Hi Zen,

I am sorry, sux to be the BS.


Yes she may feel/act differently from you, but isnt that what MB is all about? Doing things for our spouses to show we love them, even if its not exactly how we would like them to love us? Essentially the rule of extrodinary care.

Can you please break down what you NEED into small steps we can work with. Right now what is the number one thing Coho could do, and exactly how can she do it.

Yeah, just talked to my brother who also mentioned that she was pretty toasted. We agreed to bo more HEAVY drinking. I don;t think she has the ability to delineate between healthy and unhealthy drinking.

I read her thread, and the advice is right there. The EXACT things that would get us through this. She almost never responds to those posts.

Part of me is so afraid that she's just going to get frustrated and give up reading this stuff. But a much bigger part of me knows what I need from my wife and my marriage and I will not compromise. I hope she can do this. I want her in my life.

Thanks Lil...

First, she IS doing the forum which I think is one of the best tools. So a appreciate that, and I hope she continues. Specifically?

- Put marriage first. Period.

- Address the difficult questions posed on her thread.

- Read the recovery section of SAA.

- Stop getting drunk while we're going through this.

- Be honest. BE HONEST.


At the root of my problem is this fear that she thinks cheating is an acceptable behavior given the right circumstances for her. The 'exit affair'. Also, I don't think she's given ANY thought to boundaries. The things that made the choice of adultery easier: Drinking without me. Being in bars without me. Drinking with men. Hanging out with men without me. Thinking that flirting is OK. We have had COUNTLESS conversations about her leading men on. She says that she is just having conversation - what they think is up to them. She has always played the naive card. My wife is not naive. Men are men. She knows this. Will she admit this? Hasn't yet. I want her to boundaries that protect our marriage. I want to know that I haven’t weathered this horror just to have her put herself in the same situation again in 5 or 10 years.

I WANT TO KNOW WHY THIS WILL BE DIFFERENT. Top question. Question number ONE.

I think I could make a list of about 100 items. I think I'm just having a bad spell and I should be careful not to be impatient. Time. Time. Time.

So the firstest thig you want us to talk to her, the big focus and push wou.ld be EP's?
Specifically ones that address the problem of

LOL
dude, we can only fight the battle on one front at a time.

But I know what you mean

if your really having a bad time, can you do something nice for Zen? The guy version of what I suggested to sunshine yesterday? I dont really know what guys like to do to unwind except SF, drink beer and watch sport, and iIsuspect thats not relevant to all guys.

Yes, I just want to know what she will do to prevent this from happening again. Given my talks with Dr. Harley and the fact that this is so early in the process, I think it might unrealistic of me to expect her to have the right answers right now anyway.

Unfortunately I'm on kiddo duty today as well as working non-stop on this big proposal. No rest for Zen until Wednesday. Thanks Lil!

I think until she faces the alcohol problem, things won't get much better. That seems to be related to most of the mess in your marriage.

Your date night reminds me of the ones I had with my ex. We used to walk to a neighborhood bar where there is always good food and music. We got very little time together because of raising all of our kids together. Invariably we sat together, and this woman (I'll call her Sloshed) came and invited herself to sit with us. Then she went on and on about her problems.

I tried to find a place with only 2 chairs, didn't matter, she would stand there for 3 hours. I mentioned to my husband that I preferred to spend the time alone with him. Since he was getting his quota of alcohol, it never changed. Finally, I stopped going, because it just wasn't fun for me.

And I never could get him to do any date nights that didn't involve alcohol. I think your wife may be like that. So prepare yourself that you will be all but ignored on your date nights.

Just last night at the bar we went to, a girl stopped me as I was walking by and introduced herself to me. I told her my name, said nice to meet you, then excused myself to the rest room. My first thoughts? I'm married. See, my wife does not do this.

We've had a couple really good date nights. I mean some really good ones. Always before drinking though. I think it's the alcohol and the emotionally charged situation. But YES. Is it possible to have a date without alcohol? Is it? Or just ONE beer? Or TWO?

Thing is, when we're on an OK footing, I dont mind having some drinks with her, it's fun. But now? It's recovery suicide.

More than this though, I just worry that the drinking allows her to express what's realyl going on up there and this is far far scarier.

Zen - Drinking is fun for some people, but not for those who are addicted to alcohol. Sooner or later, things will turn out badly. Your date night didn't sound like that much fun for you. WW was talking to your brother, commiserating on whatever..............

She pulls the Ms Innocent thing with men, behaves inappropriately, drives drunk, passes out, etc. Or am I wrong?

