Sounds to me like you should tell her what she did.

Honestly, I think that one of the best things you can do is to execute the 180. This will give her some space and in some ways make you more attractive to her. You're too available.

A little "indifference" will get you further.

I'd also sit a good friend down and ask him/her how he/she sees your wife and if there's something they see that you don't. You need 100% honesty from them. This helped me because I didn't see some of the things my friends pointed out to me later and that has been seen by others in my situation regarding the constant need for attention by my exww. If the attention isn't there, then it's generated somehow and people like myself (when we were married) and her parents enabled this. Everyone else saw it for what it was and told me later about how "Cry Wolf" syndrome kicked in for those around me.

They were my friends and were supportive, but saw that and didn't say anything at the time or would try to and I wasn't receptive to the feedback.

It sounded like you "rescued" your wife and had the whole "White Knight Syndrome" thing going. Women that don't need rescuing are wonderful. Believe me. It's awesome to be dating someone that doesn't have huge insecurities and doesn't want anything from me other than my company.

Does your wife generate drama? Does she create crisis to get those close to her and around her to "jump"?

I repeated what she said... She woke right up and said, "OMG I'm so sorry, I wasn't awake!" I tried to pull away but she was holding my arm pretty tight. I was trying not to just cry and hyperventilate. She kept saying she was sorry. I asked a few things about the current status of her and OM. She said there has been zero contact since the last semi-spiteful email from him - right after NC call. Asked her a couple more things... she was still holding my arm. She finally let go and I got up and had a drink of water. Got back in bed and said, let's try that again, asked her to say my name, and cuddled up again. Woke up awhile later and wanted to just get on with my morning. She was super-apologetic this morning, saying she couldn't imagine how much it hurts... Even kept calling on her way to work. Asking if I'm OK, saying it's a dumb question. Told her it was just a reminder of where we're at. Told her I didn't think it was a huge setback just a reminder of where we're at. I told her that I'm not much less OK than I've been for the last month.

I dunno, at least there's real remorse in there I think. That's more than I get most of the time. She's sending an IM apology as I write this. She's so reluctant to apologize in normal life, I have to admit that it feels good to hear it. Lordy, my love bank is running low.

Pomdbd3, you make some very good points. I've asked many of my friends pretty pointedly if this makes sense to pursue reconciliation. In fact, it was my brother and his girlfriend who asked if I would right after D-day. I didn't think I would at the time, so I asked them and they immediately said yes. This kinda got me thinking it might be possible. Since then I think everyone I know thinks I should try, with the exception of this friend. This friend has seen all the crazy behavior during the affair and has been lied to and abused many times through this process, so she's seeing my wife in a very different light than other friends and family.

From where I sit today, I think it's going to be tough to achieve what I want out of this. She'll have to make some pretty significant changes and stick with them for the long haul. She's done this in the past, but then came to really really resent it. It's so hard to figure out who she is through this. I can only wait and see how this goes over the coming months. I have no intention of sticking around in a crap marriage, but I think there was enough good in the past to warrant my best efforts. I think I need to just set my boundaries, renegotiate our relationship with her, and stick with the boundaries. If she can't do it, then, well, she can't do it.

Pretty uneventful day today. Wife had her first talk with Dr. Harley this morning. She seemed like she was in a good mood afterward, so that's good. Had a pleasant evening with my wife and kids last night. When she got home from work, asked how I was doing, kept apologizing for the GIANT semi-asleep blunder of the previous night. Boy, I could get used to this apologizing stuff. Amazing how it makes the other person feel better? Has been thanking me more and more for the little stuff. Asked me to just come sit next to her last night instead of running around doing laundry etc. Cuddled up in bed and slept well. Could be the fog is receding a little. Her communication is improving bit by bit too. I'm celebrating a low anxiety day. I'm feeling strong and determined. The next big step is to actually get going with my life. Hard not to obsess.

Looking back at how bleak I've felt over the previous couple days, I know this is a temporary secession of anxiety, but welcome all the same. Date night tonight!

Zen: Sorry haven't caught up on your thread...busy hanging with the wife. I'll try to catch up soon.

Keep the faith...and stay Steve McGhandi!

That's a very good reason my man. Have a great weekend!

Well if I was contemplating starting a recovery thread, I think that all went away last night.

