraws... appreciate him (verbally) for everything he did tonight- that will get you more... give him a nice smooch before bed:)

remember... if you do happen to slip and fall into the relationship talk- use "I" statements- I need, I feel, not you did this and it made me feel like the other family- "I miss you."

lets read the book and figure out our anger with in-laws at the same time okay

cat, what do you consider to be the difference between plan B and plan separation? I always thought they were the same thing.

KDew, why would you have to go anywhere if you decided to separate from him? He has already indicated that he is content at mom's house, so you and the kids stay put if a separation occurs... whether it is you or him that requests it.

I'm with cat, I would love to hear your impression of the book and I am glad you picked it up.

Exodus, I would imagine that Plan Separation is you telling your spouse you are separating, and going through the process out in the open. If the spouse has a problem with it...talk to your lawyer, not the IM.

Thanks for explaining, cat.

Hey- how ya doing? what's going on- everything okay???

ok I got the book... and read chapter 1...what about you... okay I would have to say that I am more of the "nice lady"... what about y'all?


I do agree with the questioning of our anger itself... what am I really angry about?... I use this alot now- after D-day...even with my teen son... he will blow up and I stop him and ask- tell me what is it that youre really mad about- that I said this to you or is there something else going on I don't get?... this works

I also liked the part that talked about how we are left feeling helpless and powerless... we don't feel in control of the quality and direction of our lives (that is where a lot of my anger roots- the quality of my relationships)... our sense and dignity and self-esteem suffers because we have not effectively clarified and addressed the real issues... and nothing changes

I see this to be so true....

what are your thoughts???
havingfaith

First, let me just say that I give you huge props for even wanting to try to work this out.

Second, and please realize this is only my opinion but I do think it would be best for you to be aware of this, I would be very suspicious of your H right now. His mother will not be happy until you are gone from his life and she, yes she, has as much control over her grandkids as she can get. He has already stated that you guys are done. He has been staying at his mother's. His mother is willing to, and probably already has, pay for his lawyer.

So why is he home now and taking care of the kids? I would seriously consider that he is home because he does not want you to charge him with abandonment. And, he is helping with the kids so that he can present to the judge what an involved father he is to boost his (full)custody case.

I have a feeling you are going to find yourself in your stbxsil shoe's real soon.

I'm thinking the only way to save the marriage long term is to move FAR AWAY from the MIL.

Sorry to be so pessimistic.

So to reply to everyone...

havingfaith::

I did buy the book. But then my three year old decided he wanted to turn it into art work while my husband was watching them the other night. So I have to buy a new one. So I'll get back to you on everything there. I am really anxious to read it though, just from what I have read online and from you and catperson.

rubydoo::

I hate to say it, but I have had my suspicions, too. Mainly just because his mother has always had alterior motives behind things. And, as of lately, she has had so much bribery and control over my husband, and all of the stunts she has pulled with my STBXSIL and BIL's divorce and custody, I wouldn't put anything past her these days. I am trying really hard to not think about this, because I want to believe that things are getting better. I don't want to be one of those people who get completely fooled, crying "Well, all the signs were there. But I guess hindsight is 20/20." I keep going back and forth between optimist and pessimist.

And believer::

I have pondered this approach many, many, MANY times. Believe me. I think our BIGGEST problem is that, more often than not, my husband tries to avoid the conflict rather than dealing with it, so he goes straight to Mommy's house until I cave. And I hate that he has that control over me. But I don't want to get a divorce just because I am stubborn. I realize that a marriage is supposed to be 100%, all the time. So, I agree that moving away would alleviate that option. Problem is two things. Number one, all of my family lives here, too. My parents, my siblings, my nephews, my friends. I have lived here my entire life. I don't want to punish my family because my in-laws tend to be a little nutso at times. Number two, what if I go through all of that, and get up and move, and he just finds a new friend to use as his "go-to" house when we fight? Yes, it won't be MIL, but it will have the same effect, yeah?



I don't know. Things seem to be improving, but nothing is being addressed. No apologies have been made on his part, even though multiple have been on my part. They were sincere, and I was hoping that my apologies might open the doors to his. I was wrong. Slowly resentment is building, on my part, because I feel like I am giving and giving, and pretty soon, if I don't get something, anything, in return, there is going to be nothing left of me to give. Am I wrong for feeling this way?

