I realise divorce arrangements take priority over boundary patrol just now, but have to say I don't agree with this:


Sounds like you didn't have many AOs at your W/STBXW. Good for you. But...

1) I don't think you managed HER anger at all well. She used it to rule your M.

2) You didn't do anything positive with YOUR anger. Venting here to the point of being banned isn't positive.

3) Poor Justuss worked overtime censoring your and others' posts last time. I've never seen so much censoring. Your thread attracted anger. Why?

That energy, from your anger, should have gone into identifying and calmly and respectfully enforcing your boundaries with your W ("I will not be shouted at or spoken to with disrespect. I will not remain in a marriage where my W's intimate needs are met by another man. I will not tolerate contact between my W and OM.")

At least those are boundaries I'd have had.

Boundary failure (IMO) could be the reason your marriage failed, if it does fail, and judging by your glib reply ("Thanks for the replies everyone!"), it seems to me you either don't get this or don't agree with it.

If you don't deal with this I predict you'll be back here in another five years, back of hand on forehead, saying much the same things.

She trampled all over you. Nasty.

You let her. What would you call that?

FWIW I think you're doing the right things now, and I agree with what Mel is saying. Good luck.

Mels right Dalton. You need to start writing down your daily schedule, from the time you wake until the time you go to sleep. You need to be able to show the courts that you are the primary care giver. You need to point out how stable you are. Do not alert your wife to anything until you have all your ducks in a row. YOU HAVE TO THINK BEFORE YOU ACT.

If I may make a suggestion read PSUBIKER's thread from beginning to end. You need to be smart like him. You need to be two steps ahead of her at all times. She could do some dastardly stuff to you. YOU NEED TO START RECORDING YOUR CONVERSATIONS WITH HER. Use a voice activated recorder. Put 1 in your kitchen, 1 in your bedroom, and carry another one on you. Two reasons. You need a record of what is said for your protection. The second is. You need to record your conversations so that you will keep your own tongue in check. If you read PSUBIKER you will see why you need to do this. His skanky wife called the cops on him and lied so that he was thrown off of his own property so her POSOM lover could move in. When she knows that you are divorcing her the gloves will come off. You want the kids, the house, and child support from her.

Day not going as planned. Planned on contacting an attorney.

Sent wife a text. Telling her I wanted all the details of her affair. Or she would be moving out.

She's started to give me details. In my mind there's more.
We went round and round on the phone (an 1 1/2 hours). She's not given much more than what she already said.


So I guess tonight will be a bad one. I'll have to ask her to leave without getting the kids in the middle of a war.

DaltonDad,

Don't I remember you from before? I think we posted to one another at an earlier time, am I right?

I think you are not listening to Mel and you really should be. She is giving you great advice although advice that will not be much fun to execute. You don't argue with your W. You don't interrogate her. You simply go file for divorce and tell her until something changes to convince you that she could be honest with herself and with you, and shows that she actually is ready to be a mother and a W, you want out.

She has failed on all levels and you still want to debate her about her behavior. She has been a lousy human being, a lousy mother, and a worse W. Until she recognizes this and decides to change, you are exposing your children to the worst possible role model and you are wasting your time discussing anything with her.

Please listen to Mel.

God Bless,

JL

Bingo! thank you for saying it better than I could have, JL!

DD, you are giving her power again. She is not in power. The plan in play is YOUR PLAN. The drunk has to get off the boat, not drive it.

PLAN DD [for DaltonsDad] is to file for divorce and make plans to move on. It is not to argue with an abusive drunk. It will TAKE A LOT to get you to change your course of action. And EMPTY TALK WILL NOT SUFFICE.

File for D, then hand her what looks like a plan of recovery and tell her that if you see a demonstrated PLAN OF ACTION on her part over a long period of time, you may consider reconcilation. BUT IT IS ALL IN HER COURT. You don't nag, beg, plead. You are MOVING ON. The train only stops for her if and when she DEMONSTRATES VIA ACTIONS a dramatic personal change.

