Hi This is my story. I am a 36 year old male married to a 37 year old wife. My wife and I have been having some problems since July 2008. I asked her to tell me what was wrong, but she has trouble expressing her emotions due to growing up in a difficult household with an alcoholic mother and a gambler for a father. I suggested counseling several times, but she did not agree.

We have a beautiful 5 1/2 year old daughter. She is the best thing that ever happened to me in my life. I would go through a wall of fire for my daughter or my wife.

In December, she became increasingly distant and critical of me for almost everything. There was also some evidence of this in August. I confronted her on 12/31/08 and she stated that she was "talking" to some trainer at the gym since late November. I was not totally surprised, because I felt that my intuition was correct. My wife is a very attractive lady, but I am also a pretty good looking guy, too. I was angry at this situation and she was upset and left the house stating she "didn't know what she wants". She stated that they went to lunch together a couple of times. Blah blah blah. Typical WW nonsense.

There about 15 calls and texts in late Nov. and Dec. She and I talked on 1/1/09 and I told her that she needed to call him and tell him that they can no longer talk and she was going to work on our marriage. She called him on 1/1/09 and supposedly told him this information. There were no calls after this time. I have been checking daily without her knowledge. She returned home on 1/2/09.

We started going to counseling in early January. The first couple of sessions were ok. We had a couple of tough days in Jan. and Feb. but we were definitely getting along better. I begain looking at this site and I started paying even more attention to her needs.

I was still suspicious so I took some time and checked her prior cell phone records and there was contact on and off since August of 08. There were about 25 total calls and texts since August that I was not aware of before. She has not contacted him since 1/2/09, according to her cell phone. We are still going to the gym together and I have not seen her talk to him there. I confronted her about this information today on our way to counseling. I was very upset because she was not being honest about the start of this inappropriate relationship.

She immediately accused me of being jealous, blah blah blah. She states that they went to lunch about 4 times. She has not gone out in the evening without me during this time period.

I am committed to working on our marriage. Our counselor seemed ok, but his methods today did not give me confidence in his role to help save our marriage. He basically told me that these types of relationships are totally fine. He made me feel like I am the one being inappropriate for questioning this relationship. My wife loved this, of course. I feel that she enjoys the attention from this OM. I do not agree, because of the dishonesty part of this and the fact that her behavior changed during this period. I have not confronted the OM, but I am considering doing this now.

I am in Plan A right now. I told her entire family about this situation. Her mom supports her, of course. Everyone else pretty much supports me or is remaining neutral, including her brother. I do want to save this marriage, but I am welcome to any other suggestions. I plan on installing a key logger, and a tape recorder in her car and on our home phone. I am a good provider and excellent father for my family and my wife, but I have lost a lot of trust in her right now.

I am willing to give plan A more time. However, this counseler has now made it seem like no contact with this OM isn't really an issue. THanks for any suggestions or support you can offer.

Why not find a qualified counselor? I think you already know this counselor doesn't have the slightest idea what he is doing. Recovery of your marriage is impossible as long as she continues contact with the OM. That would like expecting an alcoholic to sober up while continuing to have drinks.

Just so you know, marriage counselors have an 84% FAILURE rate and don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages. They have a personal divorce rate that is HIGHER than the general population.

Marriage counseling is supposed to help in RECOVERY, but recovery is impossible as long as one partner is in an affair.

So, that would be my first suggestion.

I agree with your suggestion about this counselor. He appeared to give her a reason to justify the past behavior. She does not wish to contact him and claims that she hasn't since 1/2/09.

The affair was not a physical one, according to my wife. An emotional affair. To be honest with you, it hurts just as much right now.

I plan on amping up my surveillence to confirm or deny the NC she committed to in January.

Does she still go to that gym? Does she see him there?

She still goes there, but she hasn't seen him. I have been with her for all of these workouts. I also have access to her gym key card online. She doesn't know this, but I have been checking it and there has been no visits without me.

If I ever see him, I would like to give this guy a piece of my mind, if you know what I mean. Of course, this would probably not help the situation. I mean, it takes to start any type of affair. No one forced her into this stupid choice.

