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Although I would think that MB concepts like POJA may well help those situations, too.


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I never saw or read Joy Luck Club. I suppose POJA would be pretty critical, but I can't imagine how difficult it would be. It's hard enough between 2 people.

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Did you get the answer you were looking for?


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Interesting discussion. Someone pointed out that polygamous societies are exploitative of young women. They are also abusive to men - in that the powerful men amass collections of wives, which they end up treating as objects, and many non-powerful men end up unable to find a mate at all.

I had a co-worker once who was a Muslim convert. He explained to me the concept of polygamy in Islam, where the husband is (religiously) allowed up to four wives. According to him, Islamic law requires the husband to treat each wife the same. If he brings home flowers for one wife, he must bring home flowers for every wife. And, he is not supposed to feel more for one wife than for another.

This brings forth the interesting concept that even with multiple wives, if the husband has feelings of love for one wife that are stronger than his feelings for the other wives - he could be emotionally unfaithful to his other wives EVEN THOUGH it is all WITHIN the marriage.

One of the joys of monogamous marriage, to me, is being able to develop a strong and *deep* attachment to my wife. I find the concept of having to juggle affections between multiple wives to be one that would discourage the development of deep attachment with any of them.

I think, in general, that the very concept of romantic love almost requires a monogamous framework - either to support it (marriage as it should be) or to rebel against (the glamorised view of affairs).


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Very interesting indeed. There is some wisdom in this statement as well:
Originally Posted by CuthbertCalculus
I think, in general, that the very concept of romantic love almost requires a monogamous framework - either to support it (marriage as it should be) or to rebel against (the glamorised view of affairs).

It's also interesting that you raise this point:
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Interesting discussion. Someone pointed out that polygamous societies are exploitative of young women. They are also abusive to men - in that the powerful men amass collections of wives, which they end up treating as objects, and many non-powerful men end up unable to find a mate at all.
I read somewhere, though am unable to find it now, something about how many of the most violent countries have polygamous societies and they hypothesized that it could be due in part to mass sexual frustration among young men unable to find mates. I wish I could find it - I'm sure I've butchered the intent of the article with my pathetic memory.

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Originally Posted by Tabby1
It's also interesting that you raise this point:
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Interesting discussion. Someone pointed out that polygamous societies are exploitative of young women. They are also abusive to men - in that the powerful men amass collections of wives, which they end up treating as objects, and many non-powerful men end up unable to find a mate at all.
I read somewhere, though am unable to find it now, something about how many of the most violent countries have polygamous societies and they hypothesized that it could be due in part to mass sexual frustration among young men unable to find mates. I wish I could find it - I'm sure I've butchered the intent of the article with my pathetic memory.

One of the arguments they used to take the children away from that fundamentalist polygamous Mormon sect (in Texas? or was it Arizona?) a few years ago was that the boys were being conditioned to treat women as objects by the very nature of their society. Also, because the powerful men were monopolizing the women, that sect had the problem of young men with no chance of finding mates - and their solution was to expel them from the sect on trumped-up charges. These young teenaged boys are tossed out into the world with little education and the idea that they have lost any chance of eternal salvation - merely to allow the older, powerful men their choice of multiple women.

As far as the violence, I also expect to see that in the near future in countries like China. China has a "one child" policy, and because their culture puts a premium on boy children, girl infants are often left to die of exposure, so that the couple can try again for a boy. This means an entire generation is growing up with a very lopsided male-female ratio, and we can expect to see a huge number of young men in China with no possibility of finding mates. There will be a very destabilizing effect on that country in the very near future.


Last edited by CuthbertCalculus; 03/12/09 11:36 AM.

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That just ticks me off. How could people be so stupid, to think that polygamy is natural and good for society. Or even good for themselves? It certainly isn't good for the children.

Who cares if all four wives get flowers simultaneously? It is meaningless. As you say, he can not love fully one woman. And a woman who shares her man with many others, cannot love fully as well. I mean it is just so obvious.

Cuthbert, I never thought about the shortage of women angle and the monopoly.

You would think that China would see the value of girls for that reason alone. They could sell them. Oh yeah, they already do.

There was once a very interesting thread on GQ11 about how a man gets dulled by multiple SF partners (dulls the knife so to speak, in metaphor), he is lessened, deluted.

People who practice polygamy have become so lacking in spirituality, that they cannot see two feet in front of them. Perhaps this contributes to the violence of the society as well? Just feeding their own lack. Growing it.

And the women who participate, I don't know. They either have no choice, or they have been programmed by victimization, or by the cult they were raised in.

Did cavemen and women practice polygamy?

I believe one time a fellow Morman member said that polygamy was not what was intended in the Morman culture. It was a gross twisting of the original intent that protected widowed women and familes. A man would take care of other families other than his own if the man of the other family died, abandoned, etc.




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Originally Posted by weaves
That just ticks me off. How could people be so stupid, to think that polygamy is natural and good for society. Or even good for themselves? It certainly isn't good for the children.

Polygamy may indeed be "natural". But the "natural" state of man is probably barbarism. Look at hunter-gatherer tribes to see what "natural" society may be like. We've grown beyond that, and our advanced culture of today cannot survive, in my opinion, if polygamy is the norm.

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Who cares if all four wives get flowers simultaneously? It is meaningless. As you say, he can not love fully one woman. And a woman who shares her man with many others, cannot love fully as well. I mean it is just so obvious.

Well, my co-worker saw it that way as well, and even though his religion allowed him four wives, he had no personal desire to take advantage of it, even if it was legal.

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Cuthbert, I never thought about the shortage of women angle and the monopoly.

