Your WW was married to her previous husband when she started dating you?

Perhaps I got that wrong - she's pretty foggy.

Yes, I was the OM. Of course at the time I didn't see it that way, but through this I most certainly have - a combination of ignorance and rationalizing and matters of degrees that I would never want to apply to my own marriage. Adds a messy and significant dimension to the whole story. It was a very different situation, but I am guilty just the same. I have recently apologized to the ex-husband. There was some discussion further back on my thread about it if you want to read more of the details.

thanks for your reply

Best of luck

Well, that whole mess the other day disappeared from the site, so let's see... Where are we? It's strange because my wife can read my posts now, so I guess there is going to be some transparency that may not always be comfortable. Sorry, Sweetpea, but I'm going to try to be as honest and open as I can because I want to get the best help through this forum.

I feel like she's a different person. It feels like a switch went off. I keep asking her why this is different this time, and she seems to have trouble explaining it, says that "a switch went off". I'm having so much difficulty trusting it even though I want to so dearly. She's being incredibly sweet and caring and loving and seems to answer most of my questions with humble answers. She's very proactive, which is typical of her... Fix it quick - But acknowledges that there is so much to fix and it will take a long time. She seems completely dedicated and hopeful.

Me? I'm feeling kind of lost... Still trying to wrap my head around this change, trying to figure out just what happened, trying to figure out my actions and my attitude. I want to be reserved and distant because I don't want to buy in yet, even though it's what I've fought so incredibly hard for. Still want to see a lawyer but I'm worried that it will be damaging to recovery if in fact it's real. Really REALLY worried that her selfish behavior will return, that she'll lose her resolve when she realizes how hard this is... I'm trying to get the energy and resolve to keep up my end of things because it's work for both of us, I know.

So, I have no idea what to think. It's almost like it didn't happen. She's not defensive, doesn't mind talking about it, is helping with the kids again, telling me she loves me several times a day, very comforting, sympathetic... If this is real, this is what I need. I just wish I knew it was real. Time will tell.

Zen,

There's no rush to go and divorce. I say that you should keep your reaction to a hair trigger if there is more waywardness on her part but you have nothing to lose by engaging her and trying.

THAT you won't regret.

Read up on what Dr. H says regarding marriage counseling. It's very interesting. It's in the article section.

It's also normal to not trust her right away. She betrayed that trust and has to earn it back. Let her put in the work and show you through her actions that she's worth trusting again. In the meantime keep your guard up and Plan A.

Fake it till you make it. Emotions will follow actions.

It's just been so back and forth, I've been at my absolute breaking point at least 5 or 6 times, I really really question her motives.

I want to make sure I remember what I've learned through this, regardless. I want to remember the things that I need to change to be a better me.

But yes, I want to know that she will keep up this effort for the next weeks, months and years if needs be.

She asked me why I have hung in there so long... Said she wouldn't have in my shoes. I asked if this makes her respect me less. It's sad because as this has progressed, my answer has become so much less sure and so much more tainted by her actions. I remember all the reasons, I still stick by them, but the love for her is hardest to find right now. I want to make it all OK. This has just been so humiliating and dehumanizing it's going to take awhile to get on my feet again. Everything still hits in waves. I can't get through a day without crying. I drove behind the OM yesterday. I had visions of following him and introducing myself. Really bothers me that he lives fairly close to us.

I want so badly to keep up the strength I've maintained for the last two months but I'm having trouble finding it. I want to let her pull the reigns for awhile, but I don't kow if it's fair. I'm just so worn down.

Coho mentioned that her first husband cheated on her. Do you know the circumstances?

I really don't know too many details but I think he cheated on her at least twice. I don’t want to compare our marriages because they are very different. I think my wife's first marriage was pretty rocky for much of it. Two people who brought out the worst in each other. He was an ex drug dealer, had a VERY broken and messed up childhood even in comparison to my wife's and my messed up childhoods. I think when they were married he had stopped being involved with drugs etc. Since I've known him, he's been clean and for the most part of OK dad. He has done some horrible, manipulative things to my wife, and continually makes immature decisions with regard to parenting (seems to put his hobbies before his kids), but not abusive and hurtful to the kids in any way. I have no love for him, but he's a decent guy all around.

