ZW,

I have a thread for you to read SKM's Chronicles . She and I posted a long time ago. As it turned out I had the opportunity to meet both she and her H along with other folks from this site many years ago. To the best of my knowledge they are still happily married. I do beleive that her thread will offer some insight into a possible time line.

I think it will help you understand this is a marathon not a sprint. So calm down, work on your changes, and love her. You don't understand this yet, but you will KNOW when/if it is time to leave. The fact that you are so unsure is very normal.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

JL, YES, she is more like a guy and I am sometimes more like a woman in our emotional expressions. It's been a long-running joke/understanding for us, but sometimes creates difficulty for me.

I know I need to just hang in there. I feel like she's really trying right now, and I know that I won't know the true direction for a long time. Knowing is one thing. Living it is another. It's pretty hard when you've reached your absolute end point to come back. I spent so much of myself trying to save it just to have it fall apart again over and over. Still, I love her very much and I want this to work more than anything. I think I'll get going here again as time goes by. It's been a really hard pull and I have needed some release from all the emotional control Plan A requires. She's been very good at helping me through those times lately and it does give me hope. Thanks for your advice and I'll read up on that thread. I'll check out that book as well.

Yes, I understand...my wife is more like a guy (doctor, loves sports, not great at expressing her emotions / feelings), but so am I (sports, outdoors, trucks, not great at expressing my feelings / emotions) but I've also worked in predominantly female domainated professions.

It's hard because so many people see men and women at face value. And try to put the round peg in square hole. Thanks JL, I'll read that post also.

Zen, hang in there buddy. Be strong.

DNU1,

Yes, I really need to be careful about shutting my wife down on things like this. Me not respecting her opinion has been a very bad LB in the past, one of my worst.

Same things for us: Let's move to another state. I want another tattoo. Let's have a baby. We need another cat. Let's get a dog. Let's buy an SUV. I could go on and on. For me they often seem so out of the question, so contrary to our plans that I'm amazed she's voicing them. Then I say something about it and she says she's just rambling. But then half the time she's not. The trick is to make sure I'm focusing on OUR plans, not MY plans. I dunno, that will be one we need to learn to work through. I am trying to just listen right now. I know this is where POJA comes in because the temptation is to just give in, which breeds resentment. How the heck do you POJA getting a dog?

The dog thing can be easy to work through. Just google search what it takes to raies a dog -- all the vet bills, the food, the supplies, etc. And when you first bring them home they wake up every 1.5 hours to pee. Who's going to take that little guy out for bathroom? If you are going to POJA this then she has to take 50% of responsibility of taking care of the little guy.

And then comes training. This is my second Lab. First one was well trained and hunted with me. He learned obedience from Day #1! And so is this dog. It takes probably 2-3 years for your dog to be well trained in obedience...then the hunting training really starts. Granted, not everyone wants a dog for hunting, but if you get a dog you are doing it and your family a disservice if you don't give it good obedience training.

It's a LOT of work.

Of course she probably just wants a little lap dog that she will believe needs no training. But believe me, all dogs need to be home-trained. You don't want that little bugger peeing in your house, or tearing up the place. Not much worse than an unruly dog in the home. And NOT good for little kids with an untrained dog.

Got our pooch 2 years before the kiddos came. He was great dog and they could lay on him, pull his ears, take his food away, and he just sat there. Wouldn't even eat their food -- unless they told him "okay..." then it was game on.

Talk to her.

Listen to her suggestions. Don't try to argue with her, just listen to her demands and nod, saying "I understand..." If you shut her down immediately she will get resentful. Listen and listen more. Take in to consideration what she's saying.

Then ask to revisit the conversation at later date...and don't blow it off. At later date say "I've been thinking about Y and here are my thoughts." And keep the conversation open. Keep talking about things until you find a joint resolution.

I read SKM's thread. It's daunting for me right now, but it seems like a good window as to what to expect. Thanks JL! Thanks for taking the time to post such thoughtful responses for both of us.

For the last week my wife has been exemplary with her attitude. I have been amazed she's kept it up. She's having kind of a tough day today... I think she's discouraged at some of the responses she gets on the thread (I've stopped reading it - she said she's sorry she doesn't act like a typical woman and cry all the time). She's depressed at losing her job which was a source of great pride and gratification for her, and we will have some tough times ahead financially. On top of it, our kids are sick and very whiney at home today.

She was a little grumpy with me today, but overall still asking how I'm doing, still hanging in there. I'm trying to be encouraging for her too.

Just wanted to drop in and say hello. Glad to see you and coho are still working so very hard.

Zen,

I asked Flick about the brown trout questions you asked on my thread. He said the best places are either the top of the Hutt Valley River, or any stream, river and lake in Taupo. In the Taupo area, you might be lucky enought to catch a rainbow trout, but they are kind of scarce.