I hear your concern about seeing him by chance, even if she is really in no contact. I will set up my recorders and I hope to have more information on this in a week or two.

hurting, I would quit that gym PRONTO. Just going there keeps you both triggered. Eventually she will run into him, count on it. This is how 6 month affairs turn into 5 year affairs. You can count on a resumption unless you leave the gym. We have other here who didn't heed that advice and learned the hard way. You are doing nothing more than playing chicken by continuing at that gym and making it impossible for her to withdraw. The OM stays top of mind this way.

There is no reason you can't talk to the OM and tell him he will have issues if he ever contacts your W again. Is this punk married?

Is he a PT at the gym, and do they know he is a sle*zebag?

He is supposedly not married. He is a member at the gym. I am gathering additional information about him as we speak.

I plan to talk to him, man to man. I am concerned that I might take it too far, though. I believe that anyone who would actively pursue a married woman is a # 1 piece of garbage.

I hear you about quitting the gym. The gym is a place we both enjoy going to together. I know that there are risks to continuing to go the this place. I believe we will have to change gyms, but right now might cause more friction, since I am trying to jettison this counselor. I just printed out some names for some new counselors. I need someone who is pro marriage, not some quack who supports harmful relationships and independent behavior.

Good idea. It is very possible he is lying about being married. That is very common. One quick way to find out is look his name up on intellius.com and see if a woman comes up. You can call his house, disguising your # with *67 and see if a woman is on the answering machine or answers the phone.


Your belief is truth. If you are afraid you will beat him up, then take a FRIEND. A GREAT BIG MUSCLE BOUND FRIEND. The OM needs to know you are not going down easy.


Why not just get someone who knows what the heck they are doing? Such as Steve Harley? He can do in 3 sessions what others can't do in 10.

Or if you want a real fast horse, go to a Marriage Builders weekend. They are the absolute best in the business. My H and I went to this and it worked wonders. [Retrouville counselors go to this for their OWN marriages]

It is a weekend introduction to the MB program by Dr Harley. After your weekend, you are given weekly lessons that are guided by his staff. You will have daily contact with Dr. Harley on this forum. He will teach you to turn this around and fall in love again.

I got the report with this OM loser's information this morning. I know his address and I also know that he had a theft charge back in 2002. What a total idiot.

I am a pretty strong guy and a former powerlifter who benches 400 and deadlifts over 500 lbs. I am afraid that I will react in an inappropriate manner when I confront this piece of garbage. On the other hand, it would probably make me feel better.

My dilemma is that the wife now likes this quack of a counselor, since he decided to take her side on this inappropriate contact, telling me that jealousy is the main issue.

This of course is total BS, since I have never said or done anything to any male who has talked to her or that she knew in the past 11 years in our marriage until this situation. My gut instinct about something being wrong with her was dead on.

As far as meeting her emotional needs. I have been a good father and provider. I have made significant improvements in helping around the house and being more conversational with my wife. I have always been affectionate, but I am making more of an effort right now.

I would like to call the MB counseling line. Do they do single sessions? Can anyone tell me how the MB phone counseling has worked out for them? Any suggestions on how to convince a reluctant spouse to change gears to the MB approach, which I believe is pro marriage?

hurting, folks have had great success with Steve Harley via phone counseling. He does not counsel couples together, because that is disasterous and very ineffective. A single session can leave each other angry for weeks just because of all the lovebusting. The first session is just you. Thereafter, if your wife comes in, they would split the sessions, ie: you for 30 minutes, then her for 30.

He will help you persuade her to come to counseling and tell you what to say. He is very good and will assess your situation and give you a PLAN based on LOGIC. They don't work on feelings, since that does not work. And he won't tell you stupid things like the problem in the marriage is your "jealousy" after your wife has had an affair.

Many here have been very pleased with Steve Harley and his sister Dr Chalmers, who also counsels. Just my opinion, but I think in cases where the WS still has a wayward mind that Steve is your best bet.

In other words you are not paying for marital advice, but ENABLING of your wayward wife. I would tell your W you won't be going back. This "MC" is causing you more harm than good because of her lack of understanding of the dynamics of adultery. The next step is to tell you that you are "controlling" and "oppressive" for wanting to affair proof your marriage.

