Glad to hear you say that Cat, because the thing about the short leash bugs me. I just had more chat where she seemed sorta terse - one of her favorite emotions. I just want humbleness given the situation.

On the positive side, she said sorry several times, right? I think I believe her, so who knows.

Just feeling depressed today for some reason. Well, obvious reasons. I've tried to be strong for so long and it just gets hard after awhile.

Ah heck, *pulling up my bootstraps* She's in the sink or swim position, not me! I've got the kill switch right here in my hands. That's a good feeling. At least there's that feeling of a tiny bit of control. Gotta take comfort in knowing I'm doing my best. I am.

So how do you get outta this stuck mode and start paying attention to the rest of your life? Is there a drug to be prescribed for that?

Short leash...heck YES! She needs to be on a short leash. And the reply by her was a step in the right direction. Short leash means you are setting the bar high my friend. Nothing wrong with that.

I remember something Melody told me a long while back -- words are cheap. Sorry is a good thing to hear from WS, but ACTIONS speak louder than words.


You don't needs drugs Zen. I avoided the anti-depressants because I was afraid they would make me feel numb to all this. As much as I hated it, I *needed* to feel the pressure and weight of this affair on my soul. I needed to see my true feelings through all of this. But that's just me. Never liked the idea of meds.

Her attitude...yep, sucks when the WS is arrogant, unwilling, selfish, etc., but that's what waywards do. You are probably still seeing the withdrawal and maybe even a little fog still. Patience.

One thing struck me when reading your e-mail to your WW -- you sound a lot like me! I was in supervisory roles for 20+ years. Saw my self as a "people person" not a "business person" -- worked at unversities and didn't like to "throw people away." Whats that all mean? Looking back I think I was too nice, let people run over me and did things because I wanted to avoid conflict.

Does this sound like Zen? (maybe that's why we get along so well on these threads?)

Start with something small in your mind. Sit your wife down and say, "i really need this from you...I need this to help me with my sanity and being able to cope with all of this..."

It can be any little thing, but make it little for now -- but something outside of her box. Be calm, be McGhandi and just make the statement and sit back and see what she does. If she comes through for you, priase the crap out of her! Thank her up and down, and say, "this means a lot to me." And leave it at that. Don't be needy, clingy, etc.

If she doesn't come through, re address a week or so later. See where that gets you. Don't be demanding, be subtle, but ask for what you NEED.

I think the difference between your wife and mine is this -- I'm driving the recovery bus and my wife is standing four rows back. she's there, and can see the road ahead...but also the road behind. She's just a passanger right now trying to decide where to sit.

Your wife is driving the bus with her arrogance and attitude. You are standing next to her with your hand on the wheel, and have a little say in where the bus is going, but you can't wrestle control away from her. You've almost gotten off the bus a few times, as she has stopped and opened the door...but at the last moment she shuts the door and drives on.

I think you've got to find a ways to sit next to her and drive the bus together. She needs to give up some control of that wheel, and you need just a little more to make yourself sane and keep you on the bus.

It's early and I'm probably rambling...

Take care and hang in there. You and I are both miles from where we started, and that's a good thing!

The prescription for that is to shake up your life, get out of your rut. Why don't you two find a charity at which the two of you can volunteer? It's an amazing way to spend time together - you see each other in the best light, it's inspiring, you feel better, it gives you something to talk about...and of course you're helping someone (or something) else in the process.

Have I given you my list of things to do?

Yeah, I don't want anti-depressants for the same reason. I've never had insurmountable emotional or mental issues and I think I can move through this healthfully. I have to admit though, this has pushed me further than I've ever been pushed. There are times when I think I'm going to break. Last night was one of those nights.

My wife had a weekly meeting after her regular hours last night. I took the kids to dinner with my brother for his birthday. The plan was that she would meet us at the restaurant after her meeting. We talked about this several times over the last two days. We got our food, ate talked, etc. Texted my wife that we would order her food if she was on her way. This was about 7:30. The kids normally go to bed at 8:00. My daughter started complaining about a stomachache, and there's not a peep from my wife. Daughter was getting really whiney with a painful tummy, so I packed the kids up, apologized to my brother and headed home. Got home, daughter threw up and felt better, and I put them to bed. Got a text from my wife at about 9:00: "We're still goofin around... if that's bad and you want me to leave, let me know, I'm at silly *restaurant* ..."

I didn't reply. I was so furious. As I as putting the kids to bed I was sure my brain was going to break. The only thing that made me feel better was thinking about getting her out of my life. It took me about an hour to calm down and just settle on these pleasant feelings of divorce. Took some sleep aids and finally drifted off to sleep at about midnight.