Farming is a great lifestyle but sharemilking is statistically hard on marriage in NZ and we are no longer prepaired to make the time commitment to it needed. We do want to stay in the industry tho so are looking at other avenues.

Your going to hate thsi as much as I did (and still do) but really its all about TIME. Time for you to heal, time for Coho to de fog. Flick has been a great FWH yet its only in the last 2 months that I have really seen the 'old' Flick on a regular basis. It is said around here that it takes up to 2 years. Coho is trying, they are alot of good people helping her, just worry about your end.

so, sorry if its been asked already but... what is her top EN and how does she most want you to fill it?

ZW,

Just remember not all of the problems in your life, her life, and your families life are tied to her affair. I know it is hard to separate, but when she is down, the kids are sick, and yes YOU are feeling down, just go over and give her a hug and a kiss on the cheek. Let her know you are there. You are hurting but if she really is in withdrawal and really trying trust me she is going to hurt more than you in the long run.

Even if you decided to divorce and leave her, you will not regret being kind and supportive. I know the popular saying is "no good deed goes unpunished", but most good deeds you do are good for you.

Don't let SKM's post depress you, you are seeing HER battle, not her H's. He is/was a very good guy and did not deserve what she did to him. But, he did deserve the wife she became.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Zen,

I hear tell that you guys are interested in entomology. Welcome to the nerd club. I love to photograph the critters over here.

I am confused about her thinking that you deserve better. Can you encourage her there.

Thanks everyone for your support and thoughts. It truly warms my heart to know we have you pushing for us.

Like I said, Coho had a rough day yesterday. Something I'm seeing that I haven't seen in her often - she typically has a pretty short fuse and I have always walked on eggshells around her when she's feeling grumpy. I think she's making a concerted effort to be careful with others' feelings right now, especially mine. She made a delicious dinner with her 14 year old son and I think it cheered her up. After dinner her mood lightened as she hung out with the kids. Told me she needed a break from the forum to think. I was probably comforting her more yesterday and she commented that I shouldn't be comforting her. I said, "I'm your husband." She suggested that we head out on an impromptu date and I agreed! We went to a really cute place where a band was playing some WWII era jazz and just chatted and watched the dancers and took in the music. She had a little more to drink than me and brought up an ancient resentment in our marriage, which totally took the wind out of my sails. Not only did it hurt because I think she's been concentrating on everything WRONG with the marriage instead of the overwhelmingly GOOD things, but it really killed a great evening. She tried to cheer me up, and it took awhile, but we pulled it together again eventually. All and all a very good evening with some fun bedroom action to cap the evening. She still manages to say the worst things when she's drinking. I wish she could see this.

Yes, I'm starting to feel I can commit more to us. I don't mind comforting her. I know this is very hard for her. I love her as my wife and as a friend and as a human. I'm so glad she is still trying and still committed.

As far as her not being good enough? I'll do everything I can to help her with this. She's always been good enough for me... She used to say she wasn't at the beginning of our relationship. I think this is an issue she needs to work through. I just hope she can separate good enough, as in equals, as opposed to that false hubris that she relies on which is extremely hurtful to me. I'm not reading her thread anymore, so not sure exactly what you're referring to, but she did comment that she posed the question: "wouldn't it just be easier for the BS to divorce so they don't have to be with the person who caused them so much pain?" I said that I don't think life works that way - you don't run away from pain. Marriage doesn't work that way either. I have to believe that we can get through this and be stronger in the end, otherwise, what's the point?

To be clear about the insect hobby... This has been a long running interest of mine (on my list of 1000 things I don’t have enough time to pursue). I studied it in college as well. Coho is not fond of insects. She has always done of very good job of humoring me especially around the kids.

Here's an interesting illustration of a trigger. When she first came back in one of the false recoveries, she said, "I DO NOT like insects." I think she was asserting that she was putting her foot down, she would never like them even for my sake. OK, perfectly reasonable. As a BS, I couldn't help thinking that this is just one of the many things she concentrated on as a way to separate herself from me when she was planning to leave me. So now it's a trigger. I can list many many things like this already and I don't think she has any idea. Any mention of the many places she's been without me... all the different bars and experiences at bars... restaurants... even pop culture references or sports references... The city we live in just voted to bring in professional soccer. She made a comment about it the other day. On the OMs Facebook page, which I look at periodically, he has done nothing but whine about professional soccer coming to our city. So what is my immediate thought? She's been on his page too. There's nothing to stop her. Of course I have no way of knowing. It's just scary how many triggers there are right now. They're everywhere and I don't know to what extent I need to express that to Coho.

As to the farming issue - yeah it was a semi-real dream for awhile, but it's kinda faded. She seems totally uninterested in a lot of that kind of stuff right now. She had completely buried herself in her new job in the previous months and any domestic or family related things just didn't seem important. Now I have no idea what she wants.

Her top emotional needs are Admiration, Affection, Sexual Fullfillment, Family Support... I'm forgetting the 5th. Almost the same ones and same order as mine, interestingly.

