Someone else posted something about this on another thread (SIWH I think?) so I thought I'd start a new thread about it.

I've been here awhile now and I've seen some cases (BWs in particular) where the BS does a fantastic Plan A and things are going along smoothly. When the BS vents about their pain, they are quickly encouraged to go to Plan B to protect their love. Maybe too soon.

I never did Plan A or Plan B, so I'm not coming at this from experience-- just as an observer.

Why should a BS go to Plan B if they can handle what the WS is dishing out during Plan A? I've heard about the cake-eating, losing your love, protecting yourself from the constant abuse (not physical abuse). But if a BS is strong enough to endure, why can't they stay in Plan A as long as they want? Is Plan B ALWAYS necessary? Isn't Plan B an extreme measure?

I guess my main question is this:

Can a BS who is strong enough to endure what the WS dishes out during Plan A, stay in Plan A for as long as they want?

I'm probably the worst person to respond, since my Plan A was pathetic and I went to Plan B so I could begin personal recovery while waiting for Plan D to unfold. However, I give my opinion on the situations I read here.

Why not stay in Plan A if you can handle it? Well, why would you? If the A hasn't ended(which would be the only reason to go to B in the first place), Plan A, after exposure and any drastic financial adjustments are done, allows the WS to cake-eat for a period of time. The purpose is for the BS to show what the marriage could be if the WS were to choose it. If you are doing it right, it shouldn't take that long.

Meanwhile, the WS - selfish pig that they are - is basking in delight of having the benefits of marriage AND an affair at the same time. They get used to this pretty quickly. When the BS finally does go to Plan B, they get angry. Why? Because you've just removed this luxury from them.

The thing is, the longer you allow them to wallow in this disgusting bliss, the more entitled they feel to it and the more they believe that the BS is actually ok with it. I don't think it should ever get to this point. It's not good for anyone, whether the BS is handling it or not.

Plan B is the last desperate attempt a BS has to save the M. But look at what the situation is here. Regardless of the details, you have:

1. WS is having an affair
2. BS found out
3. WS is still having an affair
Plan A:
4. BS exposes, removes financial support of A, ensures WS feels every consequence of A
5. BS meets as many ENs as possible while committing no LB's
6. WS cake eats and is still having an affair.

Exactly where would you go now? Continue on and WS just keeps cake eating. Plan A is about showing the WS there is a choice. Plan B is removing one of the choices unless certain conditions are met. If those conditions aren't met, who'd want a marriage that continues on with the WS cake eating?

I did not do either plan myself but I would advise any BS to go to plan B if the WS continues to be cruel, hurtful, or deceptive. I think I was strong most of the time but there were some things that exploded in my face because FWH was afraid to tell me the truth. Further damage was done to me regardless of 'good' intentions. Problem is a BS never knows when those bombs are going to go off. Even if the A is over, the WS is still going to cover his [censored] and try to minimize disclosure. A BS can only take so much. Something snapped in me on Dday. Add crackle and pop to it and the BS can be crushed (emotionally, mentally, and spiritually) to the point that they lose not just their M but themselves. No spouse or M is worth that.

((((P))))

Good discussion. I too have wondered this in a sense. I know when I FIRST came here, the rule of thumb was Plan A for 6 months, 3 months for women. Then it was changed to 3 weeks for women because of the emotional toll it took.

Personally, this change in thinking has me confused a little. I mean, how does a BS "lose" their love for the wayward??? By this I mean, Dr. H states over and over the AP'S must have NC, because there will ALWAYS be a flame there and any little contact could re-ignite that flame. Well, if that is true (and I believe that it is), then wouldn't ALL married couples have a flame for each other, even if they do divorce??

Can a person truly ever "lose" their love for their spouse???

And even if it SEEMED they did, could the other spouse work to get it back???

Isn't that why many divorce couples find themselves years later, even after they have remarried, in the throws of an affair with EACH OTHER???