I have been reluctant to discuss this with anyone close to me, because I fear that THEY will hold grudges against my husband, if and when we reconcile. Plus, a large majority of my friends happen to be male, just because of how I grew up, and I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression. I don't want my husband to see it as me talking to another guy, and I don't want any of my male friends to see me as vulnerable. So I am trying to avoid those situations altogether.

Oh. And once last thing.. I was told last night, via my husband, that I am "allowed" at my MIL's house, but with strict rules.
1. I am only to go if it is to pick up or drop of my kids.
2. I am not allowed inside. The porch will do just fine for the exchange.
3. I have to give her "well advance notice" so she can "prepare for" my coming.

Sounds inviting, huh?

If you're that stubborn, why don't you follow our advice and wage a war to win your husband away from his mother? You'd get a lot of exercise flexing those stubborn muscles, and you might even rescue him from her.

AS for her rules? If I were you I would REFUSE to ever darken her yard or driveway again. Make his life hell for working exchanges and not standing up to her.

Hey- no problem about the book... let me know when you are ready and we can read it together... no pressure... okay..


hmmm... those new rules... what brought them on... did your H have something to do with it??... I guess if he did, one could look at that as a tiny step in the right direction...

However...I agree with catperson....I would not go over to MIL doorstep under those rules... I would continue to be as sweet as honey to her and about her... maybe just tell you H how you feel about the rules... I don't feel comfortable with those rules, for now I need you to do the transporting of the kids to and from... or if she would like to visit with them, she is more than welcome to come hang out here in our home... maybe then suggest a nice family dinner- at your place.... let her come over and see how wonderful you are with H and kids...

try not to let her get under your skin... remember this is an issue she has... I see it as a her pattern... it doesn't seem to be anything you have done (as far as I have read) it's like you simply breath air ... I too am part of that little world- see I breath air... therefore I irritate my in-laws (their words)... DEEP BREATH I just irritated them!!

How is you H responding to the deposits in his account?... are you being careful to put deposits in and not LB him... have you read about LB... have you identified yours... funny the ones I thought were an issue my fwh did not... is he open to discussing this with you... something like I'd like us each to complete these... then take only 15 min. to talk about it... explain you want to understand how you can be a better spouse to him... try some ground rules- no yelling, no crying, no leaving the house if mad (if he needs a safe zone- offer it up- the bedroom for 2 hours- whatever but no leaving)- whatever yall come up with...you must abide by the rules- this encourages further participation in such exercises....

Let us know what you plan to do... you know we are all here... you can use us as a sounding board before you do/say anything to you h.... remember slow to listen and slow to speak... this has been golden for me...

havingfaith

Kdew-

hey- how's it going? hope your still reading...

I wanted to post to you because I thought of you when reading chapter 3 of "The Anger Dance"...

this section also hit home with me... it went something like this... if we, the overfunctioning spouse, do all the worrying, nagging, complaining, feeling of the emotions for our spouse, the underfunctioning... then they don't have to...

the example they provided talked about a situation where the wife was upset at the behavior of her in-laws... she complained to her spouse... who- guess what- defended his parents... once she decided to confront them- in a nice, respectful manner- and then backed off... guess what he no longer defended his parents... he became angry at them for some past unresolved issues- which were also bleeding into his life with his spouse and kids...

once the wife stopped "feeling" for her husband he then was able to stop defending and feel pain for their actions....

it was an interesting thought....if the book was written by a man I'd think it was a ploy to get us women to stop nagging ...

very interesting... well this is my new experiment... I personally have told my fwh a dozen times the things his family does that is mean, hurtful and rude... and yes, he defends them... so no more... I will complain to a friend not to him... and I'll let you know if he is ever able to see what they are doing....

I really hope all is well with you
havingfaith

havingfaith,

Sorry for not responding at all over the last few days. For some reason I have not been able to log in to the site at all for almost a week now. It kept telling me that only administrators were allowed access.. Hmm..

Anyways. So, I still haven't had a chance to get an un-decorated copy of Dance of Anger yet. My littlest has been sick, so I haven't gone too far from home. I have still been reading my other two books I have and doing some Internet research on stuff.. But now that I've just read your Ch 3 summary, I am really anxious to go get it tonight. Maybe when my husband gets home, he can watch the kids for a bit.