I think my wife and he came from some very rough times when they met, and it was not a marriage built on a good foundation. I want to be careful not to conjecture too much because it's always hard to judge a marriage from the outside.

When my wife and I started dating, they were mutually separated, planning to divorce. When he saw her dating, I think he wanted to try to save the marriage but she was done. This was an affair in the strictest sense, but I didn't think of it at the time. Like I said, I wouldn't want to subject my own marriage to this standard.

Our relationship was pretty rough at first. I don't have very fond memories of it. She was the first woman I had SF with, the first woman I became that involved with. It was very rocky and I was very indecisive for about 6 or 8 months. As she got her feet under her again, and I consciously became more committed to the relationship, it grew to be a wonderful thing. Within about a year I knew I wanted to spend my life with her.

I know the success rate for marriages that grow out of affairs and broken homes are terrible. I just won’t let that be the reason to end something that means so much to me and my children and has so much good. This is going to open up a whole new can of worms, but I recently found out that my father and stepmother had an affair. My father left my mother for her. They're the example I have always used as the one strong and thriving mature marriage that I know of.

I really don’t want to concentrate too much on history here. I don’t think that's going to help us figure out how to move forward... granted, it's good to know the patterns and behaviors that need to be changed, it's good to recognize the lessons that need to be learned. I think one of the key principles of MB is to actively change behavior that is causing problems in your life. That's what we need to do here.

We had a really nice date night last night. Watchmen was totally boring.

This whole thing has truly taken on a new dimension. The fact that my wife can read my posts and she mine is really changing the dynamic. It's almost like marriage counseling on a forum with no moderator. I read her last couple posts and it was totally devastating. I felt like she failed to acknowledge all the hard work and most of the good qualities I feel that I've brought to the marriage. Then in the end, it just feels like she's blaming me for the affair, which I thought she had stopped doing weeks ago. I had a big breakdown and my wife came and comforted me. I told her that I look like a total jerk in her posts, and I feel like we have such different views of our marriage. She said she didn't intend to make me feel that way but wants to be able to say what she feels. I agree with this, but from those posts, that question of 'why are you here? Why do you want to save our marriage?' remains unanswered or answered in a really unsatisfactory way for me. She's afraid of saying the wrong things on the forums... It's tough because I want her to have all the right answers right away, but it's so unrealistic. First of all, everything is still totally tainted by the affair. I've been pouring over this MB stuff for a couple months now, she's really just digging in. I knew from D-Day that I was in way over my head and I needed to seek help, so there really is an educational element to recovering and just marriage as a whole. I hope she's feeling that way too, but she's very proud, so it's hard to say if she'll accept the help.

Now, onto the good things. Onto the things that give me hope. As I'm crying so bitterly, she immediately comes to comfort me and listen to what I say. During the affair, my tears were met with anger. Over and over she's comforting me and picking me up when I'm feeling awful. It just feels so good to have her care. She's continually making decisions that put our marriage first, that put my healing first. This is HUGE for me. It is exactly what I need. She's remaining cheerful and optimistic in the face of a very big mountain to climb. I'm so proud of her resolve and thankful for her effort. Little by little I'm trusting her motives more. We had a really nice date night last night. No drama!!! A few beers but no alcohol-fueled meltdowns. So really, recovery attempt #6 or whatever this is finally getting off on the right foot I think. I see the woman I love again.

I am just a bit concerned you are reading each others posts.

When Flick first came on he was still a bit foggy and said some things that were hurtful. Now he is less foggy he is better at explaining what he means.

If you are reading Coho's posts and she says something that makes you upset, yes it is good she can comfort you, but stops her having a safe place to say all that she wants where the other readers can call her out if her train of thought is heading into fogland.