So this whole "losing" your love for your wayward has always confused me a little. I do know that it your love is damaged as time goes on, making recovery that much harder and resentment greater, but I know for me, I could never truly "lose" my love completely for my husband, even if we divorced. And I also know that if we had divorced, any display of lack of love or hatred on my part would really just be a facade to keep the flame that will always remain, down.

Now, I do believe for some, Plan B is needed not because they are losing their love, but to "make" something happen. Otherwise, life would go on with the status quo never changing, and the BS not getting a life or marriage that they SHOULD have. I do think Plan B is an extreme measure, but a necessary one at times for those waywards who are unwillingly giving up their affairs.

That being said, I think too many newbies are encouraged to go into Plan B too early after starting Plan A. I know for me, three weeks would hardly be enough time to convince me that the BS had truly changed, IF I was the wayward. I just don't see too many around here that seem to be in Plan A for too long of a period of time.......

not2fun

I struggled with this as well. I hated going to Plan B because I felt like Plan A was the only chance to maintain contact with WH. At that point he had ended "seeing" OW, but was still in contact (so he says).
However, I was struggling so much emotionally with the pain of seeing him; the random contact from him, that I decided to go to B. It was very difficult, but I think as we are now headed to D, I think this would have been even more difficult for me.

I also think I gained much more insight into who I am without the constant contact. I also realized that to a great degree, I was simply afraid to not be with him.

I still miss him every day. I still struggle with if D goes through will I then be able to have a relationship with him at all or is he gone from my life forever?

Yes, there is tons of second-guessing, but I can only focus on why I made the choice I did at the time and if I decide to end B it will be for my good -- not his.

The real danger, imho as a fww, is that doing too long of a plan A allows the WS to comfortably cement their relationship with the OP while slowly disengaging from the spouse. If the BS waits until they're ready to end contact with the WS, chances are that the WS is not going to feel too much pain, either. Done early on, it forces the WS to make a very unpleasant decision and cause problems in the affair by making him/her wonder if he/she did the right thing.

But is that ALWAYS the case... they feel more entitled? What if it's not? What if they start coming around MORE... thinking MORE... and start liking the changes they see. What if OP starts LBing to the max BECAUSE WS is coming around BS more? I know in my case, when my WS came around, he felt guilter and guilter, the more time that passed.

Why can't the BS, while in Plan A, let WS know that they're not okay with it? Let them know that this won't last forever without actually pulling the trigger? Doesn't the BS know themselves well enough to know when enough is enough? I'm talking about a mature, strong BS. Not some that I've seen that accept just crumbs.

Right, but isn't it up to the BS to decide that? Should we not make SURE that a BS can't handle anymore before we guide (or sometimes shove) them into Plan B?

But that's the problem...how can anyone be sure what they can't handle until it happens? Whatever advice I offer to a poster, it's only my advice. I hope no poster here acts on advice with a feeling of being shoved into it. No one can predict the outcome of Plan A or B. Even if the A is over, if the WS is still lying, deceived, or sweeping the A and other marital problems under the rug, I'd still advice a 'Plan B' of sorts to protect the BS from more damage. Continually feeling unsafe, being lied to, deceived, belittled for over reacting, ____________ (fill in the blank with other wayward behavior) can't be healthly for a person. Putting up with that sort of behavior HAS to wear on a person. IMO

If I am not mistaken, this is CLEARLY stated in Pep's Plan A and Plan B. Even in SAA. Dr. H does NOT advocate the BS being OKAY with the affair, only that the BS should make in known in non-LB ways.

This was also told to me by Starfish early on in my sitch. She posted me Bramblerose's "How to Plan A while not being a Doormat".......

not2fun

I wish I knew how to quote more than one post.


For one thing, the A probably didn't end because the OP "discovered" that the WS was back with his/her spouse. There's no reverse adultery. A WS behaves so cruelly to their BS - not just the adultery itself but all the other crap that goes along with it - keeping that flame burning isn't that easy.


As someone who reached this stage, I'd say that I have absolutely no (zero) love for WstbxH as the man he is today. I cannot love someone who's willfully and intentionally cruel. He is not the same man as the DH that I married. That man I loved, but he no longer exists.

