Honesty is best and her coming here is showing her you are being open and honest. She needs to do the same. Honesty and open communication are very important in beginning to make improvements in your M. You guys have to talk about what's happened. She shouldn't avoid the subject.

"Take Into Account Great Love and Great Achievements Involve Great Risk" (don't know author.)

GG

Absolutely, now that you are reconciled. It would be a great idea. You would be able to show her how you really feel deep down inside. She will also see no holds barred advice. That I think will be convicting to her. And also give her a glimpse that even under the grief she put you through, you still love her. In fact I think she needs to read them.

Thanks Girl & Ouch,
I'd love to have her post on here and actively participate. I really think it would do her some good to be able to communicate with both WS and BS to better understand from others that have been through it. That might be a little ambitious and take some time but hopefully eventually she might be able to come on here. I think we have to be able to talk about it between us first though. Thanks for the encouragement everybody.
Zack

I think perhaps you are the most gullible man in history.


Yes I am too. You are being played, have always been played in your marriage, and you fail to see it.


Yes - why not hand her everything here....

I posted to you right at the beginning of your thread - How about you have a good think about what I said then because you are deluding yourself about your marriage.

Goos Luck - you'll need it.

BigKahuna,
Would you please care to elaborate on how I am gullible and being played...I'd like a realistic perspective but only if you are truly interested in helping me. i can take constructive criticism but I really dont people knocking me right now.

I'd like to give an update on how this thing is going. Today she let me know that she was so angry that she has almost been numb to it. Shes been calm and amicable and somewhat loving but I know she is mad, But so am I. She told me that she never wants to talk about what was said that was her private conversation. Shes furious and feels betrayed but I feel betrayed also. I'm not sure what to do next.

Zack that is the problem SHE doesn't want to talk about her conversations. If your marriage is going to remain together she has to be open and honest with you. She HAS to answer your questions.

Zach,
Read the article on love busters. I think it will give you the right words to speak to your W. You might want to print the article and leave it somewhere where she will see it and hopefully read it.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html

As long as you are both angry it will be hard to have a conversation calmly.

Have you read the other articles here?

Disregarding what's happened, the fact is you are not happy with the relationship (hence, recording your W's conversations). You should make the point to your Wife that you are unhappy with the relationship and want to improve it. You want to request her full commitment to improving the M. You have to request that she shows you she is committed by "action." If you like the MB principles then tell her this is what you want.

GG

Zach, on the offchance you missed this, here is what I asked you earlier.

Your wife does not sound like a FWW she sounds like a WW to me. She certainly is operating out of a wayward mindset.

You think she realises what she is doing to you and cares? I don't. If you think that then yes you are gullible.

So I'll ask again - what did recovery consst of from when she was unfatihful before you married? What did she do other than making a lot of empty promises and tell a lot of lies.

Yes I believe you are being played by her. She's foggy as hell still and looks back on OM with fondness - this is a WW at least in her heart if not in her actions.

Has she always used anger to control you and throw you off balance?

If you accept that from her. Then just give up. She knows exactly what she said. And she also knows how much it hurt you. So she is gonna be real angry and not talk about it. If you do not confront her on it. Then just kiss any openness in your marriage that you have hoped for goodbye. Let me just go over the facts here. 3 years ago she carried on an affair with a guy who has bigger shwantz then you. In fact its big enough that even after almost destroying your marriage, your wife likes to go over those found memories and brag to her friend how he "filled her up". Now after crushing you with that little jewel and uncovering the lie she told you about it. She comes out and says she never wants to talk about it again. Because it was private. What that is called my friend is being cuckolded. You are in fear of confronting her over her infidelity because she may leave you. Unlike Kahuna I do not think you are gullible. I do think that you are fearful over drawing a line with her. I can't tell you what you should do. But I could not look at her for the rest of my life knowing this was between us and unsaid. You do not have to live with that pain. This basically destroys all intimacy in your marriage. My opinion. Find someone who will love you and be true, IN THOUGHT AND DEED.

I have to agree with Ouch and BK. Your wife sounds monstrous-unremorseful, irresponsible, no emapthy and just a self centered child. What is it you like about this woman? Are you afraid of being alone? You can find someone else.

I feel BK & ouch and others assessment of your wife's behaviour is mostly spot on..... I am a FWW myself so I know what it takes to work on recovery and your wife is NOT doing anywhere the best she could do.

I do not though think their conclusions are necessarily the right ones though. Your M may be salvageable if your wife is truly committed to wanting it to and YOU are willing to change from being a .. well to be blunt .. a doormat for her entitlement.

Entitlement is not just a behaviour in adultery you know. I suspect your wife has been the dominant personality in your M and she is still fighting to maintain that position at all costs after the affair. This is not being a wimp by any means its just the dynamics of your M. She sees her position as her 'right' because to acknowledge her failure as a wife and partner will mean she will need to change and it does not appear she wants to. She is comfortable where she is.