And if you are like me, you will not really enjoy yourself because you are waiting for the next shoe to fall.

I doubt that your wife CAN stop drinking without going through a program. And she may choose her drinking over you and her children.

No you're right, she does all these things with alcohol. Every single time this is brought up she downplays it. I'm on the fence myself. I've seen her drink at responsible levels for years. She's coming back to that now, but she still drinks way more than me. ALL the fights and very bad moments we've had have involved alcohol. If she can't see that and think there's a problem, then she is really not looking very hard. The affair involved alcohol very prominently.

Ya know for years she'd talk about how her step dad is an alcoholic. I guarantee he drinks less than her.

Here's a simple question for her? Why are you NOT an alcoholic?

Alcoholics can drink normally for years, but I'm sure if she took one of those alcoholic tests, she would be labeled an alcholic. But one of the signs of being an alcoholic is denial.

It is so sad. Your wife seems very nice and like she has a lot going for her, but I'm very afraid for your marriage.

What about non alcoholic dates? Movies, fairground, amusment park? takeaways eaten at a local park....

One thing we do as a family is get KFC or FnC and eat it down at the duck pond. Have done it with just Flick and me, and then walked around the lake.

I'm all for no drinking. I started drinking 3 months ago as a desperate attempt to connect with my wife. I've spent my whole life having fun without alcohol. Now I've come to see that alcohol can be enjoyable, and I'm fine having it in my life, but the day I can't have fun without it, the day i can't go on a date with my wife without it I know I'm in trouble. The day I realize my drinking is causing horrible pain to my spouse I'm in trouble.

One of the first things I asked her when she came back was if she'd give up drinking for a month. She acted like it was a crazy idea. I asked if it was more important than her marriage? She said no. But then she pushed and pushed to have an agreement of no 'heavy' drinking during recovery. Thing is, that's what I want too. I want to be able to have wine with her. I want to be able to have some beers. But she just keeps taking it too far. She doesn't have boundaries.

Ask her that: Can you go on a date without drinking?

I will amongst other things.

I see a flaw already in your plan.

Plans should be tangable, concrete. There should be no words that could have a range of meaning. For example 'heavy'. What does heavy mean to you? To her? To me?

To me it would be opening a second bottle of wine, to my friend it would be having a second glass. Do you see what I mean? Things need to be much more set in stone so there is no wriggle room. "Heavy" is total wriggle. In fact I did a course some years ago in writing instruction objectives. They would have called that word 'fuzzy', has too soft an interpretation.

OK, time to stand back a bit. I'm just wallowing in this hole right now.

I love my wife. I want her in my life. She is the woman I want. She has made some extraordinary effort and progress over the last two weeks. She shed a lot of tears last night and I think most of them had to do with her feeling like she can't do anything right in my eyes. She is doing many things right. She's doing great. Last night wasn't that bad in comparison to our bad nights. It was very different in tone, but there were just enough things said or implied that set me back.

I'm still totally committed to her and to working on it. I believe we can do this. *reaching down, pulling up pant legs, grabbing bootstraps firmly, and giving them a big yank*

I'm going to put on a happy face when she gets back. I'm here for her. She's going to have an awful time when she inevitably reads my thread. I hope it doesn't scare her away.

I hope it doesn't scare her away either, but I do think she has a drinking problem. I like to drink too, and do so from time to time. But if my husband asked me not to drink, I would stop right away. Even if he thought I was an alcoholic, and I knew I wasn't, I would stop, because it isn't that big of a deal for me.

And I have never driven after drinking, have never passed out, never been inappropriate with other men.

I promise you that your wife won't like the way this thread is headed, because her alcohol is more important than anything else.

Then she can't drink, it's that simple. I have had problems with alcohol. I started drinking after the first time Ike cheated and it escalated from there. Needless to say, there were many love busters. Honestly, if I wasn't an alcoholic, I was on the very brink.

Actually getting treatment for my ADHD, helped me. Once I began taking medication for that, the urge to drink began to go away. However, I'm not currently in treatment for ADHD. So, the urge to drink is very STRONG. Ike and I have problems drinking together because I don't know my limit. When I get to the point of being "tipsy" that's when I want more. When I get more, that's when I talk about the A and how it hurt and go on and on and that's not good for our recovery. So, I have to set a limit for myself BEFORE we drink together, or I don't drink at all.

BUT, it sounds as if your wife doesn't know her limit before she drinks? Would something like that even help? And, I'm sorry for this being so long and spouting all this stuff, but I certainly hope it helps.