Probably depends on just how cruel the WS was (and how forgiving the BS is). Many BS's throw their WS out upon d-day without visiting MB or making any attempt whatsoever for recovery. They are just done, regardless of how remorseful the WS is.

In essence, this probably is similar to that flame you were talking about earlier. One shouldn't really be in contact with any exes - other than for the purposes of coparenting. Look how many affairs happen between former highschool sweethearts. I'm not saying one ought to write NC letters to every person they ever dated, but if you run into an old flame, you probably shouldn't try to reestablish any kind of relationship with them.
It's not just time that damages your love. Cruel acts did it for me. Imagine seeing the OW's face photoshopped into your wedding photo! Imagine being told "it's ok if you stay in the house - the OW is such a sweet, kind, caring person who would never hurt anyone and she doesn't want to see you in the street" - about me staying in my OWN house!!!

I believe this role of Plan B is often understated. When Plan A is having no affect on the affair, if you don't do anything, you are enabling it.
Maybe I'm reading different threads but sometimes I'd say the opposite. I see many BS's hanging on to Plan A as if they are afraid of losing even that much. I'll go a step further and say that there are a group of BS's who do only the carrot side of Plan A without the stick, and then stay there, never moving to B. And if they do go to B, they are weak and allow their WS to break it frequently.

I have to say that I so want to avoid my plan B... I'm 9 months in plan A ... I still am hopeful that I don't have to force the plan B but there has to be an end at some point. I do beleave it is about what one can take and that is not the same for everyone.

I don't see how 3 weeks gives plan A a chance if the goal is to give the WS a chance to see what they will be giving up. It takes time to show affection to WS and for the fog to clear....

I was in total shock for the 1st couple of weeks and the nature of plan A for me had not had a chance to take hold...

I have read on several threads that best chance of recovery is in a plan A . How can one work on rebuilding if your in a dark plan B... that makes since to me .... It also makes since to have a plan B ready well thought out...

I think it would be to distructive for me if I didn't have a plan B ready...I know in my mind that I can pull that trigger when ever I need to.... That gives me a since of control and a knowledge that I have a escape if I need it.

As we hit bumps in our recovery and I put my foot down on someting I know that WS could refuse to comply at any moment and could force plan B. That process of having a plan B to fall to gives me a since of peace... Dr H. warns about ultimatoms and having a clear since of what I can take and where my lines are helps me to not do any unnessary LBs.... So I remain hopeful that as we try to move foward that time is on our side and that recovery is possible.....

Exactly!! The WS may THINK that they're in control of the whole situation and they can do whatever they please, but they don't know that BS has an Ace up her/his sleeve -- Plan B. It's not how long a BS HAS to put up with wayward behavior, it's how long he/she CAN put up with it or is WILLING to put up with it. There is ALWAYS Plan B as a last resort.

So is your WS's affair over? If so, you aren't in Plan A anymore, you are in recovery. If not, you are not in recovery. You can Plan A until the cows come home but there is no recovery as long as the affair is still active. What do you hope to accomplish by enabling the affair for 9 months?

I just returned from the MB weekend and heard Dr. H speak briefly about Plan B. His words to me were that Plan B is about protecting the love bank of the BS.

Your question was what about those BS's who can "handle" Plan A indefinitely. The problem I see with that is you really don't KNOW how low your account is until it is in the negative. You can't check your balance.

IF you buy into the love bank idea, you HAVE to believe that a BS can fall out of love, too.

And I agree with Tabby about some BS's hanging onto Plan A.

I think there can be other benefits to Plan B, even though they are not the GOAL of Plan B...like the BS getting a taste of what it means to divorce. This is especially beneficial when the WS thinks there will be a pleasant divorce where everyone is just one big happy family, including OP.

I also think there are dangers to staying in Plan A for a long period of time. It reinforces the WS's idea of one big happy family.

SC, the fog will not clear, though, as long as the WS is still in the affair. Plan A is not neccessary if the affair has ended. It should only take about ONE DAY to express to a WS that you are willing to meet his needs in the future if his affair ends. It is usually impossible to meet the needs of a detached WS, so the point is to show your willingness. The GOAL of Plan A is to show the WS your WILLINGNESS to meet his needs, that is all.

