Guys, I hope you realize I was speaking with tongue in cheek. You don't just kick people out for acting out.

But I'll reiterate that you need to step up. She won't respect you if you tread so carefully that she can see the track marks on your back as she scoots out the door to the bar.

If you had a 19-year-old daughter who was hitting the bars like she is, what would you do? Why does your wife get off with less? Cos she can leave you?

Look. I'm all for getting the freedom out of your system. But there comes a time when you finally have to say 'OK, I really did a number on my Inner Child. I got to experience the fun I missed out on. It was great. It was terrible. And I can't keep doing this for the rest of my life. For one thing, my liver won't let me. What do I do now?'

Your job, as her husband, is to point out that she's had quite a good run, and it's time to start acting like the grownup she is. If not you, who?

Agreed. There is a fine line between supportive and loving spouse, and doormat. Boundaries are a good thing. Chains are not. I think we are all on the same page here.


Oh, I ran a college residence hall with 450 men for three years...then co-ed hall of 600+. College aged students are VERY different than my wife of 40. If my 19 year old daughter were hitting the bar like that you can bet your britches I'd be hammering on her about her behavior...and HARD!

But hopefully my 40 year old wife of two would have a different perspective. Now when my wife occasionally goes out for dinner and drinks with her 38 year old girlfriend, she's responsible and generally comes home looking for some lovin (which is a good thing). But again, there is a fine line between being social and being a bar regular and abusing alcohol.



Cat, that last statement really hits home! Nice work. The challenge is how to help the wife understand that without DJ-ing her? How to "help her understand" the errors of her way without throwing down an ultimatium? There in lies the challenge our friend Zen has to deal with.

Yes, you want her to stop, but you want her to stop because *she* wants to stop. Not because she's doing it for someone else.

Maybe the "inner child" can come out less destructive ways? Ways that Zen can share with his wife? Date nights are good, as long as the liquid courage remains shelved. Date nights have helped my relationship greatly. I treat her as if I'm wooing her all over again. It's amazing to watch her face light up because I'm paying special attention to her. And she responds with similar attention to me.

Marathon Zen...marathon!

You guys make excellent points. I agree that some middle ground needs to be reached, with date nights, weekends together, just adult activities that are completely outside the kids. I think we're doing a good job of that, but the drinking is just at too high a level. I have no problems with responsibly drinking adults, but this is getting trashed over and over and it's not going to work in the marriage that I want.

I'm trying to remember the principle of 'save the marriage first, work on the marriage after.' This was Dr. Harley's advice as well.

Things are still so fragile and screwy around here that I feel the best course of action is to lead by example. Continue to keep my life together and my children's lives together, continue to grow and move forward. I don't think she's in the affair anymore, so this is another chapter. I'll help her where I can, I'll gently nudge her, but I just don't think making demands of her helps her want to change. I've already laid out some boundaries for the marriage. I will reiterate that alcohol abuse is not acceptable. But I'm not going to be her Dad or her savior. I did that before and it worked for awhile, but eventually she rebelled. If she can't stand up on her own two feet, then she's not going to be a healthy partner. I don't think there is a way to point this out to her without it being a judgment. I think the only thing I can do is to hold her to a certain level, and if she can rise to it, good.

I'm trying to slow everything down on my end. Just be patient and take care of me. I will push her a long a little, make helpful suggestions, try to keep her going with her Dr. Harley sessions. I'll give it more time and more breathing room. I need to stop hanging on every word, every mistake and every tiny bit of progress. The roller coaster is gonna throw me off any moment if I'm not careful.

This may come as a surprise, but my wife got drunk and everything went down the tube again.

I don't want to go into the details right now, but I left her at the bar where she was drunk and crazy last night.

Advice?

Intervention?

OK, I'll try to give the short version because I know my posts are kinda long-winded:

For date night I wanted to do dinner and a movie. My wife wasn't into it. I suggested we go to a brew pub to meet up with my brother and his girlfriend. She liked that idea. I spent the whole evening getting the kids fed, folding laundry, giving them baths, my wife was just on the computer.

