I think it's perfectly reasonable to change your mind on boundaries that you've agreed to in the past but no longer work for you. Of course, you'll have to be prepared for a little resistance, especially if it's something the other person finds really great or convenient.

I'm not sure about the areas that no longer apply. If they will never apply again, I think it's useless to go to bat over it.

Of course, expressing regret or unmet needs in the past is something different, but only if things still bother you now. I find it often helps me when I talk myself through past situations like: "I made decision X back then because I was afraid and it met my need for security. However, now I see that although I was looking out for myself in a way, I didn't look for a solution that also met my need for variation. Right now, I feel kinda sad because I really need to be better at this and listen to myself." And if I say these things to people, they sometimes think it's weird but they haven't felt angry or afraid yet!

If you think the areas will apply again in the future, by all means it sounds like a good idea to be clear about what you want! You may want to wait with actually negotiating these things until they start applying again - like who does what chores if you move back in with your wife - but it's good to clarify your needs for when that happens.


I think that depends on what you need. Do you need understanding? Do you need to be honest with her, regardless of whether she'll understand or empathise? Do you need to feel at home somewhere, and you think your old house is the best place to do so? Do you need to be closer in proximity to the kids?

In some of these cases, I think you'd gain by explaining, in others, not so much.


Yeah, I think so too. It's just you and you just happen to have a strong need for peace. And when you talk about it in a need-focused way, you may even find out that there would be other ways to get your peace! Maybe the clutter bothers you less if you have a peaceful, intimate relationship with your wife. Maybe it bothers you less if your job is less stressful. Maybe it bothers you less if you're better off financially, so the stuff lying around doesn't remind you of wasted money.

I don't know. People are beautiful and complex, and there's never a need that can be met through only one strategy.

(However, I think that having less clutter around is one of the easiest things to request for you to get peace!)


That's a tough one. You seem to hold yourself responsible for the other's happiness, and the other for your happiness. That's a prevalent view, but I've been trying to wean myself off of it.

People don't make people happy, having needs met makes people happy.


Oh, definitely, especially if you can do it in a loving, non-judgemental way.

And if reconciliation doesn't occur - you have non-adult children, right? My parents divorced nearly 20 years ago, and I actually feared inviting both to my graduation ceremony because they'd both still pick fights when they were in the same room. For them to have been able to communicate clearly would have made my life so much less miserable!


That's sweet.



Possibly, but you can always straighten that out if she brings it up, right? You were probably more angry because you want your kid to be happy and don't see a way to avoid this particular pain.


Yeah, taking compliments graciously is somewhat of an art, especially when it comes to women and how they look. And, of course, giving compliments is also somewhat of an art, especially when it comes to women and how they look. I always love Marshall Rosenberg's 'recipe' for them


So, you're feeling annoyed because you feel anxious that she hasn't responded yet? And this annoyance is telling you that you have a need to be strong, to be independent, but this need isn't met because your need for contact and intimacy is winning for the moment?

Dkd, I am also a woman who has a really hard time accepting compliments--particularly from H. I've thought about this and the best explanation I can come up with is that I take his compliments, run them through my own filters, apply some negative connotation that doesn't exist and then get upset. I have stopped doing this and have learned to respond simply "thank you". I"m sure he would like a more gracious response, but old habits die hard and I think I've come a long way just not running them through my filter anymore and accepting them at face value. The rest will come. Not saying this is your wife's story, but there could be a reason, completely unrelated to you, that she has trouble with compliments.

Allow yourself some latitude to feel annoyed at the lack of a response, process it and try to put it on a shelf and move on. You are only human and it's a human response to want a response!

Good luck.

This is close to what I'm thinking, but it's more about things still bothering her then things bothering me. Perceptions that she may still about what I think of her versus what I think of the situation we were in. Change it from "he thinks I'm a slob" to "he needs less clutter for peace"...the latter being much easier to accept. I guess what I'm hoping to do is improve her perception of me as well as show that the gap between us is not as big as it first appears to be.



Yes, but does she need to know that now or when/if she's ready to try again? It would think it isn't good for to agree and then get hit with a list of boundaries. Then again, she may not care to listen right now...or be annoyed that she's asked to listen to boundaries that don't apply.