The problem with staying in Plan A too long is that it often results in severe emotional and physical problems, especially for women. This is why Dr. Harley recommends 3-4 weeks.

Plan A was never meant to be a WAY OF LIFE and actually has a harmful effect on the marriage if done too long because the WS gets into the habit of getting his needs met in both places. And as long as he has that, HE HAS NO MOTIVATION TO END HIS AFFAIR.

If you read the chapter on infidelity in His Needs, Her Needs, Dr Harley does a good job of outlining how Plan B can actually HASTEN an end to the affair. And here is how: the OP is meeting 1-2 TOP NEEDS of the WS; the BS is meeting 3-4 minor needs. So the ideal situation for the WS is to get his needs met in BOTH PLACES; that way he can live endlessly in this wonderful situation. A too long Plan A only prolongs the affair.

What the WS does not realize is that the OP cannot meet all of his needs. The WS does not realize this until the BS goes into Plan B. So when Plan B ensues, it is quickly realized that the OP can't/won't meet those 3-4 needs the BS was meeting, which causes LOVEBUSTING. Another dynamic in play is that the WS raises his EXPECTIONS of the OP since he has "sacrificed" so much.

Keep in mind that affairs are based on thoughtlessness, selfishness and deceit, so when demands are made on a SELFISH, THOUGHTLESS PERSON, it does not bode well.

It is this dynamic that causes the affair to crumble much more quickly when a BS goes into Plan B. It is my belief that affairs crumble much, much faster in Plan B.

And keep in mind that only 15% of affairs end in Plan A, so Plan B is usually a GIVEN.


What I have observed on the forums over the years is that conflict avoiders tend to be very enamored of Plan A because they use it as cover to do nothing. Keep in mind that Plan A WAS NEVER MEANT TO be a way of life. Dr Harley recommends 3-4 weeks for women, 6 months for men.

Yes, a long-term Plan A IS enabling the affair. Those who claim to be doing a long Plan A are often the same BS's who refuse to expose, or don't do it properly or thoroughly, and do everything they can to prevent the WS from having any consequences from the affair.

You are comparing apples to oranges. The basis of one relationship is ABUSE, and the basis for another is romantic, fantastical love. When someone is ABUSED by her WS, of course she will fall out love unless she is very dysfunctional. The affair, on the other hand, does not have abuse, but romantic love.


yes, see above. Often they grow to HATE the abusive spouse.


Sure


But the goal is not to "convince the WS that you have truly changed" but to SHOW YOUR WILLINGNESS TO CHANGE. I disagree that people are encouraged to go into Plan B too soon. After all, Dr Harley recommends 3-4 weeks for women and 6 months for men. I see people here doing a good job of sticking to those principles.

What concerns me the most are those who make Plan A a WAY OF LIFE as a means to avoid conflict. These are the ones who are doing the most harm to their marriages. We have ppl here who have destroyed themselves with bitterness by making Plan A a way of life and living day in and day out in abusive situations. That is very dysfunctional. They are teaching their spouses to be abusers.

I stayed in Plan A for nearly 9 months. At times I found it to be very hard because of "expectations". Mimi helped me to understand it was MY Plan and I looked for things to do. It kept me occupied on positives and feeling like I was "doing" something.

I was created, having fun and for the most part wished I could have gone longer. However, the positive became counterintuitive and not as effective.

Cake walking? Nope, mine pretty much said he left the door open, but he was committed to having an open, honest and trustworthy relationship with crack ho.

Now, they are broken up. You were right Believer.

Being in Plan B, however, the urge for me is to reignite Plan A and I wonder what people think of that?

He met one of the two conditions... He ended his affair with her, however, he is still in the wayward mindset. Selfish, can't see his way to making an apology, still out there. My mind would love to throw in a Plan A or sorts and catch him off guard.

thoughts?

Show me a 9 month Plan A and I will show you a CONFLICT AVOIDER is hiding behind Plan A.