Are you being played by her? Probably though not necessarily due to any adultery at this time. I'd say it's more a bit of selfishness. And of course we know where that led to before don't we?

You do seem to show a background fear of her leaving you ... that you want the M at any price. right or wrong it does seem to come across that way. You need her and she is happy to let you feel that way. her Selfishness.

When you question her on any uncomfortable subject... not just this one ... I would hazard a guess her response is one of anger first .. to get you to cut it out and stop ... then probably a bit of the cold shoulder to reinforce her displeasure ... then to ignore the subject raised and a bit later on be sweet and light to 'reward' you for shutting up.

YOU MUST CHANGE or you will always just settle for second best.

I do feel she could change if you were stubborn enough and forceful enough to insist your M needs help not tomorrow or next week but NOW. This is where you can address the issues with disrespect and teh affair honesty etc etc ...

NO "offers" or "suggestions" but a condition to continue the M,,, we go to MB counselling .. a MB weekend ... whatever Dr Haley suggests ..etc to see if you can both change for the better and work on this M .. if she is not willing to do so then you have your answer don't you. Then it comes down to accepting second best or leaving as ouch and BK suggest.

The question only you can answer is are you willing to live like you are for the foreseeable future?

To be absolutely clear I have never suggested he leave.

zack, are you going to continue to let her blackmail and manipulate you for the rest of your life, just so that - this week - she won't get mad enough to leave you?

She is playing you. She knows how desperate you are. She in no way has been honest with you, and when you call her out on it, she goes on the offensive - how dare you, I am SO mad!, I will never talk about it again, and if you dare bring it up, well, buddy, you just kissed your last chance with me goodbye.

Where in all that crap do you hear any semblance of this woman loving you?

You are convenient.

Zach,
I reread your posts here.

1) Your W is an alcoholic
2) She cheated on you before you were married (you stated because of anxiety and she was drunk).
3) She disclosed information about OM when she was drunk with girl friend (also a WW).
4) You got her drunk to get information out of her.

The reality is that unless she addresses the alcoholism you won't be able to get anywhere on M recovery. You have to stop being an enabler to the drinking too.

Read this article, the part about alcoholism and codependency and let us know what you think...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

GG

Zach, whenever I got caught looking at porn, I'd respond with such anger to try and turn it around and make it look like my w was the bad person. It was effective until someone pointed out to her I was "blame shifting".

I figured it i could make my w out to be in the wrong, then I must be right.

I feel your ww is doing the same to you.

Mrs Zack: "Dont make waves Zack or else Im going to be angry and you dont want me to be angry, back down and take it!"

.....when she baits you, dont engage her.

Best of luck preppy.

Hey Zach this really caught my eye. My XW used this same tactic when we were married. When I was upset about something she only did one thing and one thing only... Get madder than me! It worked every time.

Just think every argument or discussion she got to win. I was too afraid of her wrath if I stood up for myself and she caught on very fast how to control things. Your wife did the same thing to you.

You wanted to discuss something and she did not. She turned it around and got angry. Now she does not have to discuss it. And if you try and talk about it she will get angry and tell you that you were wrong.

I guess what I am saying is that she got what she wanted. She does not have to discuss it now because she got mad. So you are back to the same place you were and she won. She gets mad and you are on defense. It really is clever and it works just about every time. It use to work on me until my ex crossed a line and had her affair and I would not take that treatment anymore.

You just have to decide when you will not allow her to do this anymore. Despite her anger it does not change the fact or the details of what she said.

And reading your post above you think maybe she has started to understand she has dealt you a heavy blow but that is not it at all. She got you to stop talking about it and then she was nice to you so you will see it is less painful for you if you do not bring it up. Because if you bring it up again she will get more upset than you and you will quickly decide not to press her on it. Which is exactly what she wanted in the first place.

That's called manipulation. How does it feel to be played? Sorry, not trying to make you feel bad, just to show you how she is thinking. Actually, she may not even be aware she is playing you; she just knows from her FOO that it works.

To address the question of what did she do? She volunteerly confessed, she answered all my questions even details, allowed me access to everything (phones/computers etc) and became transparent. She basically agreed to ALLOW me to snoop, so I could see she wasnt doing anything and it would help me feel better. We even did MC for a while. FAST Forward to now. She says if it was two years ago, OK, or even one year ago maybe, BUT NOW three years later, it was wrong to snoop on her private conversation with her friend who is going through a divorce. She even stated that it wouldn't have been a big deal if I just recorded her talking to her friend on the phone, that way I could only hear her, not her friend. So she is more concerned with my invasion of her friends privacy and how if she found out she would never want to come back over. (perfect for me LOL)

She goes through periods of calm and then extreme anger. It reminds me of what I went through after DDay. She believes that I have betrayed her, and although she hasnt said it directly, i think she prob thinks its as bad as what she did to me.

I know that and the time will come will she will have to face it. She may need to take some time to calm down and reflect, I've learned with her it takes time to sink in.