I think I mostly need honesty. I'd love understanding too, but I know that isn't always going to happen.
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I haven't thought of it, but I do think it would bother me less if we were more intimate. Odd. As far as financially, yes because we'd get a maid.




I don't think I really do so much, but I have a hard time expressing it any other way. It's not hard to make me happy, it's just hard for me to tell people what makes me happy.


We've communicated well on parenting, it's just other stuff that goes unsaid or misunderstood. Sometimes that spills over into how it effects us being parents, but neither one of us like that.


She is unlikely to bring it up. She may think it, but may want to avoid the conflict. I guess I need to ask her to let me know when something bothers her so I can atleast clarify.



Anxious? Yes. Do I want the contact and intimacy? Sort of. I want confirmation and validation that it was accepted and hopefully appreciated. If I hadn't sent an email, I wouldn't care about that. I'm annoyed because I know what to expect.

OH, my W also usually says thank you. She did actually say that in the situation I was refering to. And FYI, I'd like a compliment right back. Hard to say because it's not like I'm fishing for compliments, just would be nice to hear that I look pretty good too.

As for giving myself some room on being annoyed, yes. I think what that really means is that I shouldn't say these things in email if I care about a response. I've been doing that lately. I thought I didn't need one for that email, but I was wrong.

As well, my W has said that she doesn't want 'heavy' emails that require a response, which I understand. Not sure if this qualifies in her book. Should have just told her or called her.

So, last night I picked up the kids from the house, took them out to eat, then back to my apartment, bathed them, and got them in their pajammas. Then I took them back over to the house. That's the typical Wednesday night routine.

In both the pickup and dropoff, W and I chit catted well for about 10 minutes. She did not mention my email one time. Honestly, I feel hurt by this. I don't want to know much, just whether she liked it, it bothered her, or was indifferent. A simple thank you would even be enough. I don't want to guess at this.

So I'm not sure what to do about this. I know this is a boundary that has been broken. Do I tell her essentially what I said above? Do I give it more time? Do I just let it go entirely. I don't think I'll write an email like that again (or atleast try not to) regardless, but I don't know if O&H is the way to go, or let silence do the talking.

To be fair, she could say that she is uncomfortable and doesn't want to be on that level with me, and perhaps she feels that she has communicated that to me, and I just don't want to see it. In a way, I may have broken her boundary in this is how she's responding.

I did send her an email this morning, about a money issue. That gives her another oppurtunity to respond through a BTW.

Dkd, I'm working on that, too, "Respond, don't react." Giving myself some time to think through what I am to learn here before I choose my response. And like you are doing this morning, reasoning through with others. So I don't have to be hit with the same things over and over again until it gets my attention!

Dkd, my husband also does not respond to emotional, deep emails. He says he'd rather talk face to face but I'm unable to do it right now because it's so hard for me. It seems like we always wind up arguing or I end up feeling as though he interrupted every fourth word,twisted my words around or didn't listen. And then I do a poor job of choosing my words and next thing you know, I'm throwing a DJ out there and off we go to the races!

What I think I should do is approach him and say "I know you don't like to communicate via email. But it's very difficult for me to talk with you face-to-face about some issues. I'm working on that. In the meantime, do you think it would work if I emailed you and we set up a time for you to sit down and respond to me in person? I promise to just listen and if I can respond without falling into bad habits then I will do that, otherwise, perhaps I can email you back?" Or something like that. I know that's proposing an awkward situation but until we get to the point where we CAN sit down together and have a positive discussion, then this might be a stopgap. At the very least, we'd be addressing things that need to be addressed rather than avoid them for fear of fighting. Not sure if that would work with you W---perhaps something similar? You would be acknowledging that she prefers another means of communication while firmly stating that you are more comfortable at the moment with emails.

OH, I think that makes perfect sense for you, but I don't think it would work for me. My W and I are separated and she wants a divorce...has wanted it since last summer. Planning a get together to talk about how we related to each other would be shotdown quickly.

I actually do prefer to talk in person most of the time. She has told me that she wants to communicate through email, but she doesn't want any heavy emails. I don't know where this qualifies.

I have been able to talk with her on small/quick emotional things like this, whether in person or on the phone. I think I chose the email path because talking about how I feel and what I think about her is hard to do in person. I can apologize, I can compliment her, I just don't want to open up like that...the fear of her reaction (or possibly lack there of) is just too much.