You would think that China would see the value of girls for that reason alone. They could sell them. Oh yeah, they already do.

Funny how that works - in so many traditional societies, a girl baby is a real liability, because the parents have to provide a dowry for them to marry. It would be more logical if it were the parents of the boy who had to provide a dowry.

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There was once a very interesting thread on GQ11 about how a man gets dulled by multiple SF partners (dulls the knife so to speak, in metaphor), he is lessened, deluted.

I would agree with that idea - although my agreement is not from personal experience! smile

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People who practice polygamy have become so lacking in spirituality, that they cannot see two feet in front of them. Perhaps this contributes to the violence of the society as well? Just feeding their own lack. Growing it.

My personal opinion is that women civilize men. A large cohort of men without the possibility of finding mates pretty much equates to a large cohort of barbarians. Conversely, I think the best way to judge how civilized a culture is - is by looking at how well women are treated, and how much of a voice women have in that society.

The whole idea that al Qaeda has of heaven - the whole "72 virgins" idea - is entirely carnal and not spiritual at all.

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And the women who participate, I don't know. They either have no choice, or they have been programmed by victimization, or by the cult they were raised in.

I guess you don't really question the ways of your society unless your society encourages free thought... or unless you see a more free society prospering beside yours.

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Did cavemen and women practice polygamy?

I'm sure they did. Tondor probably had both Lana and Kala as wives, leaving poor Atouk with no-one. We should be way past that now... smile

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I believe one time a fellow Morman member said that polygamy was not what was intended in the Morman culture. It was a gross twisting of the original intent that protected widowed women and familes. A man would take care of other families other than his own if the man of the other family died, abandoned, etc.


I read something about this just this morning. Orson Scott Card wrote about the HBO series "Big Love" on NationalReview.com, and he said the polygamist sects rejected the authority of the Mormon President who outlawed it - and thus, these polygamist sects have as much claim to be Mormon as Baptists have of being Catholic. I'm not Mormon, and had never really thought about it before, but the way he described it made a lot of sense.



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Interesting stuff. Some comments:
Originally Posted by CuthbertCalculus
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You would think that China would see the value of girls for that reason alone. They could sell them. Oh yeah, they already do.

Funny how that works - in so many traditional societies, a girl baby is a real liability, because the parents have to provide a dowry for them to marry. It would be more logical if it were the parents of the boy who had to provide a dowry.
This is a definite societal paradox, however, given the overpopulation problems China faces, fewer girls actually could address this (while creating a host of other problems).

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People who practice polygamy have become so lacking in spirituality, that they cannot see two feet in front of them. Perhaps this contributes to the violence of the society as well? Just feeding their own lack. Growing it.

My personal opinion is that women civilize men. A large cohort of men without the possibility of finding mates pretty much equates to a large cohort of barbarians. Conversely, I think the best way to judge how civilized a culture is - is by looking at how well women are treated, and how much of a voice women have in that society.
Interesting perspective. I would also argue that the test of a man is how he treats women - basically a variation of the same theme.
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The whole idea that al Qaeda has of heaven - the whole "72 virgins" idea - is entirely carnal and not spiritual at all.
As just stated above, what does it say about a man that desires 72 virgins?

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And the women who participate, I don't know. They either have no choice, or they have been programmed by victimization, or by the cult they were raised in.

I guess you don't really question the ways of your society unless your society encourages free thought... or unless you see a more free society prospering beside yours.

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Did cavemen and women practice polygamy?

I'm sure they did. Tondor probably had both Lana and Kala as wives, leaving poor Atouk with no-one. We should be way past that now... smile
Marriage performs a different function in many societies.

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I believe one time a fellow Morman member said that polygamy was not what was intended in the Morman culture. It was a gross twisting of the original intent that protected widowed women and familes. A man would take care of other families other than his own if the man of the other family died, abandoned, etc.


I read something about this just this morning. Orson Scott Card wrote about the HBO series "Big Love" on NationalReview.com, and he said the polygamist sects rejected the authority of the Mormon President who outlawed it - and thus, these polygamist sects have as much claim to be Mormon as Baptists have of being Catholic. I'm not Mormon, and had never really thought about it before, but the way he described it made a lot of sense.
It's worth noting that many important characters in the Old Testement practiced polygamy.

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Originally Posted by Tabby1
This is a definite societal paradox, however, given the overpopulation problems China faces, fewer girls actually could address this (while creating a host of other problems).


Personally, I think overpopulation is not a real problem, but rather the result of gloom and doom demographic forecasts from the 60s. People like Paul Erhlich predicted that we would see massive famines and death from overpopulation... in the 1980s. Instead, we had a revolution in agriculture in the 1970s that made it possible to feed more and more people by cultivating smaller patches of land.

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My personal opinion is that women civilize men.

Interesting perspective. I would also argue that the test of a man is how he treats women - basically a variation of the same theme.


That's a great point! And, in fact, I've read that the single best predictor of how happy a marriage is - is by looking at how open the husband is to his wife's influence.

(That's us, btw - I am *very* open to my wife's influence nowadays, and she has never steered me wrong!) smile

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As just stated above, what does it say about a man that desires 72 virgins?


Yeah, exactly...

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It's worth noting that many important characters in the Old Testement practiced polygamy.

I have a theory about that - I don't believe romantic love as we know it really existed back then in the time of the patriarchs. I think that was something that had to be developed over time... that you saw the beginnings of it perhaps with the Song of Solomon, but that it wasn't fully developed until the troubadours of medieval Provencal. smile

This has been an interesting discussion...


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