So what you said at the beginning there was right on what I've been thinking -- I have realized that if I complain about how my husband does (or doesn't do) something, I think he has caught on that, often times, I won't ask him to do that thing again. I think he is taking advantage of that. He plays "dumb" about a lot of things so that he doesn't have to do them. And I do it, thinking that "Well, someone's gotta do it". When I look at it, he gets away with being lazy a lot of the time because of this mentality -- he knows that I'll do it if he won't. How do I get past this? I can't let everything go undone.. Paying the bills, taking care of the kids, chores around the house.. But he won't just do them without being asked or told or whatever to do them.. How does anything get accomplished without "nagging" him or me doing all of it myself?


And the part about defending the in-laws.. I haven't mentioned anything about my MIL to him in almost two weeks. I have realized that it just causes arguments and that I'm just plain sick of arguing.. But, here's my question: in the book, did she confront her in-laws herself? That's what it seems like you were saying, but then you said that she talked with her friend about it? I'm confused. I guess I'll have to read the book..



And another thing, to anyone:::

How do I continue trying to be all that I can be as a wife and as a mother, while getting nothing in return. And I mean NOTHING. My husband still acts as if we are nothing -- just two people who happen to reside in the same building. No affection. No small talk. The only thing we discuss is who works when, how the kids are, bills, etc. Nothing to do with us. Meanwhile, I am doing all I can -- giving in to just about everything he asks. Doing all the kids' stuff. Keeping everything around the house in order. Leaving him little ILY notes everywhere. Doing random acts of kindness. Showing him I care.. But I get nothing in return. I feel like I am giving and giving.. But since I'm getting nothing in return, much less any appreciation for what I am giving, I feel like there is next to nothing left in me. I realize a marriage isn't 50/50 but rather 100% both ways.. But I am getting about 2% return on my investment here.. I feel like it's a lost cause some days.. How do I keep a positive outlook on things??

So it feels like every step we take forward, there are 12 steps back. Every time anything gets accomplished, all of these new problems arise.

And I have discovered a bunch of new not-so-good things..

I've mentioned before how my H has been spending so much time with his newly divorced brother. And how I thought it was just him being there for support. But I also mentioned how it made me nervous because of how my H viewed his brother's newfound "freedom". Well, in the weeks following his brother's separation and now divorce, my H started going out to bars, he has gotten really secretive when he is on the phone or texting someone. He used to just have conversations in the same room. If he got a text message and I was near his phone, he would just ask me to read it to him. Well, now he never lets his phone leave his pocket. He goes in the other room any time he is on the phone. And something else -- I found out he has a secret email account that I didn't know about. He left it up on the computer screen the other day and I guess didn't realize I was behind him. Well, I figured out the password and in the Inbox were a bunch of spam from singles websites and porn websites. I don't know if it was strictly spam, or if he has signed up for these sites. I don't know how that all works. I have never been to either. I feel absolutely awful that I am 'snooping around', but if this is what I find when I do, what else is he hiding from me? There are also other things. He has all of the sudden started smoking. He knows that I am HIGHLY allergic to cigarettes and how I feel about them. Ugh. I just don't know. I came to this website as a person just in a broken marriage, not related to infedelity. But now I think that is where I have found myself. He says there is no one else, but doesn't everyone deny it when first caught? I just don't know what to do. Am I just being paranoid and making assumptions? Could there really be rational explanations for all of it? Or am I just being naive by thinking that he really is faithful? I knew our marriage wasn't on the best of terms, but I didn't think it was to this point. I feel like everything I am doing is just pointless now.

Ask the mods to move your thread over to General Questions or Just Found Out in Infidelity; you'll get the help you need there. Basically, now you HAVE to snoop. You are entitled. If he's doing nothing wrong, he'll get over it. If he's messing on you, you have to find out before you can do anything about it.

Go online and look up keyloggers. It's a program you'll download onto his computer so you can see what he's typing, who he's talking to, etc. They're not that expensive.

Do you have a friend who will go to the bar for you and see what he does?

I don't know. He knows pretty much all of my friends. I can't think of anyone who he wouldn't recognize. I tried to discuss the stuff on the computer with him, but all he does is deny and get angry. I don't know if he is responding that way because there is nothing to hide and he feels disrespected, or if it is because there is a ton to hide and he knows that getting pissed off and pushing me away will keep him from having to come to terms with it all. Or so he thinks. The part that angers me the most is that he does this with the kids home. What have they seen? Heard? I am so furious. I am sick to my stomach over it all. I don't know if I can confront everything rationally. Any ideas?

Like I said, get the keylogger installed on his computer (he won't be able to see it). Put a voice-activated recorder under the seat of his car to see who he talks to. Gather your evidence (or lack of) and THEN decide what to do. Can't make any decisions right now without knowing.