Since I will likely need to enforce a boundary here, what is the proper response? Does it mean I just don't talk to her at all regarding anything emotional?

And BTW, I have been trying to shy away from saying I know things about her. I have been trying only to make a statement about what she thinks or feels if she has specifically said so.

I think step one is to determine where exactly you'll draw your boundary. I agree that a boundary apparently broke - you feel hurt when she doesn't mention your e-mail, so you have a need for acknowledgement or communication that's going unmet.

Where will you draw your boundary?

How are these to try on for size:
If I send W an e-mail and I she doesn't mention it in some way [within a week/within the next 3 times we speak/within some other timeframe] I will [pick one of the following actions, or possibly multiple]:
- ask her without elaborating on my feelings whether she got it and what she thought about getting an e-mail in the first place.
- ask her about some specific thing I mentioned in the mail to at least get talking about it.
- be radically honest and tell her 'Hun, I sent you an e-mail and I feel kinda hurt that you haven't mentioned it yet. It seems I have a strong need for communication right now. Would you mind telling me how you feel when I say this?' And then listen.
- refrain from typing another mail like that until I can be sure I'll feel fine even if she never answers.
- go to a good (male!) friend or here on MB for a listening ear while I talk about the hurt I feel.
- go do something extremely fun and active (or relaxing and calming) that will put me in a great mood so I'll forget all about the hurt.
- mention in my next e-mail that I'll be contacting her about something I'm mailing her about in a few days, and then do it.

It kinda depends on exactly what you need, so maybe all of these suggestions are off the mark.

In boundary setting, I think it's important to keep them close to yourself - it's not useful to do things that won't /help/ you in a way - giving it more time or letting it go are things that you might do if you're not all that worried or if you know you never stay worried for long, but you seem plenty worried to me. In that case you may just set yourself for resentment and depression. So I think it's better to set a boundary enforcement action that will actually make you feel better by allowing yourself to meet the need you're lacking.


Silence does talk, but I find that it's a gossipy chatterbox with poor brain-to-mouth filters, so you're never actually sure WHAT silence is saying. :p


Yeah, you don't know. But I wouldn't let that worry you. You can always ask.


What need of yours are you trying to meet by being circumspect with your needs?

I am wavering between your first and second options. If I do not get a response to the email I sent this morning, then I will go with option 1. If she does then I'll go with option 2. Actually, 1 followed by 2 sounds good too.

I am not sure if #3 is overkill. She is aware that she has been responding in a timely manner to everyone, not just me, although she is usually pretty good with me. I think she knows that her lack of response hurts.

So my plan is to call her tonight and ask if she received my emails. Then ask her if the first email bothered her in anyway, and specifically if she does or doesn't want me to comment on her looks. Then I will let her know that if something I need to tell her that invovles feelings, I'll call or tell her in person from now on.

I think this will make me feel a little better.



Well, the email this morning needed to be said, it wasn't said just to make contact. However, your point is still valid. I don't want to appear needy. I don't want to say how I feel and be unguarded. I want to be have my needs recognized with exposing that need to the possiblity that she doesn't want to meet that need.

I know that it doesn't work that way, I wouldn't want someone to respond that way to me, but that's the habit I fall back to.

edit: I wanted to add that many of the posts around her are reminding me that I really need to consider how she's feeling and not just my own boundaries.

So I called. Made some small talk. Asked her if she got my email over the money issue this morning. She said yes, and we talked about it for a minute. Then I asked her if she got my other email, and that's when things got a little awckward. She said yes, and sorry that she hadn't responded. I told her that I understood that she doesn't respond to email and I didn't think I needed one when I wrote it, but I was wrong. I asked if it bothered her and she said no. I asked her if she didn't want me to tell her that she looked good and she said it was fine. I asked her if she was ok (things seemed awkward) and she said she had just sat down to watch tv. So we pretty much ended the conversation there. I wasn't crazy about the answer, but then that's pretty much what I expected.

She then called back about 10 minutes later and said she was sorry if she came off rude, like she was blowing me off. I told her thanks for saying that, and that I knew she was tired and it had been a busy week. She needed a break. We talked a bit more and ended on a good note.