We had a date night. It started out pretty nice, a couple beers and some food while we waited for a few other friends to arrive. We hung out with the friends for awhile, then they went home and we went to another bar. I had one more beer and called a couple cigarettes. I'm not a smoker and the second cigarette made me nauseous. I stopped drinking at that point. My wife kept drinking. We were talking to some guy there and ended up chatting with him all evening. He and his friends were ready to leave and my wife got his phone number so we could join them at a party. She then started telling me that this is how she graciously declines offers from men while she's at the bars. I asked if we could not talk about it, trying to avoid relationship talk, and specifically THIS ISSUE!?!? She kept going with it, I guess trying to prove that she had boundaries. She said that Dr. Harley had suggested this step to her. I couldn't figure out what that had to do with anything, kept asking if we could talk about it later. She said this was the 4th step on the action plan Dr. Harley had recommended. She said some of the other steps were bullsh*t. She launched into a diatribe about how he didn't know how to handle her, she was too unique for his experience. She was basically implying that he didn’t know how to help her specifically, almost like she was too smart for him. She was pretty toasted and I was pretty sober at this point. The arrogance was too much for me and I lost my temper and asked if we could just go home. She started getting super angry back, blaming me for ruining the progress when I finally said "I'M DONE! I can't do this anymore!" She took off for the car and wouldn’t unlock the my door. I should have asked for the keys, but I was already too upset to think straight. She tried to drive off without me, she had had quite a few drinks at this point. I kind of stood in front of the car and calmly asked her if she'd take me home. She demanded that I be rational?! I said I would be. I got in and we FLEW down the road. She was demanding that I pack my things and move out. I didn't say much of anything. We got home and she was demanding that I leave. I just said I'm staying and going to bed. She started yelling and insulting and demanding that I leave, asking why I always made her leave (?!) She said she would call the police if I didn't leave. This is the second time she has threatened this. I aked her what she was going to tell them? She said that she was going to go to a hotel. I said you're probably going to the OM's house. She said she hasn't been able to talk to him and she just wanted to know if he was OK, but she couldn't ask that. I said something about her sleeping with another man and she came over to the bed and started hitting me. I just covered up and laid there. She kept yelling at me, finished packing then left. Haven't heard from her since.

Soooooo, that's where I'm at now. I think I'm done. Again. For me, it's the arrogance that seals the deal.

Zen.

All I got so say about "date nite" is fa-a-a-a-a-a-a-c-c-c-c-k.

That SUCKS! Had an old philosophy professor who once said alcohol was like truth serum. Or "liquid courage" as he called it in another context.

On the one hand her quoting Harley when she's drunk, well that's a good thing. But bashing him, calling herself smarter, bad-mouthing his techniques...well, not good.

And getting all angry with you, threatening, etc., well, again, NOT GOOD!

Maybe it's time to go dark. Head to Plan B, giver her a taste of reality and protect what little love you have left for her? Don't know what to tell you my friend. I glanced over your previous days but really it was your last post that caught my attention.

Seems like you take a few steps forward, then a big step back. Then more baby steps forwards...

You need to do some serious Steve McGhandi soul-searching at this point in your relationship Zen.

Do you think she's playing you? Do you think she's had contact with the OM? You still got her under the super-snoop microscope? Something just doesn't smell right in denmark...

Hang in there buddy. Keep posting what you are feeling. I should have more time to read and catch up here in next few days. Monday morning for sure...

Be strong!

Well, i think this recovery was the real deal, but when things got really bad last night, I kinda think she started using the arguement as an excuse to go back. Take the easy way out. Thing is, I didn't really do anything out of line until she had said enough ridiculous things that I couldn;t take it. i just said, "I'm Done." This was the LB that broke the camel's back I guess.

I'm feeling like I'm done. I'm sure there's some love in there somewhere, but I don;t think it's enough anymore.

It seems to me that going to a bar was a very poor choice for a date night.

Yup. Seems to be a pattern here, eh? I don't think she's willing to make that change. I don't think she's willing to make very many changes at all. That's why I don't think this can work.

I have lowered my standards trying to save this. Time to raise them again and get going.

Nope. You didn't lower your standards. You were Plan A-ing your tail off. You were Steve McGhandi. You were strong and improved YOURSELF.

...and she just kept being her.

