How does this happen? I have some ideas on how this works with different people, but I'd like to know what happened in your case if you don't mind.

Were your defenses down?
My FWH followed EP's by instinct for most of our M, but due to many factors his defenses weren't as strong when OW came along. They worked together and their A started with the whole office between them, not behind closed doors. She noticed he was having a bad day, and did everything in her power to make him smile. That made huge deposits into his bank. With defenses down from everything that was going on with us and him, she was able to walk right in without too much effort.

Were there exceptions in your EP's? Were they not strong enough?
Did you stop yourself from talking to some men, but not others because they weren't a threat. At least you didn't think so at the time. I wonder if EP's are kind of like EN's. I can meet Skald's EN's "okay" and not be enough, or I can learn to meet them better than anyone else so he doesn't have the urge to have them met somewhere else. Are EP's the same? We can follow some of them and make exceptions or we can follow them with no exceptions creating a much stronger front.

For example:
I was going to physical therapy. My therapist went on vacation and another PT took her place for the week - a man. The first time I saw him, DD was with me. The second time I saw him, I was alone with him. Not only alone, but they always turn down the lights and play soft music, so here we are in a darkened room, he's rubbing my neck and doing the stretches making me feel good. While talking, he smiles a lot and tells jokes. The attention was nice, I admit. I hadn't thought much about this since he's a doctor/a professional, but now I know that I can't make that exception.

I consider EP's to be the boudaries. There are A's because of bad boundaries, so I need to make a concentrated effort to make those boundaries as high as possible. I've always had good boudaries, but now I just realize that they can be stronger. I've taken a hard look at myself and noticed the gaps that need to be filled in. It's not easy to look back and try to find my faults, but if I want to make this last a lifetime, that's something I need to do.

drgnfly, in the year before my A, my very dearly loved father died and within 6 months my MIL died, then 6 months later my FIL died. It was a terrible year - we were grieving all year. My H went into a very, very deep depression. It was the first time in our marriage that I couldn't reach him and he didn't want to be reached. He couldn't really see how bad he was. Life became a round of getting up, going to work, then coming home to silence.

Of course, looking back I should have insisted he get treatment for his depression but I was in quite a bad way myself with grief.

One day, out of the blue, the old flame rang me at work. He knew where I worked because about 5 years before we'd bumped into each other outside my work. That is what I mean by having EPs, the thought of saying any more than "hello, fancy seeing you" never entered my head. Same old flame - no A.

A mutual friend of ours from years ago had died and he told me he was going to the funeral and asked if I wanted to come. I thought about it for a moment and said I would. I thought it would be good to catch up with people from year's ago and the friend who died had been a very good friend when we were young.

I told my H what had happened - he wasn't thrilled about the idea of me going with the old flame but there had never been any reason not to trust me and I trusted myself and my own boundaries.

At the funeral, as expected, I caught up with a lot of old friends and there was a lot of talk about our mutual past. The old flame and I spent a lot of time talking but it was all very general - family, work etc etc.

Then he drove me home. On the way home, talk became more personal - why hadn't I slept with him when we were young - why had I broken up with him when it was obvious he wanted to marry me. So, personal talk. Then he said let's stop for a drink. So we did, somewhere very close to home - out in public - all above board. More talk but nothing more.

My H said when he heard the car pull up finally at 8.00pm his first thought was "here's trouble". The weekend went by and I thought I'd never hear from old flame again - I just didn't think that was the way things would go. It didn't particularly concern me - I wasn't thinking along A lines.

On Monday morning I had an email first thing from him. He didn't know my email address but had worked out how our work emails were set up and just tried that. I was flattered that he'd gone to that trouble and, yes, I was pleased to hear from him. I agreed to meet him for lunch, just as friends.

That's how the A started and it finished 18 months later.

That is something that i suppose COULD happen to anyone.

But like i said before i would not have talked to the old flame to begin with other than to say hello, nor would i have gotten in a car with him (unless it was a group of people), or went anywhere with him especially not for a drink.

And i would not have answered his e-mail other than asking him to please not e-mail me again.

That is why for me anyway i feel that i have always had good boundaries in place that i would not cross, i just wouldn't.

If any of that had happened the year before, that would have been my reaction. I admit it, after the year we'd had, the thought of meeting up with old friends was very enticing. The rush of excitement of "something" other than just work and home made me unaware of anything else.

I had NO idea about A's. I just didn't think I was wired that way. I'd have been just as happy if his wife had come along.