So the result is that I don't want to write emails like that anymore. I don't think I should take anymore away from it then that.

Don't know if this will help at this point, but on my thread, someone suggested that if I do ask H about my letter, I should ask him what he thought about it, not "did you get it".

That made sense to me.

I think I did that, though not with the same words. I asked her if the email bothered her and if my comments bothered her. I guess I could have been more open-ended and asked her how it made her feel. I guess I felt that was pushing it a bit.

She also told me last night that she had gone to the bank to try and get pre-approved for a home loan. She wasn't going to get a response for upto 72 hours. I was supportive on the phone, but I was rethinking that this morning.

I was asking myself if I really wanted her to get approved so she could buy the house. I mean, if she can't, it's good for me right? Well, it isn't. I don't want to see her unhappy, and getting approved would be such a confidence boost. And I don't want her to need me for money, but not really want me. And I don't want to see her or my family have to move to an apartment or something. Heck, even if we ever got back together, I wouldn't care who's name was on the house we lived in, and she would surely get a better interest rate then we currently have. My fear is that if she gets it, she won't need me, but does that really make a difference? I'd much rather be on her side and not feel threatened by me.

Dkd---if you have time, go read what I wrote on my thread this AM about open/honesty. I've been re-reading Harley's basic concepts and thinking a LOT about what a disservice I am doing both to myself and the marriage by not sharing (in a non-confrontational manner) my true feelings on a lot of what has happened/is happening in our relationship. It got me thinking, a LOT. In your case, you might benefit from sitting down and figuring out how you really feel about the home loan situation and then honestly sharing that with your wife.

I do want her to be able to get the loan. When I look at it by itself, it's nothing but good. My temptation is to use it as a tool to somewhat force her back towards looking to me for financial support. But that's not what I want. I don't want her feeling like she can't handle things on her own without me. I want her to chose to want me.

But I will reread.

My wife emailed me this morning saying that she didn't have enough money in the account to pay for child care, which is due today. She asked if she could pay for half on her credit card, half on mine.

I told her I prefered it she paid on her credit card.

She replied back 'Thanks'.

For some background, we are separated, and she wants the divorce. I am currently paying the house payment for the home she lives in and the car payment on the car she drives. This is over the amount that we agreed on as temporary child support while we are separated. I pay for my own credit card, plus minimum balance plus on the two cards we share. I recently had to pay for her electrictiy bill because they were going to cut it off... she said she is going to pay me back.

She is a teacher, so she will not have daycare expenses in the summer and thus should be able to pay off her added credit card debt then.

So I am 90% sure I made the right decision, but I feel horrible and could use some support.

-dkd

Definitely, do not go down that path. You're already carrying her too much. The only way she'll ever grow up or, better yet, come to her senses, is if she sees how hard it is to do things 'her way.'

Thanks Cat. I really, really needed to hear that.

I fear that she will just write me off as selfish, that I refuse to pay for my kids needs. Then perhaps she'll go ask her parents for money, and her parents will surely help her out. I hate the idea of her grandparents paying for my kids like that, and I hate that she doesn't want to do that (she has said so several times). I don't have any control over that though, so I won't worry about it.

I have been considering asking for more custody of the kids, partially so that I can see them more and partially so that I can have more control over their expenses. If I pay for child care and much less to her directly, I won't have this issue going forward.

So what? You're not with her any more. Her opinion no longer matters, right?

If you operate with integrity, your kids will know the truth. And learn from you.

I do care about her opinion, but not as much as my integrity. Ironically, she recently told me that she thought the balance of expenses was fair, and that a friend(s) had told her that she should any credit card she wants to, but she didn't think that was right.

I am not sure if her thanks was sarcastic or not. I don't really wish to find out.

I have been contemplating writing her a letter about the state of things with me, and letting her know that I don't really know what's going on with her. Some O&H. I get the feeling though that that won't do anything to clear up any issues between us.

The primary thing I want to say...is that I wanted to be somebody she respected and thought was special. Her 'hero' in a sense. She has often told me that I took the attitude that I considered myself the savior of her and her son when we first got married. I also feel like telling her that I'm not in love with her anymore, but yet I do not feel that that is a permanent state, or the our difference are unreconcilable.