She got home at about 1:00, was trying to make small talk. I could barely respond. She got in bed and was silent. I was wide awake but finally fell asleep. Sure enough, she was super-cuddly this morning, got up before I did to make coffee (she NEVER does this) helped get the kids ready... just so pleasant and helpful. It's that fear of kicking her to the curb that inspires her to be nice. When I'm nice, she just seems to fall right back into the selfish pattern. Being nice gets me nothing. You're right DNU1, I'm a conflict avoider.

Time to firm up. I feel like it erodes some of the Plan A stuff, but talk is cheap and I'm tired of listening to her hollow words. Just tired of this whole mess. Starting to really worry if I can forgive her. Read so many posts yesterday of people in recovery who are absolutely beating their heads against the wall. Many of them are a year or two down the road and they sound just like I do 3 weeks down the road.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

So it's when she's scared, after she's f*cked up that she springs into action. What does this say? Is this typical? Instead of apologizing about last night, she's just going to pretend it didn't happen? I mean I guess this is an example of actions speaking louder than words...

She sent this to me this morning. First thing on her list from Dr. Harley:

ok, so I've been working on this a bit over a few days here and there. I'm trying to think of anything I have missed. let me know what you think.

Phone
I have deleted all voicemails, texts and contact information regarding OM. I do not have his number memorized and could not call him. If contact were made, I would immediately hang up and call Husband. If I got a voicemail or text, I would give it to Husband to review and delete without reviewing it myself.

Email
I have deleted all email contact information and where applicable have blocked being able to receive emails. I would notify Husband immediately of any emails and have Husband go in and delete them without reading them myself. I do not have OM's contact information memorized and will not try to contact him.

Internet
All public (facebook, myspace) avenues to contact me have been blocked/made private. I do not seek out contact through these avenues and would not respond to contact via these avenues. I would notify Husband immediately of any contact.

Mutual friends/acquaintances
I do not really talk to the mutual friends at this point, but if at some time I were to, I would not inquire about OM and would ask to not be informed if information was volunteered. I would notify OM of any information I was told and how I handled it.

Common places
I know that OM goes to Renners, The Red Barn and Tryon Creek. I will not go to those places. In Our City it is possible that we could be at a grocery store or something at the same time and I would promptly leave without contact or acknowledgment. I would notify Husband immediately if something were to occur.

It's hard Zen. I constantly find myself thinking "I shouldn't say that...", but I've got to break through.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't your angry outbursts come after a bit of alcohol? And when she's had little too much to drink?

Next time you are both stone-cold sober and she pisses you off say you need some time alone and make it clear with your body language that you aren't happy.

Then head some where and get your head on straight, compose a quick plan. After you have gathered yourself return and say you piece to her. Don't let her draw you in to a fight or argue with you at all...just say, "look, I'm really upset and need to get this out..." and be patient, calm and just tell her what's bothering you.

And when you are done, and have had your say, then leave the room and take some ME time (you time). If she follows and tried to be snuggly, say sorry, tell her you are furious and don't want to AO with her and just need a few moments to yourself.

Then just see what happens from her end. Give her time to let that all sink in.

My wife did the LB, disrespectful judgement / passive aggressive thing a few weeks back and it made me furious (I think i posted on that night). I was initially reserved and didn't want to confront her...but needed to. I walked back to the bedroom and was calm, but visibly upset and let her have it. Not mean, but told her those actions were unacceptable. Then I went back downstairs.

That seemed to be a turning point in our recovery. That was the night where I realized that if we did not save our marriage, well, I was okay with it!

Something changed that night. Something changed in me and in her. She saw me upset and fed up. And I think that had an impact on her and forced her to try harder at our recovery.

Good luck to you my friend. I know this is hard. But at least we have each other and this forum. The first affair, 14 years ago, I had none of this and wandered through the darkness for 10 long months...ICK!

Strength!

She's being super-chatty this morning, offering to pick up the kids tonight, showering me with small talk.

I'm being really cool and stand-offish. I don't want to play these mind games. I just want to be me. Oh dear god I'm so tired of this.

I guess I'll try to strike a balance between the two? I dunno.

Tell her you are pissed about that situation (last night?),and tell her you sense she's trying to be "all nice" just to smooth things over.

TELL HER! You will be amazed how that weight will be lifted off your chest. Don't save all your anger and frustration for when you have had a few drinks...DO IT NOW!

Her latest email:

"you are really laying low today. good job."

I have a ton of work on my plate, so I think this is her impression - I'm being uncommunicative because of this. I dunno, she's going really overboard with the sweet texts and chit chat today. She KNOWS she sc*wed up. We're having lunch and going to a notary (to sign a second deed on our house {in the event of divorce, I want to have this all cleaned up so I can keep the house}). I think I'll tell her after the lunch that I'm angry. I know it's childish, but I'm enjoying this too much.