Babysitter got here, we went to the pub. It was a nice time for awhile, just relaxed talking and some very good beer and sausages. After awhile my wife starts asking around the table if someone would like to do a shot of whiskey with her. I everyone declines, but finally my brother’s girlfriend gives in. They get back to the table and my wife almost immediately switches into this aggressive party mode. I'm feeling less and less included in the conversation, she's just kinda bulldogging her way through a subject that no one at the table seems to really care about. She keeps drinking more beer and starts getting amorous with me. I think this is our queue to go home! Everyone else went home but she wanted to keep going. She's very amorous and is becoming this person I don't know once again. She suggests that we go find the bar where *so and so* is working. This person was the person she had the one night stand with right before D-day!!!? I'm flabbergasted. I say, "No, I don’t ever want to see that person in my life." She brushes it off, then starts talking about job prospects and starts saying she could become a stripper... This is making me feel so lost and disconnected and she senses it, asks why I'm pulling back. I say that I don’t want to be married to a stripper. She says "I was just kidding around..." I don't think she was. So I'm in a pretty bad place here. We get to a bar, (I'm driving and sober) didn't know it, but this was the bar where the one night stand person works. She walks in and asks if this person is working. Again, I'm flabbergasted, and ask to leave. The bar tender/owner says he fired this person last week and was very grumpy. Wife gets her drinks and sits down, I tell her that I'm amazed that she can't see how this is effecting me, how inappropriate it is. She tries to turn it into a conversation about getting a job here. She's just moving in and out of rationalizations and lies so easily it's astounding. I tell her that her drinking is becoming a big problem and she just brushes it off. I tell her that I would like to go, and the fight starts escalating. She's telling me that I'm ruining our progress at this point, I'm arrogant, everything is black and white with me, trying to rationalize the one night stand... Finally I convince her to go. She's pretty lit. Walking back to the car, she takes one more dig at the subject and I say that it's absurd that she doesn't see how terrible this is. She turns and walks off. I continued to my car and drove home to relieve the babysitter. She called and was crying saying that I left her like a street person and I always get my way and I was Mr. Perfect, and had a silver spoon and she hates me, then hangs up. I text her that I can't come get her because of the kids but please take a cab home. No response. I texted her this morning that I will pick her up if she needs it. No response.

So, here I am again. The chasm between us is just too great. She's very very much still in this other life she has created, She seems to want to crash and burn. I'm at a loss. I just want out at this point.

Zen, It looks like you had a rough time. I have two brothers and a mother in law who have substance abuse problems. Alcohol can be worse than anything.

I would be worried about the substance abuse component in your situation. I think the alcohol is allowing your wife to place herself in jeopardy and is clearly hurting your recovery together.

Is it possible for you to get her some professional help? This is tough for her to see right now, but maybe someone else can mention the impact of the alcohol to her?

I am having a bit of a bad week myself. I just found out I had pneumonia and my WW has been less than supportive. Hang in there and just take it day by day. You are a good person and good father. Remember that it is sometimes one step forward and two steps back.

Oh Zen,

I took more than an hour today catching up on your thread. I ended here at page 39.

On about page 17? or so I already knew where this was heading i am sorry to say. You and I are have been married to the same type of person.

I know the hell you have been through, been there myself. My WW is very hot, party chick, naked hot tubs etc. etc. etc. My thread's first page would give you some insight about how similar our WW's are.

What strikes me very clearly is this:

1. You have grown as a person emotionally by facing and dealing with this crisis. You have gained wisdom and insight that your WW simply does not have. You are in a different place.

2. You are in vastly different places with regard to your maturity. The acting out and drinking are one thing, but your outlooks on life are another. She is still an immature child, angry that you are acting in a responsible manner which only makes her feel guilty for her true ambition; having fun. You on the other hand have grown and realize that fun is an important part of life, but we must accept that challenges are not always fun but are an essential part of maturing as a human being.

3. She is gaming not only you, but herself. When I read that you tried to POJA her time to return home from some dinner with clients between 10PM and you acceded to midnight and then she returned at 2:30 AM, so early in FR (in my opinion,) I was flabbergasted! The desire to hang out at the pub where the ONS occured is a childish smack at your moral authority.

Why does she want to run off the road??? Because you are defining boundaries based on a moral paradigm and she is incapable of living under them. She feels trapped.

She is miserable. She knows what is "right" and wants to be thought of as a woman of rectitude, but a few drinks in her...

In Vino Veritas.

I have some more thoughts on this based on my experiences with my WW who is cut from the same cloth. I will try to catch up later. The alcohol is a problem, yes, but it is only a symptom and a coping mechanism for a far deeper one.

You are a very good man for trying as hard as you have, but in some instances, as it has been my painful experience to know, there are some people who don't want to be saved.

Does she have any family nearby? I can't remember.

I would either call them and ask them to help you with an intervention, or call them and them you are about to kick WW out of the house and are letting them know in case they want to take her in.

Then act according to whether they'll do an intervention or not.

Sure enough, called very remorseful and apologetic. Had a very good talk, well me doing most of the talking as usual, but we all know that the words don't mean sh*t at this point. I think I'm going to talk with Dr. Harley before I make a decision. Please continue to weigh in, it really helps. Kind of leaning toward filing for divorce, and telling her that she has some time to fix it if she can, but the process is started. But, yeah, seems like the writing is on the wall.

You know how it works, right? Someone who has taken on an addiction like this, usually has to hit rock bottom, reach total humility, before they can admit their faults and ask for help.

Standing up against her is actually helping HER.

Zen,

Can you tell me why you are trying to stay married to this person? Please don't interpret this as an attack.

I am just wondering if without saying, "because I love her" you can articulate a rational reason why continuing to try to keep this up is a good idea for you and your children?

Well, I'm hoping this is some sort of rock bottom. She apparently fell down in the street and got all scraped up last night after she left. Not surpirizing because she was pretty tipsy as I helped her out of the bar. Said she broke the fall with her face. I don't think she thought I'd drive away. This is just too surreal?