When he emailed, my first reaction was "oh sh**" (sorry, mods but it was). That was followed by "what harm can come of a lunch". As I said, I'd seen him 5 years before with no reaction whatsoever. It was "big deal" I've just seen old flame.

It was the combination of circumstances, it was naivity, it was being in a vulnerable position. It was making choices which I really hadn't thought through.

Jen, you give such wonderful insight. It really is invaluable. Do you think that most WS's kind of "fall" into the A instead of actively looking for one?

For me i went 3 years prior to my FWHs A where we barely spoke to one another because he was allowing someone to live in our home that i did not want to be there.

So i told him that if this person is going to be here you will have to spend your time with him because i do not like to be around him. He chose to spend his time with him intead of me. Therefore none of my ENs were being met on a daily basis and i had to face this drunken man who was leaching off of us everyday for that three years.

Still did not cross any boudaries, did not have the desire to cross any boundaries, and still would not cross any boundaries.

My feeling is that once you are married the ONLY man who should be in your life at all is your spouse (and of course other family members that are male). You should not talk to other men, you should not have lunch or drinks or anything else with any other man.

That way you would not ever be in a situation where anyone besides your spouse could meet those ENs.

I agree that it is nice to hear the WS side of things.

Jen is awesome! She has given me so much advice about Flick's mind and insights to all sorts of things wayward. And the best thing is no matter how crappy it is she is willing to share. I don't know I would be that good.

Thanks Jen!!!!!

{{{HUG}}}

Jen,

First of all, I want to let you know how terribly sorry I am for everything you and your H went through. I can't imagine how awful it was to lose your father and in-laws.

Thank you for replying to me. I can definitely see how your defenses would be down in that case. So what I'm hearing is along with everything else in your life making you vulnerable, you knew this guy and were comfortable with him, so you didn't feel the need to keep your boundaries as firm because you trusted yourself and him. Is that about right?

I could have easily ended up in a very similar story:

I had an old high school friend (male) ask to get together one time when he was in the area. At first, I had decided not to go if Skald didn't want to, but then Skald left me. The friend came up about a week after Skald left, and I decided to get out and go. It was me, him, his mom, his brothers, and another friend. I met them at our old high school to watch a football game and then we all went to a bar in our hometown.

While sitting at the table at the bar, he would try to put his hand on my back or brush my hand with his. I moved further away and turned to another conversation at the table. He also tried walking me to my car, but I avoided him. They even tried to get me to go out to their Mom's house for a bonfire, but thankfully I refused that right away. At least part of my brain was working that night.

He knew I was having problems at home, but when he found out that Skald and I were working on things, he never contacted me again. He always was afraid of Skald.

I never should have put myself in that situation. I was trying to make Skald jealous and angry (which I did), but it was dangerous to me and our M. It could have easily turned out so different.

If I'd kept my EP's firm, I wouldn't have put myself in that dangerous place. If I hadn't been so devastated from Skald leaving me and then his confession about the A, I never would have considered going out alone. I trusted myself and I KNEW this guy, so I never saw anything happen. sigh....

This just reinforces my feeling to up my EP's. I need to make a more concentrated effort and there can be NO exceptions.

It's really not easy looking back and seeing all the things I should have done differently throughout our relationship. Shoulda, woulda, coulda... At least I'm learning from our mistakes and making the needed changes now.

Again...Thank you so much for explaining your situation to me.

drgnfly

Wow...this is EXACTLY what I felt when this guy contacted me! *shaking head* I was so relieved to have something other than the pain to think about for just a few hours, that I jumped at the opportunity to go. I was grateful to all of them for making me laugh for a little while.

And I would have loved it if his wife had come along. I didn't get the A aspect of all this until after Skald and I got back together and I started reading here. Then it all clicked together, and I realized what I had stepped in to.

Thanks Lil and drgnfly and you too, Still Crazy. My H is like you, he can't see him being wired for an A no matter what happens. We'd been through things before - when our son dropped out of school it was the most terrible thing. Seeing a bright boy throwing away his future nearly killed me. I had a breakdown but my H and I clung to each other. We knew we had each other. After a long marriage, lots happens. Good and bad. We'd always weathered it. We had each other.

That year when our parents died was different. We were both grieving, life had really reached an all time low. My H wouldn't reach for me and I wasn't in a place to reach for him. Losing my father was terrible. I adored him. Losing my inlaws was horrible but I was still grieving for my father. I just couldn't take it all in.

When I was in the middle of my A, my H was leaning very heavily for support on a woman friend of his. Even now, he refuses to see it as an EA but I'm convinced that's what it was.