GO FILE, DD!

Doing what Mel suggests may take cajones that Dalton's Dad just doesn't have. Honestly, this situation should be a no-brainer even for those BSes who cling to hope long past the point that there is any reason to hope.

DD, I think you need to ask yourself why you are willing to accept so little from your WW. Doing what you did today, by texting your wife, is just a subconscious (or maybe conscious) delay tactic so you can put off the hard decisions. It is literally the definition of insanity to expect that she will respond to you differently than she has on any of the previous occasions. Where is your self-respect that you would let this woman run roughshod all over you for this long?

Please, do as Mel suggests. File for divorce immediately to give yourself a chance to find a real woman. Get yourself into some therapy and come up with a list of requirements for any woman you have a relationship and set the bar so high for WW that she'd have to become an Olympian to get over it. You are wasting your time and energy on this woman at this point.

Mels right. Don't even discuss it with her. Get up tomorrow and go see a lawyer.

Asked WW to leave monday night. She did. Spoken to her twice since then. Haven't had much to say.
Going through rotten depression (again). Same pain. same feelings and emotions.
Hard to keep putting on the clown face for the kids.

Want to do as Mel suggested and give her conditions.
Just don't want to bother.

Sat down a read a lot the past few days. Doesn't do much good. A one sided recovery leds to a one sided marriage.

DD,

Ok, let me lay out for you what I think of your situation and then what steps you might take to address it.

1. Get more sleep. Your schedule with the kids and all is a back breaker. You have essentially been a single parent for a long time and it is wearing you down. Take some vacation time and take the kids somewhere you enjoy, or better yet see if your family can take them for a day and go do something...anything.

2. You need to tell her parents about this affair, the abortion, her past affair and why you want her out. Why? They will be your children's grandparents for their lifetime. They need to know the truth so that they properly treat your children and that means NOT making you the bad guy in this. You need to call them, tell them you have separated, probably will divorce, but would love to have them in your children's life. They then need to know the reasons for the divorce and why YOU need help.

3. Get with a good lawyer and go for custody. It will wake your WW up, but it is only right as you are the major caregiver in this family.

4. Go to a Doc and get anti-D's. Her affair will/has depressed you, but you have children and a divorce to fight and you need to be at the top of your game for this. Get HELP!!!!

5. Please realize that what you are dealing with is a failure on the part of your W. I won't go into the abortion issue, but that clearly is huge and I would bet will become larger for your W as years go by. Secondly, she flirted for months with this guy and this was no accident even if she "accidently" fell on his organ ONCE!

6. You need to remember and know that you are a good guy carrying a heavy load, and you have done it well. You did not fail this marriage...she did multiple times.

I have more to say, but get to a lawyer and a doctor get yourself at "the top of your game". The folks here are clearly cheering for you.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL.

Can't guarantee how much of your advice I can follow. But I will try.
More sleep...I'll work on that one.
I can't do the exposure thing. I know...been through this discussion before. TO me it's about humiliation and revenge. I understand that it's about showing the light of day to lies and secrets.

In good time I'll see a lawyer. I've not filled for divorce yet. I want to be in a less emotional place before I do that.

Not going to mess with the anti-d's, again They really bothered me last time.

I know and understand, despite the blame that has already flown my way this isn't my fault. I don't blame myself.

What I'm trying to do is keep life normal-ish for my kids. Not slough them off someplace. Normal dinners, normal nights, normal fun. Keep them from any of the hurt.
Sadly no matter what my actions, I will be the bad guy.

And for me, just keep busy. Amazing the house work you get done after an event like this! That and keep my eyes off the bottle of vodka in the freezer LOL.

DD,

The exposure to your in-laws is about your children. Your in-laws need to know the truth so that they can speak the truth. Further, your children will not be subjected you diatribes by in-laws about you, if they know the truth. You see no matter what you do, even if you get full custody which should happen, they will be those kids relatives and they should be informed relatives.