I want to save my marriage because... um... uh... Well, right now if you really pressed me, it's because of my kids. It's because one of the most important goals in life was to give my children a different life than I had. I thought my wife and I had the right ingrediants so I want to give it every chance I'm physically capable of. I know. The dysfunction and craziness right now is actually surpassing a lot of my childhood. It's been 3½ weeks since NC unless I'm really getting snowed (which i may be!). I feel I can hang in there a little longer. I feel like I've reached the end of my rope for the 4th time? I know it's pitiful, but it's my marriage.

I will go to the attorny's this week. I will start the process. I will tell my wife that she can either give 100% to her marriage and our family, and stop abusing alcohol, or the she can be on her way.

I want to talk to Dr. Harley to see if he has any insight.

Thanks for your encouragement.

No,

It's NOT pitiful! You are a MAN that is doing the best he can, and you have done so well.

I knew it, before you typed it by the way, that you would say "for the kids." Because I took the other off the table.

Don't rush to the atty's. I just wanted you to think. I mean really think..........

Take time for yourself to think. To consider.

Don't rush.

I want you to think.

You know that "for the kids" is bullcrap. What are YOU wanting here. That is what I am asking.

A wise man named AB3 on this board, asked me similar questions.

You need to know and come to grips with...as you are thinking...if you choose to do so, that:

1. YOU cannot save your wife; only she can do that.

2. Your wife cannot save herself.

You can only do what you can do to enable the above.

We spent all night talking. She stayed the night of the fight with the OM. She said this is the first contact since NC 3½ weeks ago. I pointed out to her that this is a man who takes a distraught, married, drunk, mother of three and has sex with her at the drop of a hat. So yes, False Recovery indeed.

I debated whether or not to tell her that I was going to file for divorce, and I know the good reasons why I shouldn't, but I told her anyway. I told her that nothing is going to change that. I told her what can change is how she fights to save her marriage. She sounds like she's hit bottom. Over and over I told her that I felt like we've been here before and that I fear this love and penitence will fade in a day or two. I said that I am not going to push her anymore, I can help if she asks, but she has to do the work. God I swear I've typed this at least twice before further back.

Her WORDS are the most convincing to date. She sounds like she's finally getting to the right mindset. I know they're just words but admittedly they give me hope. I told her that I've spent the last 2 months educating myself on how to save the marriage. She has not. She asked for suggestions and I suggested she start a thread here. We'll see if she does. I think the combination of 2x4s and support could either scare her away or finally be the source of some real help for her. She was reading and discussing 'Surviving the Affair' for awhile last night. Talked about her boundaries with men and her need for attention. She admitted that this was something she had to change.

It all comes down to this: Can she and will she help herself? I told her if she really wants to save the marriage she should be willing to fight for it even after the divorce goes through.

So there it is. I know I'm setting myself up for a fall once again, but I'm willing to do it this way. I'm ready to see it go either way. I want it to be salvaged. I have little faith that it can be, but I still have hope.

Great job Zen,

Sounds like you are listening to her, offering help (with a healthy dose of skepticism)and coming to grips with the fact:

that she is going to have to do this on her own

but with whatever help you are capable of giving

Said a prayer for you and your WW. You are a man with a tremendous amount of patience.

Whichever way this goes, be sure to print out this thread and save it.

You can be reminded how hard you worked to save your M.

Thanks SWW,

It's nice to hear some validation when wandering in this forest. Wife wants to do the worksheets in the books, this is good. Still totally unconvinced that this effort will last on her part, but hopeful.

I caught up on some of your thread... where are you now? Are you still in Plan B? Same goes for you as far as patience. I'm constantly afraid that my patience is just naiveté. I guess I'll know in the long run.

I'm very curious to hear what Dr. Harley has to say for me. I'm scheduling a session, ASAP.

Help me with this Zen? Your wife STAYED THE NIGHT OF THE FIGHT WITH THE OM? As in this week? WTF?

I'm feeling for your my friend. We both know she has issues, and alcohol being a major one...

But help me understand this...she was with the OM the other night? As in just a few nights ago?

Tell me I'm reading this wrong...

Oops,

wow DNU I missed that...

Spent the other night with the OM? I thought she was gonna get a cab home?

Zen, say it ain't so?

Nope, after I left her on the sidewalk, she called him up, he came and picked her up and she stayed at his house and they did the DEED.

Recovery erased.

I guess the fact that she was totally open about this gives me some hope, but it also gives me resolve to initiate the divorce. We won't be touching each other until new STD tests. Sigh.

I'm starting to feel kind of numb, but I will admit that her attitude seems to be in a better place than it's been. I think the big scrapes on her face are a good reminder of just how far she has gone. Says she doesn't like this person she's become. She just wants to be a wife and a mother. The proof is how she acts next week and next month and next year if we make it that far. I think I'll know when I've finally had enough.

I'm curious if withdrawal is going to restart again this time. She's not displaying the 'doubts' she has always expressed that this can be fixed. She just keeps asking me to let her try.

I'll let her try. That's what I want in the end, but I won't accept anything below the bar this time. She sounds like she's getting it. Hope I'm not making a mistake. I'll keep you posted.