Verve, you asked if most people "fall into A's". I think they do. I think thdfd are certain people who actively look for A's. it's part of their lifestyle, but I think they are in the minority. I don't really like the term "fall into", it seems to infer that it's beyond your control or not a choice and it IS a choice, no matter how you try to sugar coat it. I could have stepped back at any time, right from the first email but I chose not to.

Please excuse "thdfd". It's meant to read "there". lol

I know what you are saying here; we too have weathered many things in our 25 years together both good and bad and had always clung to each other. Life has many struggles that get in the way sometimes.


I understand pain this as well and it is a horrible one and I am sorry for yours. I have lost both of my parents and both of my in-laws also although I will have to say not all in the same year although my H did lose his step dad and his grandfather (whom he was extremely close to) within a week of each other in 1995. His grandfather’s funeral was the same day I was having surgery for a hysterectomy and he was a mess not knowing where to be. I told him to just be with me until I came out of surgery and then go to the funeral. I still have a hard time with mother’s day and father’s day and my parents have been gone for a while.


I would have to agree with you on this it sounds like an EA to me. And I would have to say that this is a boundary issue as well. IMHO once you are married you should not have “friends” of the opposite sex you should only have “couple” friends or same sex friends.


And once again I am not trying to knock you in any way but this is my point exactly. It was your “choice” to take the steps you took, not anything else. And it began the moment you accepted the invitation from him. My “choice” would be different than the one you made every single time. I would not accept the invitation.

Dr. Harley says that A's can happen even by going out with couples. You might find yourself attracted to the man and start gravitating towards him in the conversations without even thinking about it.

I'm curious: During the whole time that your ex-nephew lived with you, you were NEVER alone in the house with him?

Skald and I were talking about this the other night. We came up with this example:

Say a man and his wife go into the same restaurant very frequently and they usually have the same waitress. They both talk to the waitress and know her name. The man says a joke and makes her laugh (he's not intentionally doing this for the waitress - he made his wife laugh too), but say the waitress has been having a really hard time and this guy just keeps cheering her up every day. She starts to look forward to seeing him every day and over a long period of time she finds herself thinking of him ALL THE TIME. She thinks she's in love with him.

She might just leave him alone, or she might start doing little things to make him happy too thus adding her to his bank. Without ever intentionally doing anything, they now have positive balances in their accounts. He doesn't see anything wrong because she's just being nice. Then he stops in every once in a while without his wife, and there you go. "It just happened."

Even though you are always together as a "couple" and you do not discuss personal things with the opposite sex member of the couple. I suppose it is possible.

And i was never alone in my house with the ENIL. He basically lived in our garage and knew i did not like the fact that he was there so he avoided me as well.

This is a big issue for me as my FWH does this kind of stuff ALL THE TIME although we do not frequest the same restaurants so we would not see the same waitress he does it anyway. It is my "friendly vs flirty" thing and i do not like it. There is no harm in being polite, but why do you have to "joke around" with someone that you do not even know.

Still_Crazy,
I agree. I also have a problem with the "friendly vs flirty" thing. There is a difference and for some reason some people can't see it.
JoJo

I agree JoJo and i for one don't understand why some can't see it either. I know for me and my FWH i always ask how he would like it if it was me doing the "joking around" and of course he says it would not bother him. But i wonder if it "would not bother him" is some sort of justification because if he said it would bother him if i did it then he would have to stop.

He will not know if it would bother him because i do not do it to him.

Lil,

Here's my list.

Extraordinary Precautions

 I will protect my husband at all times
 I will practice the MB principals as stated by Dr. Harley
 I will share all passwords, account info with my husband. Nothing is private – he has access to everything.
 I will share my private feelings, thoughts, and concerns with my husband and not hold anything back.
 I will share my schedule with my husband and discuss any changes with him.
 I will not discuss my personal issues with any man besides my husband unless he gives his consent and is present.
 I will not help/discuss another man’s problems unless my husband gives his consent and is present.
 I will not be alone with another man unless my husband approves.
 I will not go out with another man unless my husband is present.
 I will not strike up conversations with men I do not know.
 I will not have a health care provider (doctor, therapist, personal trainer) that is a man unless my husband is present or there is an emergency and I am need of immediate assistance.
 I will not participate in activities without my husband unless he approves enthusiastically.
 I will never have any secrets from my husband - unless it’s his birthday or Christmas present.
 I will not let anybody walk over me – I will stand up for myself
 I will not accept anything but Openness & Honesty
 I will listen to my gut/instincts
 I will wake up each morning and make a concentrated effort to be happy
 I will look for the sunshine in every situation

These rules have no exceptions – they are applied equally.