I only finally read Flicks thread about 2 months ago and he does not read mine at all, although that is his choice, not mine.

Yeah, I have a worry that what we say will be tainted by the fact that the other is going to read it. I'll talk it over with her. It has been good for me, because I see she's trying, but some of it is very hurtful to read. Thanks for the input!

Yeah, what I've understood is that you want your wife to come here, but you really want to stay off of each other's threads, so that the rest of us can do the work we need to get you both on the same page. And you need to trust us to work in both of your interests.

Zen: Sorry haven't been here much for you this past week. The board shut down and things around my house have me busy...

I've tried to catch up on coho's thread. Interesting to see her perspective. I think JL is hitting the mark with her. Hopefully JL's comments will sink in...

Hang in there!

Zen, first let me apologize for flaming your wife. I was wrong, maybe I sympathize to much. As I said, it is difficult to see someone going through something for months and not get connected. At least for me. I Read Cohos last posts too, and they are troubling. It is like she is a spectator looking in on a marriage, not really being part of it. When she writes about her experiences, she is really cavalier. Its like a laundry list. Very dispassionate. Now this may not be how she acts in real life but it is troubling to read. There doesn't seem to be a wrestling of emotion, contrition or passion. It's like, "Oh well, I'm supposed to be here in this marriage." It was interesting to here that she cried at "Marley and Me". The sad thing is, it sounds like she had more depth of emotion and sorrow over that, then the state of her marriage. If we're talking movies, Its like Jerry Mcguire when Rene Zewillger (or what ever her name is), "I got this great guy who loves my son. Oh yeah, and he likes me a lot" But she is the Jerry Mcguire.

I have read all her posts. Where is the love? Its almost like she hasn't got anything better to do at the moment, "so I might as well work on my broken marriage". The posters on her thread, seem to be trying to dig some depth of emotion out of her, and I sense they haven't seen it either. It comes down to this, and I don't know if this is true, you will have to be the judge. SHE DOESN'T ACHE FOR YOU. I would be encouraged if she was even depressed. At least that would show some effect or that she actually sensed a loss of some kind.

Has she ever broken down in sorrow over the pain she has caused? Have you ever walked in on her crying, or in pain? Is she clinging to you at all? Does she follow you around? Does she come up to you and ask you to hold her, just hold her? Does she look at your face and worry what you're thinking about? Is hanging out with you the most important thing to her?

You don't marry some one you can live with. You marry someone you can't live without!

Just some thoughts. No flames.

Z: You know, after reading "ouch" post I'm thinking about my wife -- and she's pretty controlling also. Not in the same way as yours, but has a controling personality.

I never really saw the tears of "i'm sorry" from either affair. I could see the hurt in her eyes, and the pain, but never really the flat out breaking down and crying. But then again I've never really seen that from her in the 20+ years we have been together. Some tears here and there, but always in control.

On thing my wife said after DDay #2...she fully expected me to kick her to the curb if I found out. When I confronted her she was calm, cool and almost cold. Not a tear in the room. She was waiting for me to say "that's it, you are outa here."

In some ways I think I should have made her leave for at least a few days, or maybe even a week. Did that during A#1 and it really "woke her up" so to say.

But I'm not the kind to lie to my wife, or anyone for that matter, or play games. I don't encourage you to do that either. Never make a threat you aren't willing to follow up 110%.

I'm rambling here...sorry.

What I'm really meaning to say here is if you wife is controling as mine is, you've got to find a way to get her to give up some of that control without her feeling like she's lost anything. She's got to be willing to give up some of that control -- maybe it's to establish boundaries? Maybe to heal your wounds? I don't know.

You may find subtle ways of doing this. Ways which are so subtle that she barely notices them. Ways that enable you to share control and decision making.