You also need to be talking to your children in age appropriate manner so that they are prepared for what is coming into their lives. It really is already in their lives but they will need perhaps counseling but surely time to adjust to the changes. I would strongly encourage you to seek a counselor out and discuss how to explain things to your children that doesn't make your W the enemy but lets them know what she has done is very very bad behavior.

DD, this isn't about you any longer, it really is not. It is now simply about your children and I believe forewarned is forearmed. They need information, but only information they can handle. They will handle the sadness, but they will have a harder time handling the lies, and you pretending all is great is a LIE!!!

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

can I vent?

I never feel I can do the right thing here. My own way of handling things may not be right. But I always feel no matter what I do it's always wrong.

My gut tells me one thing, ya'll another.

That on top of all this other stuff.

I could just swear a lot and get myself banned again (actually I thought I was banned this whole week).
But being I don't have a support network like many other people. I'm stuck.
I'm estranged from my family because of last time and exposing WW to my family. They refused to talk to me because I tried to stick it out and make the marriage work.
The nature of my life is such I've never had many friends. And those have drifted away.
What I have is my family. And as it seems I hardly have that.

I really did fight last time to save things. May not have been scripted as Mel, JL, et al wanted but it was what I could manage.
Maybe I'm too wishy-washy. Don't seem like I want to stand up for myself. Odds are you couldn't pick me out of a crowd.

I'm feeling pretty alone. One of things that sucks most about this whole thing. I hate being alone.
I for one crave the attention WW went elsewhere to get, and have been for a very long time.
I hate to be selfish. I always take care of me last. And now I'm left with nothing.
Don't admonish me for leaving my kids out of that. They are the only light in my life now. And yes when I feel right about it, I'll talk to them. Not LIE to them. But I can't do that now. My own pain it too great to lay any of this on them just yet.

Done venting....

((((((DaltonDad))))))

You are not alone.

i was like that for awhile DD

i recommend reading a book called "no more mr nice guy"

there is life after divorce

sitting on the fence wishing things will get better won't get you there though... the word boundaries is very important for you right now... don't cave in every time she bats her eyes. file for divorce, get custody, do some healing, figure out why this happened to you, figure out what kind of woman you want and the rest will fall in place

it's a long [censored] road... especially the first year or two. but trust me there is light at the end of the tunnel

Dalton Dad... I don't know if you remember or not, but I was one that posted to you before this second round. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. The issues you are facing today are twofold...problems your wife is creating, and problems you are creating for yourself.

On the problems your W is creating there is little you can do. You cannot dictate her behaviors or chain her to your house. You have tried to influence her through Plan A (to an extent) and tried to pursue a recovered marriage. It is obvious there's still an elephant in the living room.

The problems you are creating for yourself are in large part due to your inability to take action. The emotional impact of your W cheating again and not investing in your marriage have left you unable to act, or even react. This is your biggest hurdle.

Taking action will empower you. All of us BS know the depths of angst you are enduring. Betrayal saps the life out of you. You become depressed, sleep deprived and your self esteem bottoms out. There comes a time when you must come to terms with the fact that life is dealing you a sh!tstorm and the only way out is to begin to take positive steps to dig out. One day at a time.

Right now you are wallowing in your own pity. But even though you don't have anyone in your life to lean on, you do have a circle of people offering you some very good advice. I liken your situation to one complaining of drowning in a pool when surrounded by a number of people with life jackets. People are offering help and you are frozen and unable to act.

What would you do if you weren't afraid? What are you afraid of? What do you expect to change if you do nothing?

You have been offered some excellent advice. Top notch. Now it's up to you. What do you want?

Personally, if I were in your shoes, I'd stick with Melody's advice, file for divorce, inform your WW what it would take for you to stop the proceedings and work on your marriage.