Concerning my last post:

Funny thing is, I've had plenty of days where I've consciously avoided much contact with her. She was just so buried in her selfish little world, it didn’t even sink in! She was probably grateful I wasn;t bothering her! Now that she's feeling needy and a little scared, she's noticing. Very interesting demonstration of fog vs. scared.

Exactly why you have to be strong and decisive and MAD with a WS. It's the only language they'll understand from you.

I had lunch with her, same kind of aloof attitude from me. She was nervous and chatty, similar to when we were first dating! Even after the lunch, she called me twice right after we left the parking lot to ask if I was OK and tell me a favorite song was on the radio. It's interesting, I'm worried I'm playing a game, but it's pretty easy to be this way after so many setbacks... Am I slipping from as state of conflict into withdrawal? I dunno, maybe. I think if I saw her making some real effort, I'd probably be more than ready to reengage. I just want her to do more of the work. I want her to stop slipping back into selfish mode so easily. The No Contact Plan was nice.

Steve McGandhi is coming into his own.

You want to be calm and cool, but don't fall in to the trap of avoiding her and holding back your feelings. Remember, role model behavior that you want her to show towards you = open and honest!

Steve McGandhi is a good thing, but remember the Ghandi part...communicate! Tell the world, er, your wife what's on your mind! Being quiet to make a point is okay, I've done that, but when it leads to you holding back your true feelings that is a very bad thing. Repeat, very bad thing!

Isn't it interesting how the shoe is now on the other foot? Your wife clearly is feeling your distance and displeasure with her actions. She sees how this is having effect on you. Clearly the fog is lifting and she is noticing.

Now take advantage of her state of mind and open up and be honest.

[it's great to type this to you because it reminds me to be OPEN and HONEST with my wife! I need this just as much as you do!]

I am convinced that my peaceful tranquil life has somehow fallen into the hands of some a*shole Hollywood producer and he keeps saying, "Not enough drama, not enough craziness! These two are being pushed to their limits... let's push them past!!!"

My wife is on contract with a big hi-tech firm here in town, in their internal marketing dept. It's a job that she got only about 4 months ago when the job market was really hitting the skids, and she managed to land this well-paying job after being at home with the kids for about a year and a half. It was very impressive and a testament to her ambition and work ethic. It's always been a little scary because this is a position covering for someone on maternity leave, but she was led to believe they would keep her on after maternity leave was done.

Well, as of today, they didn't. Because it was a contract, there was no notice, just, "Sorry, we don't need you anymore."

Now I can't help thinking part of my wife's crazy-a*s-midlife-crisis-falling-off-the-planet-party-life-affair episode was brought on by some long-running money stress around here. She always gets way more freaked-out about it than I do.

So here we are. She asked me to go have a couple shots of tequila with her. Now as a recent teetotaler, I am already embarrassed about how prominently alcohol is figuring in this story. But here's another chapter none-the-less. We went to a dive bar nearby, one of my alien wife's haunts, by the way, and sat and talked. She had some shots and beer, I had 2 beers over about 3 hours. I was drinking water for about the last hour and she was headed south. She was getting pretty emotional and started talking about her late teen years. Interestingly, she has kind of reverted to this pre-children time period over and over during this whole thing. She had her son at age 19, so early adulthood ended pretty abruptly for her. So I'm sober and she's drunk and really upset about her job, reminiscing about a time well before me... occasionally apologizing to me for taking me away from work etc. Pretty soon it's time to pick up the kids. So she's smoking in the car and totally drunk and I get the kids, ask her to put out the cig before they get in the car... (The kids have never seen her smoke - she only took it back up in this crisis).

We grabbed some nasty fast food and headed home, wife trying to sober up because I have a deadline for some work and will be working all night on it, so she's on kid duty. After dinner we put the kids in front of the TV and she attacked me in the spare bedroom. We had some intense and long-lasting SF which was pretty dang fun, but a little weird, but overall good I think. Now I’m sitting down to work. See? I'm working.

Anyway, if I had read this 5 months ago, I would have thought this was some crazy trashy family with massively serious issues. A million miles away from my family. But no, this is my little Jerry Springer episode unfolding right here in my home with my family. Wow. Another crazy day. I hope my wife can hold it together. I'm being very supportive. Not feeling a whole lot of stress. I guess I've already faced my worse fears. This ain't nuthin!

Oh, one interesting detail from tonight: She was talking to an acquaintance from the bar and said, "I get really arrogant when I'm drunk..." Looked at me. So there's something getting through. Sheesh. Problem is I'd rather she didn’t get drunk 2 or 3 nights a week. I'd rather she wasn’t acquainted with these bar hags at the local dive bar! There's just so much else to overcome. She's been living this double life long enough I worry she can't come back to what I think is acceptable. I'm willing to compromise and meet her halfway on many things, but alcoholism is unacceptable. OK, just keep forging ahead. There's no end in sight.

