Your husband on the other hand, may not have been perfect, but is truely the man you want to be with.

Interesting conversation that has come of this, from my little "I'm not diggin' this" moment last night.

Let me get something straight right now.

I understand your concerns, ottert. And thought that myself last night after I re-read this post. I probably should have qualified it then, but thought it made sense in the context that it was written.

I do not long for FOM nor do I sit and ponder his favorable qualities. I was using all of the positive adjectives in the context I did (as you noted) for the point about affairing down. Did I forget to mention he was also selfish, cold, disgusting, two-faced, selfish, manipulative, dishonorable, kniving, selfish, greedy, inconsiderate, slimey, and did I mention selfish?

And so was I.

I have occasional contact with people who also know FOM. His name has come up since many know we were good friends and worked closely as managers back in the day. I'll get "Do you ever hear from FOM, L4?" and "How's FOM doing, L4?" and it's still always asked with a tone of reverence for the guy. While it stings me because I want to scream how FOM wasn't that wonderful after all back in the day, I have to remember that whatever I can think of him was also true of me. So while I want to say, "He's not as fantastic as you think he is," that was then and from my experience I know people can change -- snap out of it and try to become better. So I dismiss the comment, change the subject, and forget about it.

If you remember, my H and the FOM's BW and FOM were in contact immeidately after my confession, which was 4 months after their own D-day. H shared with me then that FOM and BW are working hard to save their M. I have to admit it helped me to know that they were trying -- that I couple I directly hurt was working hard to forgive each other and me, and moving forward as a couple, as H and I are now doing. I have no idea how they are doing or what they are doing since, and I do not dwell on it at all. I hate to see any M dissolve due to lack of effort so hooray for any couple that can recover after betrayal.

I don't mean to wallow in my relatively minor situation on your thread L4, but I thought it would help to know where I'm coming from and why the post in question bothered me.

LOL LG

Mark is gonna get you. :gobblegobble:

I like you and would pound down some Jamocha Almond Fudge ice cream with you.

BTW.......I bunked with a prostitute when I was in the joint and I will tell you that there was a VERY DISTINCT difference between the two of us.

Originally Posted By: black_raven
LOL LG

Mark is gonna get you. :gobblegobble:
<drumming fingers, waiting for the comeback...>

I'm sorry that I laughed at your expense, but this made me giggle -- picturing you hanging "in the joint" with your bunkmate...

I'm amped. H will be home in about 3 hours. While I love my kids and appreciate their friends that are over here now (it's a teacher work day), I'm very much looking forward to having a quiet home and my H in my arms.



Even though H will probably want to sleep for the next two days. But I can do that.

Gotta go get ready...

Mrs. Flint. Thank you again for coming here at my request.

I credit this for helping me lower my boundaries.

Where our H's differ. Pre-A, H didn't pay attention and despite my begging for it, he put little effort into making our M work. Not that I had the answers. I may have not been doing the right things to make it work either (no idea about LBs and ENs), but I voiced a desire to try. I didn't even get that from H.

What were you afraid of?

I had happily numbed myself to the marriage. I had to do that to be able to do what I did. Beginning MB would mean having to engage in the marriage again which meant I could be hurt again.

Is Jim usually the pro-active one in your relationship? Does he jump in first as I do?

We have both learned to be pro-active in the marriage. Jim has a take charge kind of personality that he is usually the leader and did find MB for us.

BS's have the right to demand this of WS's as part of any chance at healing. I am in no position to ask, let alone demand my spouse do this.

Yes and no. Your BH has the right to divorce you or to see if the changes you are making are permanent or simply a ruse on your part to get him back. He does not have the right to abandon the marriage permanently! If he refuses to engage you in the marriage after a reasonable length of time I would negotiate a date with him to begin counseling with someone mutually agreeable to you or I would begin looking at life without him. It is not even close to that time for you because your heart is still in it however it is not marriage at all costs and abandonment of the marriage and refusal to love me would be too much for me to take.

How can I help him understand?

He mocks MB. He knows it's important to me and is fine with me doing it, but he disses it when he can. Along with IC and MC.

I've told him. Over and over. As everyone here has told me and as Dr. Harley has told me to do. I don't know how else to do this.

As I mentioned above, the need for him to engage in the marriage after a reasonable length of time is necessary not only for his respect of you but also for your sanity. Your children will grow up without a mother because of what it will do to you emotionally and healthwise if he refuses to engage with you in the marriage. He will never understand how your low self esteem caused this without someone to show him. It is not there yet but it may come down to a showdown with him, either counseling and engage in the marriage or we may not make it.

Yes and no. I needed an ego boost, most definitely. A boost of something as my self esteem was pretty stinkin' low. I wanted to feel desireable, admired, attractive, smart... I needed to feel better. I may have ridden off into the sunset if FOM had asked when I was in the thick of it. It was never going to happen even if FOM's BW and my H kicked us both to the curb. Neither of us would ever live away from our kids and FOM and I live states apart, and we have some strong fundamental differences in lifestyle. I didn't allow myself to think it was possible because it wasn't, but I thought I was in love with FOM and would fantasize about being a couple. Yes. Disturbing.

Did you notice the contradictions in your statement? Yes, I thought at one time I would ride off with him, then I knew I never would because of kids, family, etc. It's all fantasy isn't it? Tell yourself anything to make the low self esteem go away. Even that I loved him, right? You and I both know if that had been the case we would have found a way and just left. We didn't.

I wanted to be with H, but didn't believe he wanted to be with me. Once I accepted that H didn't care (my unfair DJ, not H's truth), I determined that in fact I didn't want to be with H. 'I deserved to be with someone who wants me to be happy,' I told myself. During one discussion when I flat out told H that I was unhappy, H stated, "Well I'm happy so it's your problem." I changed my thinking about my M and my hopes for it upon hearing that single sentence.

I still feel this way about H.

It may happen. It does matter though what you are doing about it. Being the wife any man could be proud of is the start. Showing him how to forgive you is next and you to forgive him. You first.

H has never had a problem with RH. I obviously did. Though H would withold stuff. We both would.

That is not radical honesty. That is lying by omission! Failure to answer questions is still lying.

Still makes my eyes water.

You should be. You should be very proud about who you are too, Mrs. Flint.

Thank you.

So all of this leads me to ask...

Do you think you would be recovered as you are without both of you participating in MB?

The short answer is no.We had tried many different counselors and none of them would deal with the issues of my low self esteem and my withdrawal from the marriage. Jim also learned how to listen to me which was absolutely huge.

Would you be together if you did MB but Mr. Flint didn't? Or if only he did it?