Otherwise, man, get on with your life! Life is too short to spend your days with your guts in a knot. If your WW is not able to get on board with any attempt to save your marriage, let her go. It will be her loss. Even if she does return, you have no assurance this won't repeat itself again. Do you really want to spend the next 2 1/2-5 years trying to recover a marriage this badly damaged?

It's time for you to picture what the gold "prize" looks like in your future and begin taking the necessary ACTIONS to focus on achieving that goal.

Please understand that my intent is not to "pick on" you, but rather to prompt you to making decisions to better your situation. Grab some of the lifejackets offered to you and pull yourself to a safer place!

Best wishes,
SD

Hi DD,

You booted her, even though it kills you. I would not call you wishy washy. To love someone in spite their betrayals, well that's called being Christ like. But you got through it. sometimes all you have is doing whats right, even if you are falling apart inside. If they seem a little tough on you, it is only because they sympathize with you. Look at it like your family. I am sure they didn't want to hurt you, but their sense of justice outweighed their compassion. It happens here to.

Look at me. They purged every post I had on cohosalmons thread. Because after weeks and weeks of reading what ZEN WOLF was going through, I flamed her. I was wrong, and am still not optimistic by her seeming lack of contrition and her dispassionate posts. I actually thought they booted me from the site. Nope just my posts on her thread.

May I suggest something. Your estranged family, call them, you may get an I told you so. And you might even deserve it. But I think that they will reach out to you. Having us here on this board is nice and it is comforting to have people who can sympathize with you. But sometimes you need somebody with skin on to hug.

I can totally identify with you. You have poured your life into your family as I have into mine. Literally to the exclusion of other relationships. You have not been able to cultivate them because you have been raising them by yourself. I was luckier then you. my wife is wonderful. She may not think that I walk on water but she certainly thinks I float on top of it. You need to get the meds from the doctor if you haven't. I don't think its good for your kids, you bottling up your emotions while they're around. the meds will take the edge off and help you sleep.

You will make it through this. Right now its putting one foot in front of the other, and just making it through the day.

I will reiterate what I said about documentation. In court the one with the most documentation wins. When they get her on the stand and ask her, when was the last time your sons went to the doctor? When was the last time you helped them with their homework? What is their favorite bedtime story?
These are the questions that will shine a light on the real parent. You will get custody. But you want CS as well. YOU HAVE TO TAKE SOME TIME FOR YOURSELF. START EXERCISING. GO FOR WALKS. IF YOU DO NOT GET ACTIVE. YOUR BOYS WILL SUFFER. BIKE RIDES. JOIN A GYM. LEARN TO HAVE A LIFE OUTSIDE OF YOUR FAMILY, IT WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER FATHER. A HAPPIER ONE. TALK TO YOUR WIFE ABOUT KIDS AND FINANCES ONLY. WE'RE ALL BEHIND YOU.

DD,

Decades ago, when I was in college and playing football I had a coach really yelling at me because I did not react fast enough to a play. I mean he was chewing my a$$ big time. Finally, in great frustration he yelled at me

I have remembered that quote for the rest of my life. Why? Well, my father used to yell at me when I played football and basketball in HS that I was not aggressive enough. He really got on me after one game we won by 30. I had made 12 solo tackles, 4 sacks, blocked a punt, etc. and he is yelling at me because I was not "aggressive" enough.

Years later I figured out what he was saying or trying to say and what my college coach was trying to say. It was not that I was not physical enough, it was that I was not mentally aggressive enough. When I had that big night in HS, I easily overmatched the guys across the line from me. I went where I wanted and did what I wanted, but I was not antcipating what would happen because I did not have to.

While in college I had the opportunity to tour a parapsychology lab at Duke University. It was facinating. They had devised all sorts of experiments to see if they could quantify the paranormal. And in fact that found that some people could accomplish some of these experiments although not consistently, hence it was not a science. No repeatability. They even devised an experiment actually two experiments to test what was call telekinesis, mind controlling matter. One had to do with tumbling dice and actually there was some evidence of possible control. The other was a straw lying across two knife edges inside of a large bell jar. They had never found a soul that could move that straw. Their conclusion, to the extent that the mind had any control over things, there already needed to be energy present (actually motion). That observation has over 40 years coupled with the statements I made before dominated my life.