So she's going out drinking with a friend again tonight. A completely trustworthy friend who is driving, but COME ON!?!? I brought up the night before and that I was really angry about it. She got massively defensive and said that she was trying to head off being fired today. I said that I thought that's why she was being so nice today, she said, "No I was planning on being nice today!" What?! I swear I can't win. I just want out of this. There's just no end to the misery. Now I get to wait up all night for my drunk wife to return again.

I can't seem to ge any work done. I'm just so tired.

Hmmmmm, your wife's drinking seems to be getting a little out of hand, don't you think?

Having a child @ 19 and not being able to experience life like she would have liked...I see a pattern here.

Could it be your wife felt trapped by her becoming a mother at such a young age? Maybe this affair is her way of re-capturing her youth? Could she be trying to escape the rigors and responsibilities of married life? Of motherhood?

As an example: My wife is 10 years older than her sister. Her parents worked opposite shifts and my wife was forced in to taking care of her younger siblings -- something she regrets to this day. And she wasn't allowed to go away to college, had to live at home and go local. So never really got to experience the freedom she wanted.

IC pointed out that many of the traits my wife liked in the OM related back to her childhood experiences -- OM had freedom, ability to come and go as pleased, no wife/kids to tie him down, good job with good money, care-free life. Throw in fact that my wife turned 40 this summer and it hit her HARD...well, you have seeds of the affair planted, fertilized and watered! Ick.

I'm just pointing this out for you to consider Zen. I know Harley doesn't look much at peoples past, feeling it takes valuable time away from the process of ending affair and recovering marriage. Just something to consider...

My wife's IC suggested she do some small things on regular basis to help her experience that freedom from responsibility -- walk in the park by herself, play a mindless computer game, take a bath with no interruptions -- things to help her relax.

Could this be why your wife likes to hang out @ bars with friends and get drunk? Could she be running from the responsibilities of motherhood and marriage?

This is going to be a fine line for you to walk if this is indeed the case. Too much freedom and she will drift away. Too much control and she may resent you...and drift away.

I could be waaaaaay off here, casuse you know, I'm trying to help you without seeing the complete picture.

Hang in there my friend. Your WW has lots of issues to work through and you know as well as I do that this is a marathon. You are doing great! Keep up the fantastic work.

I'm sorry, but if I was in your shoes, and she told me that she's going back out to a bar, I would tell her 'Then your bags will be packed and waiting for you on the porch when you get back.'

She will never understand anything else. She won't!

The radio station I listen to has a preacher who makes a little blurb every day (it's alternative rock, oddly enough), and today he said (and I printed it out to keep):

Denial of responsibility is the essence of immaturity.

She will never respect you until you respect yourself. Letting her go - yes, letting - out and get drunk 3 times a week is an insult! Stop it!

Hmmmmm. At first I kind of thought Cat has something here. Then I remembered the very wise words of my IC -- if I make threats and demands on my wife I'm just pushing her away. And I'm planting the seeds of resentment and anger. Better to "help her understand" her errors and subtly get her to make the changes herself. Guide her.

Zen, if you at a breaking poing in your relationship, then Cat's recommendation might be a good plan. Only you will know because you sleep next to her every night, not us. Careful with that decision. You are really laying down the gauntlet and need to be willing to head right to PLan B if you make that demand.

I can honestly tell you that if I had made such an ultimatium at a certain point in my wife's affair she would have walked out because of sheer stubbornness. She was foggy and the wayward speak was within her. Make the same demand today and she would likely kiss my [censored] until my nose bled. That's just where she is right now...willing to work on our marriage.

Careful Zen.

Yes DNU1, I think this is exactly as you describe, sort of an early midlife crisis/reaction against motherhood/lack of freedom. This is what I thought it was from the get go, and all her behavior reflects it. Even little things like an ad on TV might portray a stereotypical mom in boring clothes doing laundry. She'll make all kinds of comments about how lame the ad is. I understand her feelings to a point, and I wish we had found some more common ground before it became a crisis, but in the end, these are all decisions she made and she needs to own up to them or run away.

Yes, the drinking is out of control. It's at a level I could never live with in a healthy relationship. But, I agree with DNU1, I need to walk carefully. I have laid out some boundaries and she is respecting them for the most part, like everything else, it's two steps forward, one step back. Actually I think we're at about two steps forward, two steps back. This job stuff couldn't come at a worse time. But, this is adulthood and parenthood. It ain't easy. That's why it's nice to have a team mate.

I'll address the drinking in some subtle ways and see if it slows down when we're out of crisis mode. She wasn't a heavy drinker during most of our years together. Early in our relationship, I laid down the law with drinking and smoking, and I think it just caused this simmering rift in the end. I won't be married to an aloholic though. That's an easy one for me. Tonight's date night will be dinner and a movie. No bar.