Here is what Dr. Harley, a clinical psychologist with 35 years of specialized experience in adultery says it takes to recover:

excerpt from Requirements for Recovery:

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.
here

I agree with you about the counseler. He is buying the friends story. After browsing this site, everyone in a PA or a EA always says the same stuff, we are friends, blah blah blah.

I am going to try to set up a session with MB counseler. In the meantime, I will continue to be strong, stick with plan A, and confront this OM piece of crap as soon as I can track down his sorry [censored].

I would change gyms immediately and write a letter to the management telling them exactly why. We have seen several instances of personal trainers hooking up with wives while hubby footed the bill. Seems to happen quite frequently.

Then, ditch the counselor.

Get a new counselor. Almost ever cheating spouse says that their affair partner is a friend. My XW said the same thing...He is just a friend. A friend I guess if you call a F-Buddy a friend. You have every right to be upset.

Your wife was going out to lunch with this guy (4 times)? They have a term for this and it is called dating. Women go out to lunch with men and eventually it goes further and then she goes from having a salad at Olive Garden to having tube steak in a hotel room or in your house.

I would ask your wife if it would be ok for you to start having lunches with attractive females. Tell her not to worry they will just be friends and you will make sure that when you are doing this you will probably start treating your wife like crap but nothing to worry about.

In my opinion it is worse for a married woman who is attractive to have lunch with another man. Why do you ask? Well because as men we know darn well what his motive is. We know as men our goal would be to get her to bed. Women should know this. Now a woman's goal may not be to go to bed but what other motive could there be for the other man?

My XW said her OM was just a friend. And she was angry when I found out she was eating a meal with him. I asked her what the OM motive could be with her. She said they just like to talk. I told her men don't sit around and talk about their feelings. They eat lunch with women so they can sleep with them. At the time my wife was already sleeping with him (I did not know this) but I kind of figured it was going on but the friend excuse was what all cheaters use.

After i filed for D my wife asked me not to go out with other women. I told her I would not until it is final but I said i may take them out to lunch as a friend like she did with OM. (I said it just to upset her) She begged me not to do that and of course admitted what their lunches were all about. The thing I learned about my Ex is that she would freak out if I did the things she did. When i started dating she called me all upset. What made that funny to me is my wife was "Dating" another guy when she was married to me. She changed the minute she realized she could lose me as a husband. Before this she use to think that I would always be there.

In my opinion your wife needs to know she can lose you as a husband if she dates other men. I am sure that she would be livid if a guy like you was out with women for lunch. I am not telling you to start doing this but I am telling you to never allow your wife to do it.


I think you are fine doing this but if she keeps with the story that you are just jealous then that will not fly. Be kind to your wife but you need to not let her to treat you this way without consequences.

Do call for a session. We session with Steve Harley and I can tell you it has been an amazing help. I am having a very difficult time getting through this. Steve has put me on a path that makes it much easier to cut through the nonsense. He has helped WH as well, the changes in him are stunning. If we make it it will be because in addition to this wonderful forum we counseled with Steve.

MB weekend is something everyone has suggested to us and to many others. We did sign up and are both looking forward to it. That might be good as well.

I will tell you why the Harleys succeed where others fail. First off, they understand the dynamics of what makes a marriage work. OTHERS DO NOT. The MC profession is absolutely clueless in general. [result= 84% failure rate]

Secondly, Dr Harley has an UNCANNY understanding of the addictive qualities of adultery that non-addicts normally NEVER GET. What he understands is that a wayward has the SAME MENTALITY as an alcoholic or a drug addict and is high on the affair. OTHERS DO NOT GET THIS. He sees this and patterns his program accordingly.

For example, since he knows an affair is an addiction he KNOWS the only way to recover is complete and total abstinence. He understands that the WS is high on the affair and dismisses their fogbabble the same as he would the rantings of a falling down drunk.

I am one of many recovered alcoholics here and we RECOGNIZE this mentality in waywards. It is odd that a normal would see it, but Dr H does and it may be because he ran a chain of alcoholic treatment centers early in his career. He has used this knowledge to his advantage.

He understands that adultery is one of the most traumatic things that can happen to a person, often leading to suicide, nervous breakdowns, PTSD. Others do not get this and utterly fail to protect the betrayed spouse.