Well, some of it was a genuine effort to change hang-ups and friction points between us. I've always been a non-drinker. I thought by drinking responsibly with her, that'd be just one area where we could connect and have fun. I'm not drinking as responsibly as I should and she most definitely isn't right now. It's certainly not helping us work on our marriage.

I have continually lowered the bar on acceptable communication from her, accepting verbal abuse and allowing behavior I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. She's barely involved in our children's life right now. I've allowed her to come back over and over without many real changes from her. I've allowed her to destroy our family, and was still willing to forgive. I am still willing to forgive. I have to someday.

I'm done with Plan A. I'll continue with Plan ME and Kids.

I don't think I'll even attempt a Plan B. I think Plan D with the knowledge that she can't make the changes I need to be happy in our marriage. She's not the one anymore. I guess if there was a miracle and she was able to really turn her life around before the divorce went through, I might think twice, but that seems so unlikely to me.

I just don't think I've got anything left to give. I don't think I love her enough anymore. I DEFINITELY don't like her at all right now. I never thought she would hit me? I never thought it would come to this.

Oh so tired. She just called and apologized. Started out a little defensive just saying it was so hurtful that I said I was done. I continued to stand up for myself and my boundaries and she became more apologetic and remorseful. Same pattern over and over. What am I doing wrong? Did I blow this? When I read about false recoveries, they mention over and over that they let them in the door too quickly. We made good progress over the last 2½ weeks, it was just this arrogance last night and every time it pops up its head that I simply can't take it. I told her this again. She said she was sorry, it was not her intent(!?).

I feel like the spouse of an alcoholic. I know Dr. Harley tries to differentiate between the addict comparisons and affair behavior while still drawing some obvious connections. Does anyone else wanna enumerate on that point?

I want to give it another chance, but I'm dangerously close to losing the energy to do it. My friends and family have reached the end of their ropes this time. I’m officially embarrassed at wanting to try.

She insists that she spent the night alone.

I think I know the answer to this but I lack the energy to articulate it right now. Any suggestions are welcome!

Oh and of course the verbal and physical abuse... that's a tough one.

Ditto.

She doesn't want to do the hard work. That's why she vilified Harley. Like typical WS's, she just wants it to be over.

All the crap she did to you, more of her covering up and taking the onus off of her and on you. Just doesn't want to do the hard work. Because she really isn't rock bottom and completely honest.

Maybe you just need to work on a R, if you so choose, from a distance. Start over as these two new people, and see if you really even like who the other person is any more.

I could really use some advice on this. If my wife wants to come back, I think I'm just making it too easy. I know there are some differing views on these boards about this, but I want some good solid advice.

I can't keep doing this with her attitude as it is. She says the right things, but does not live it. I am thinking of letting her come back, but she will sleep in a different room while we see if she can live within my boundaries.

My boundaries:

Follow instructions given during session with Dr. Harley.

No more arrogance.

No more bars for awhile.

Control your drinking and no drinking and driving.

Spend time with your children.

Follow MB guide to recovery.

I'm thinking of doing sort of a probationary period for our marriage. She can be in this home as long as she's not involved with the other man. She needs to earn my love and forgiveness because it has been eroded to a tiny fragment at this point. I will continue to Plan A, but in a pretty reserved manner.

Does this sound reasonable?

As long as she is willing to follow complete transparency, tell you where she is, shut down all her email and Internet access, change phone numbers, GPS on her phone, and any other requests you have. If she doesn't have the humility to accept these and your other conditions, she isn't ready to make your marriage work.

Yes, humility is what I need, and I only see it when she's afraid I'll dump her.

I don't think I'll go to Plan B after this. It would probably just be divorce proceedings. I'm prepared to go an attorny to discuss my options. I was going to do that tomorrow anyway. If I do, I will still leave the door open for my marriage, but I can't keep going like this any longer. It's up to her to take the steps. If she can win me back, great. If not, I have my answer.

Had a little more conversation with my wife. She is glad I'm willing to listen to her. Apologized again for the date night.

I'm feeling a little more resolved to stick with it. I need to remember why I wanted to try to save this marriage after D-day. There was so much good worth saving. I'm just concentrating on the negative right now. I think I need to establish some boundaries which allow us to concentrate on the positive aspects of our marriage.

I will be pretty firm with the boundaries tonight, but I think I need to make sure to express hope and love and commitment as well.

Once more into the breach!