It has dominated it as a scientist, as a husband, as a father, as volunteer, as committee member, as chairs of committees. And most definitely as a leader.

If you don't bring energy to something, you can change nothing. I learned how to bring energy to my marriage on this site. I have found that when I run things my main job is to bring energy, and yes "doing something wrong right" is better than doing nothing. Why? Because as one does something wrong, the situation begins to change and as it changes you now have another chance to get it right.

So why am I laying all of this on you? It is not because you are bad, pathetic, weak, spineless. Nope, it is because you have shown great strength in the past and even now. It is because you, whether you see it or not, can change your life, that of your children and perhaps even save your marriage, BUT... it is going to take you providing the energy. I fully understand you don't have the energy to fight YET AGAIN for this marriage. Therefore the only way to provide energy is to start to leave it. It is the right thing to do or the wrong thing? At this point it makes little difference, it is the ONLY THING YOU CAN DO.

Do you call your folks and get a "I told you so"? Yes I think you do. Because that call puts energy into the relationship you and your family have allowed to go dormant. Where there is energy there is change and young man, your situation needs to change on many many levels.

DD, don't fear change, fear staying where you are. You children are going to change, you situation won't unless you provide the energy.

I know you are tired and disheartened. I know you wish that somehow all of the future uncertainty and perhaps pain could be avoided, but it is coming your way whether or not you do something, but if you put energy into the situation, you have a chance to have things work out better.

You see DD, you may not have friends, but you do have folks that care. We do care and we want to see you and your family prosper. But, you MUST provide the energy, even if you feel you have none.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
As always, a truely excellent post. My situation improves every day and I still always learn something from your words. I hope DD is able to take this to heart and find just a little more strength to keep going and inject that energy into his family.

DD, I promise if you go to your parents/family and tell them what's happened, tell them they were right but you just couldn't bear to lose her, but now know you have to, for the kids' sakes, and ASK them to help you get through it, they will help you. It is always harder in your mind than in real life. I guarantee, they are just waiting for you to come to them and ask for help.

DaltonDad,

The idea that people cheat because they are not getting their emotional needs met is a lie. The cheat because they are dishonest and selfish people. Their needs come before yours. They don't care if they crush your spirit. They don't care if they destroy the lives of their children. It's all about them and their needs.

You made the same mistake I made when I found my wife (fiance at the time) in an emotional affair before we got married. I forgave her. That was a mistake. Fast forward to 3 years into our marriage and I caught her doing it again. What did I do? You guessed it, I forgave her. I mean she cried tears and seemed so sorry so she must really be sorry right? Wrong and it doesnt matter. Her actions reflect her character--selfish and dishonest--and character doesn't easily change. A leopard cannot change his spots.

So, after I caught my wife going out to night clubs and DATING someone else I had finally had enough and gave her the boot.

If you had given your wife the boot the first time you would be better off today. I'm also tempted to take my wife back. It's just so much easier to take her back and try to pretend it never happened. But investing more time and energy in someone who has proven themselves to be dishonest and selfish is a waste of your life. And think about it? She didn't even have the common decency to use protection! I'm sorry to say this, but that's pretty trashy behavior. It's really disgusting. It would be madness to stay.

Things may seem bleak now but in every tragedy there is opportunity. And for you there is an opportunity to find someone who will love you with the same sincerity and selflessness that you love. Imagine what it will feel like to have that?

You were a good husband and father. You can walk away feeling good about what you did in this marriage. And some beautiful children came of it. It was not all for nothing. But now it's time to move on and find real love.

Someone told me long ago about my marriage, "You stay in this marriage because you don't know what it's like to be truly loved by a woman." And he was right.

Just think about this as an opportunity to finally have a true life partner.