But the greatest difference, IMO, is that the Harleys a) know right from wrong and b) offer a plan that is based on LOGIC, rather than feelings. Other MC focus on feelings and never get anywhere. MB says, lets put the feelings aside and follow a logical plan of action. Feelings will follow actions. THAT is the biggest difference, IMO.

Update as of today. I am working on getting the money together to have a counseling session with Steve Harley in the next week or two. I canceled our sessions with the run of the mill, "How do you feel" marriage counselor.

When all of this happened, I told my wife that she must call the OM and tell him that she will not see him or speak to him ever again. She called him and I confirmed this via the phone bill. I did not know it at the time, but this was definitely the right move according to MB. THere have been no other calls to his number.

She is under deep surveillence right now. I have the home phone, and car under surveillence, along with a daily check of all phone numbers on the cell phone. A GPS device is arriving tomorrow. I have not found anything on the phones so far, but I am not so naive to believe her at this point.

I am struggling to control my emotions on some days. Some days, I want to take it on on the OM, but the real culprit her is my wife's lack of boundries and the need to be admired by others.

I am not buying this jealousy crap, because she has never reacted in this manner before this situation. I know my own intuition was dead on right about her and this situation. I now have the OM's personal information. I am gathering more intelligence before I deliver the bomb to his wife, or GF, or job or all of the above. A confrontation is definitely in his immediate future. THere is no way that I am going down without a fight.

I have also really worked on improving who I am as a person. I know that I am not perfect, but I did not deserve to be disrepected in this manner. I am a good father and a devoted husband. If this thing ends with me on my own, I know that I can move on and be a better person.

I will update you on the status of my confrontation, counseling, and surveillence. I also wish the best for all of you suffering in your own tough situations. I feel for you, be strong.

Hello there 1972,
I have just read your thread and wanted to offer some support.
What this quack has said to your WW has indeed done more harm than good. She will cling to what he has said since to her, relieves her of any responsibility or fault.
If she brings this up, your supposed 'jealousy' or 'harmless' relationship, treat it like fog babble and walk away or change the subject. It is quite easy to entangled in a ping pong match that will go nowhere.

This is good that you confirmed the call, but you did not hear the conversation.
A NC letter written by WW, approved and mailed by you is also endorsed by MB.
Help with that letter can be found here, just ask.

This is great, not only the things you have in place, but the fact that you are open minded about what you have read here and you are actually executing the plan.

This is the crappy part. Emotions are all over the place, every day is different. I'm sure you've read about it.

Exposure is a great tool. When you tell family/friends, start by stating 'I need your help to save my M'. It's important that they know this exposure is not being done out of spite.


This one surprised me the most. It's like a great side effect to a nasty drug.
We really do come out a better person if we try.

Take care 1972, you sound like you have things in order. Prepare for rough seas ahead.

I just received the T Trac GPS device. Does anyone know if I should get the $ 50 per month fee or the $ 30 dollar month fee?

The $ 50 dollars is unlimited real time pings. The $ 30 is 100 real time pings per month.

I am thinking that the $ 30 per month would work for me. I know my wifes work schedule and this would still allow me to check on her during the week at least 3 times per day. We are always together on the weekends.

Just want to give you kudos on being a BH with balls.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if things had gotten physical with this guy or that she has a secret cell phone or that she's communicating in some other way.

You have a keylogger on your computer? There's free ones out there that will let you into her email.

There is a chance that you caught this before it got worse, which puts you in a lucky few.

And finally: Under no circumstances is it acceptable for a married person to go to lunch with a member of the opposite sex unless it is with the approval and blessing of the other spouse and more than likely as a job related fuction. Otherwise it's flat out wrong.

Don't let your WW tell you that it's ok and that he is just a friend and nothing will ever happen.

My exww thought it was ok to play video games with some kid on the base while I was at work. I had no knowledge of this friendship and questioned his motives. I discovered it by accident when I found them playing games during work hours while she was supposedly studying.

There was no affair going on, but it was huge indicator about boundaries.

She had none.

So what happened a year later? She cheated.

So you have every reason to not be happy about poor boundaries.