The question of how to meet her need for Admiration... I think it's just trusting her opinion, expressing admiration for her strengths, letting her have her way more, treating her as and EQUAL. I have not always done a good job with this. I think it's my greatest short-coming as a husband.

I've always complimented her looks, her hard work, her mothering, her character strengths... so I think it's none of these things in particular. We're both pretty proud people in our own ways and I think she just wants me to see her as an equal, and though I have never intended otherwise, she doesn't feel that way.

ZW,

During withdrawal, they tend to focus on the negative, because to focus on the positive hurts alot. I mean they had to have a "good" reason to hurt everyone so, and violate their own morals and ethics, right? I know...WRONG!!!!

hang in there, and do hug her and let her hug you. If there is one thing that is really hard for people to do, it is to accept gifts, much harder than giving them. She is going to have a hard time accepting your love and your gift of effort and forgiveness. Oddly, you will find out she will even have a harder time accepting her own forgiveness. Another problem for another day right now. But, it is coming

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL! I'm not finding it difficult to love her and express love for her lately. She's doing an amazing job all considering I think.

This is weird, but I think losing her job has been a real help for us in this episode. It's given her some time to slow down and work on us more. Of course the flipside is that it will create some financial hurdles pretty quickly and I can't help thinking that was one of the things that contributed to her affair. She's so hardworking, I have no doubt she'll find something again shortly despite our VERY high unemployment rate here.

She seems very fearful of my inability to forgive. It's funny, because I KNOW I'm capable of forgiveness given the right direction for our marriage... well regardless I will have to forgive. I'm far more worried about her ability to really inact the changes she needs to avoid this level of disillusionment and the choices she made. My greatest fear is that we will have gone through this and in five years when she's feeling down and frustrated again, it'll happen again. I can only hope that 'affair-proofing' our marriage is something we can truly achieve.

Thanks Roogirl for your support. I'll catch up on your thread today...

To quote someone when I asked a similar question... have you asked her?

Anyway, Ad is my #5 so I have some ideas of how it can be filled. I like to be admired for my intellegence, sense of humour, educational accomplishments, apperance, meals I cook, cleaning I do, mothering skills, when I show care for others..... lots of mostly girlie things.
Ad is Flicks #5 as well. Like you and Coho our ENs ar almost the same, we just have different 1 & 2. Anyway he likes to be admired for knowing how to do 'stuff' like fixing appliences, electrical work, mechanical work, building kites, reading circuit diagrams, some 'married stuff' apperance, computer stuff.... all very man stuff as far as I can tell. I know this because I asked, and I keep on asking. I have a list that I refer to when I cant think of anything, and I add to it as new things occur to me.

Don't think that just because she doesnt respiond to a Ad, that it isnt what she wants to hear. She will miss it if you stopped.

Man she has to see that you have taken shot after shot from her and her behavior and yet you still are here, still love her, and still are trying to save the marriage. If you were not capable of forgiving this, you would have walk away earlier!!

Lildoggie,

Ha, yes, I should probably ask! My answer was mostly generated off things she's said.

It's easy for me to admire her, she's pretty amazing. Part of the problem is that I think any effort I might have been making fell on deaf ears after awhile. As an example, when she went back to work after working at home as a daycare provider. This was our solution to her staying home with kids while still bringing in some income. It was incredibly draining work and she just about lost her mind while doing an amazing job. I continually expressed concern about this, I continually told her she was doing an amazing job. Finally the lack of income and her sanity led her to finding a new job back in the corporate world. I was sad that she couldn't stay home but RELIEVED that she was going to be less stressed. I told her this several times. All she remembers is that I didn't want her to go back to work that it was only my idea that she stay home. I think when someone has become the focus of your unhappiness, they can do nothing right. That's how I feel right now in regards to our marriage. It's tough because some of her complaints are totally valid. But I also think I was an excellent husband in so many ways. I am just not going to let the marriage be blamed for the affair. I think we BOTH neglected the marriage in the name of kids and life, but it certainly wasn't a dead marriage. Not trying to absolve myself of my half of the responsibility, I'm just trying to wrap my head around her focus on the negative.

From her EN questionnaire, you'd think we were peachy-keen. She hardly registers a complaint. I THINK this is a recognition of the work I've been doing to change my behavior, but really not sure. I filled out the EN right after she came back last time and I had to do two answers: How I feel pre-affair and post. They were starkly different.

JL, this is very true of my wife:

"If there is one thing that is really hard for people to do, it is to accept gifts, much harder than giving them."

She's very generous and giving, but HATES asking for favors.

According to Flicks LBQ and ENQ my only fault lay in not spending enought time with him.

Even now its the one thing guarenteed to raise his hackles... even just the thought I will not do something with him.

Strangly, my LBQ says he's a right royal ratbag. Yet he's the FWS. Go figure.