Okay, rambling again. I need to get back to things around here. New puppy in the house as of Saturday. 7 weeks old and no idea what it's like to sleep more than 1.5 hours at a time. I'm sure I was up 7 or 8 times to take him out to pee last night. Groggy, sleepy, not functioning well just yet

ouchthathurts:

Ya know, she's not an openly emotional person and never has been. It's always been a concern for me, but she's also incredibly giving and caring at the same time, which I felt counterbalanced her lack of emotional expressiveness. Now I also think this causes her problems in other relationships and our own and can appear as a lack of sympathy or compassion. I hope it's something she explores as she's addressing some of her issues. As we're going through this, this is a pretty big deal to me. For the first years that we were together, she was very adoring of me. That's been gone for some time now, and I attributed it to the maturing of the relationship, the incredibly busy and stressful time of raising two young kids only a year apart. Looking back, I think it is that as well as some serious disillusionment with the marriage. I have my own views as to why that is, and I really don't know if she sees it the same way. I feel like she blames me for the disillusionment. Now some of her complaints about the marriage are TOTALLY valid, but the good that I contribute, the love the care the hard work for our family, she's not really seeing that right now, even though I can tell you, in the world of good and bad husbands, I'm way way up toward the good end. Is that because she spent the last 4 months making me into a total jerk so she could feel OK about what she's doing? Is it because she had some unrealistic ideas about what marriage and family life was like as it progressed? I think it is. I think those issues combined with some deserved disillusionment account for a distinct dulling of the love you feel for someone. I think spending 4 months pouring all your energy into someone NOT your husband can also dull that marital love.

Right now she is COMPLETELY different from the person I was confronted with even during our recent FR. She's not breaking down and crying often, in fact she's quite cheerful and even-keeled. She is following me around, she is asking me how feel throughout the day, comforting me when I cry, apologizing a lot. She has cried occasionally but it's certainly not the wracking sobs that I experience. I feel good about her actions toward me. She is expressing love and it feels genuine although I'm extremely distrustful of it. I suspect that some of it is generated from the 'fake it til you make it' idea. Just over a week ago, she was with the OM. So I can't imagine we're going to see the real direction of this for awhile.

I dunno, I'm terrified that I'm making the wrong decision. I'm scared that she really does lack sympathy, that maybe she's a narcissist or something, but from everything I read, this is still pretty normal this close to the affair. I mean Dr. Harley suggests that the BS shouldn't even expect an apology in SAA. I think the advice we're getting from calls to Steve Harley are somewhat different. He is telling my wife that she MUST make me believe that she understands how deep the pain of this is. So far she hasn't done that, but she has a good start. I can tell that she's very fearful that I won’t eventually be able to move forward.

I do fear that the typical wayward desire to just get past this is inevitable. Eventually the taker in the WW starts getting impatient. My wife is expressing a commitment to stick to it for the long haul. She SOUNDS very dedicated, but yes, her answers as to why are pretty unsatisfactory to me right now. I can only hope that changes or it will have been for nothing. Is it realistic to expect her to jump back into the marriage like we were newlyweds? Or is this just what we the BS would like to hear. I honestly don’t know what to expect, I'm in uncharted territory...

DNU1:

Well, good to hear your perspective once again. Honestly, knowing my wife, knowing how much of a control freak she is, she's being about as expressive and emotional as I've seen. The other night I was asking her to set some boundaries for herself. When she was trying to come up with them, I kept getting upset because she wasn't saying the things I wanted to hear. This made her bawl. I think this is a very good illustration of her personality. She wants very badly to do this right, I think. Me criticizing it was very hurtful for her. Of course this is classic control freak behavior - wanting so badly to 'do it right' that she is really crushed by criticism. Interestingly, I share this exact trait. If what she is expressing is genuine right now, given how I know my wife, this is as good as I can possibly expect recovery to be... She really SEEMS to be in the right place. I'm still amazed that she continually comforts me when I'm losing it. My Plan A stoicism is quickly giving way to the overwhelming grief of the this whole thing and she still seems totally resolved to get through it. That's something I think.

Last night she asked me not to read her thread anymore. She said that she is revealing more details about the affair and doesn't want me to be hurt. I said eventually we will need to do this together, and she said yes, but when I'm ready.

I ask that anyone responding to her to hang in there with her and try to respect the subtleties of personality as well as her progress in recovery. I feel like she's making a huge effort. Is it where it needs to be? I don't know. Will she be more and more on track as she descends from the affair and starts working on her issues? I hope so. I think she's on the right track from where I'm sitting.

Thanks everyone for your help!

New puppy? Are you crazy? My wife has been saying she wants a dog. I can't even take the suggestion. One mroe thing to keep me from spending time with my wife, maintaining my sanity, ever taking a vacation - NO!!!! In fact we got in a little arguement about it yesterday. She said it's like her saying she wants to move to Hawaii, just rambling. This was the same way she 'rambled' about having babies right away and getting another cat and any number of other things she really wants and I don't. Argh.

I do like dogs though. Uncomplicated.

I cried during Marley and Me as well. It had nothing to do with their dog. It had to do with the stress of the kids and the marriage during the middle of the movie. Too close to home for such a silly movie. This is great. i'm going to cry during stupid movies and stupid songs for the forseeable future.

Yea, our first yellow lab had to be put to sleep back in october. We called breeder in December and got on her list well before DDay. I thought about cancelling the order -- just one more thing to fight about should we head to Plan D. But as time has passed and we have grown closer I felt more confident getting a new little guy.

Kids love him. Wife thinks he's cute and fuzzy. I'm ready for him to stop getting up every 1.5 hours to pee at night. Of course it's Dad who has to take him down the stairs and out to pee.

He will be a good pup.

My wife would bang on things like wanting to move to different city, be out of cold, get a cat, this and that. In past I'd just laugh it off and shut her down. Now I really stop and say, "okay, tell me more about what you are suggesting. How can we come to agreement on this."

After DDay and reading here about LB's I've looked back on our lives and thought long and hard about the things I shut her down on. And re-visited them with her asking if I love busted.

It's been good to talk. And she's actually asked about some things i've suggested in the past that she's put the kabosh on. She is trying. I'm trying.

I know it's hard Zen. And probably doubly hard having your WW here posting and getting feedback. I don't want my wife here for fear of her reading my posts and seeing in to my thoughts and feelings right after DDay.

Keep posting and stay away from her thread. Let the wise old veterans have at her and see if they can knock some sense in to her. There are times when I doubt her dedication, and other times when I see you've got a chance. I wish you well. I will keep posting and keep giving you my support!

Well wishes my friend.

zW,

You said

Can you say love buster???? You should. Let her come up with her boundaries in her own time. She is not nor should she say what you want to hear. IN know this is going to sound very weird to you, but you should go to a book store and get the book "Men made easy" by a lady named "Oh". It is sort of a 12 step method for dealing with men. Now since I am a guy and you are, you are probably thinking what the heck is this guy talking about. Well, in one of the chapters it discusses us guys difficulty in discussing our "feelings and emotions". Her advice to the ladies was ask a question and then just sit there until the guy answers. Let it take 10 seconds/30 seconds/60 seconds/10 minutes. Just sit there. Her reasoning is that us guys don't discuss feelings and emotions and certainly haven't done it all of our life like women do, so we don't have the vocabulary and the phrasing to state what we feel. We sort of have to create it on the fly. I sense that your W is a bit like us guys, she is not a very demonstrative person and doesn't spend time talking about her "feelings".

Don't demean or hurry her, let her do this at her own pace. She was in contact with OM last week. The fog is still heavy and withdrawal is still strong.

YOu also said

My guess is she won't have a real clue as to why she did what she did until she is through withdrawal and she sees your changes. I am thinking about 6 months into this she will start to see things far differently than she does now. I will try and find a post by SKM about her journey recovering from her affair. It might give you some insight.

I have more to say but this is enough for now.

Hang in there, she is here, and that means she is trying, baby steps are all you can expect this early in the game.

God Bless,

JL