To all:

Not sure how to summarize the past couple of weeks - the 13th was our wedding anniversary - the day before I found out that the contract I've been fighting for (the one that got screwed up because of the impact of the divorce filing on the credit application) is really, truly gone, and with it the company unless I can figure something else out...

Went to divorce case management conference on the 16th to find out that WH still has not been forthcoming with his financials - so took a deep breath and told attorney to pull the trigger:

- subpoena financials
- subpoena employer for other info
- file interrogatories (extremely blunt and personal questions about adultery)
- set trial date

All of which was done to try to convince him to come to the table and negotiate in good faith with full disclosure -

I took my rings off on my anniversary. It just felt right whereas before it felt wrong. But I feel for them several times a day.

I'm sad. Sad, sad, sad. I miss what was. I miss the work we could have done together to repair things. I miss building the future with him.

Sad.

But...

If my WH "woke up" tomorrow, agreed to go to AA and work recovery (really work it), severed all ties with OW - I would _still_ go forward with D, because this marriage is over for me - and I would need to see months and months and months of changed behavior and attitude (words mean nothing) before I commit to trying to recover - so it's clear to me I need to move on.

Today is his 50th birthday. I woke up this morning, wished him Happy Birthday aloud, cried for 5 minutes, and started to get around for the day. I know I'm more sad just because there are too many frakking milestones this month.

Heading into questions, now...

Since I made this decision to really "pull the trigger", I feel like I'm backsliding - sleep problems are back (insomnia/nightmares), grieving is back, fantasies of a miracle are back (but I do know they are fantasies). I'm more certain than ever of how deeply I love my H - but also know that WH is not he; WH is an alcoholic who has relapsed (whether wet or dry drunk matters not) and in an A - double whammy.

Is this "backsliding" (slip into grief, etc.) fairly typical? Have others experienced it? Intellectually I can see how it would happen - I've taken another step, I've called it quits - so it's another stage of loss - but I've been surprised at the power of it.

I have some more questions but want to stop for now.

I hope everyone is well.

Thanks,

M

Sorry - tried a new thread but didn't work - previous thread "Wavering - alot" is here:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2185101&an=

Miriam,

All very normal. You will be up and down for a long time. I've been in Plan B now almost two years, and it is just getting to the point of some stability for me. Most days I too am done, but then there are days where I do the "what ifs."
And personally, I don't think the sadness of divorce ever really leaves you. It's a life changing event, like a death, that will be with us forever. After all, none of us get married expecting to be divorced. It's probably one of the most traumatic things many of us will go through, and one doesn't get over that easily.

You are still early in the process, so don't make decisions to quickly.

Miriam,

I have come to understand and believe that we all take our own time, our own paths our own pain and experiences to get through this.

Very early on it was explained to me that I was going through grief and there was a process to it. I moved through the various stages intermintently. And I still go through the feelings.

My biggest recommendation is be soft and gentle on yourself. Try not to be in a rush to have "this" over with if you aren't completely done. I think it's Believer that says the most danger to the M isn't the WS as it is the BS, because they move on or aren't willing to recover the M.

Time is your friend and time is your enemy. I remember not ever imaging the feelings, the emotions, the need to have something fixed or done ever changing and that's what exactly happened.

If you are seeing G-d, ask him for the next indicated step and just worry about that. Just worry about today and leave the rest in the future. One day at a time.

You aren't alone, we are right here with you.

Chai & Queenie:

Thanks for the responses.

I love my H, and if I thought there was any possibility for recovery my position would be a different one. But - and its a big but - WH is an alcoholic first, who refused treatment when even he was admitting he "probably" needed it, who chose to destroy his marriage by having an affair to stop him from falling off the wagon - all of which is an excuse because he didn't want to get treatment - which really means he didn't want to quit drinking.

The A is SECONDARY to the alcoholism.

My PBL has two conditions: (1) commit to recovery forever and (2) commit to NC forever. Based on the last 10 years of his behavior, I think (1) would be even harder than (2).

The state that we lived in does not require both people to settle in order for one to divorce the other. The first person who files owns the process, so I had no choice but to file. By hanging in there at home for 4 months after learning about the A - only the last 2 months in a Plan A, since I didn't find MB until very late (my Plan A didn't really have enough time to "take" after 3 months of crying my eyes out) - I saw a $5.5M contract go down the tubes. Had I kicked him to the curb upon learning about it that wouldn't have happened. So I've already paid - quite literally - a tremendous "price" - in addition to all the trauma - for trying to hang in there.

And I've waited another 4 months since. That's not much, I agree with you. But in that time I've done a lot of thinking.

Here's the bottom line for me. This is the second marriage in which he's done exactly the same thing - escalated drinking, then had an affair to get out. He's blamed his first wife for those events for more than 20 years. Now, she's got issues, no question - but the point is that in 20 years he learned nothing about his own patterns. 20 years. TWO DECADES.

He repeated it again, with someone very different (me) - and at almost exactly the same point into the marriage - 6 1/2 years. We all know about the 7 year "itch". This is the point in the marriage where things often fall apart - where people have to remake themselves and their marriage.

But he doesn't want to. He really doesn't. If it gets really hard, he stops wanting it. Worse - he resents it.

So what we have here is a behavior pattern that has been stable (if latent) for more than 20 years on his part. For my part, I'm a lousy wife. My career means alot to me - as his does to him. And he's right - I was checked out for the past two years, pursuing it.

But I also packed up and moved 3 times for him. The last move, we moved to a city/state different from the one my business is in, and he expected me to give up the business and start from scratch (doing what, exactly?) in a town that is very hard to break into. I flew back and forth to the tune of 15K a year for 3 years - after making an agreement with him that even though it meant a terrific loss for me, I would give it all up if the company hadn't "turned" (so that I could be staying home and have someone else run it) by Jan. 09. The company would have turned. I won the damn contract. But he didn't wait. And that was the deal. If he wanted to change the deal, he damn well should have said so.

I gave up adopting two children of my own when I married him and took on his four children. I stayed home and held the family together while he went to war. I got him into the company he's in now. I supported his advancement in the military. I healed his family, paid tuition for his kids, took one of them to Europe, and raised his grandchild in the 4 months AFTER I found out about the A.

I knew we were growing apart. But it was up to me to try to figure out things to do as a couple. He was very loving and romantic on anniversaries, etc., and in general is a loving man - which I always appreciated (and told him so.) But especially since I started traveling all the time, it was all up to me. If I didn't find ways for us to be together, it didn't happen. I came home as often as I could. I asked him over and over again to come to where I was when I was working for a weekend, so we could spend time together as a couple. He managed 2 trips in 3 years and I paid for both of them. How is that "being supportive"?

He admitted he thought of my business as "my hobby". So of course he resented that I was away from home 1/2 the time for a "hobby". Meanwhile I started the business to give myself professional freedom and opportunity I wasn't finding elsewhere, and to buy land in the state he wanted to retire in, to get him there sooner rather than later, and to pay for his kids' tuition. I was driving toward that Jan. 09 date, by which time we'd be reaping the benefits or I'd give up a 20 year career. I busted my [censored]. Some hobby.

He wants something fundamentally different from who I am. He wants a co-dependent, super-enabler, who will be there for him 24/7, who he works with, plays with, sleeps with, drinks with, etc. and who doesn't require him to work on the marriage. I want a spouse who supports me in my career as I support him in his, who will work with me to provide for and love children and grandchildren, who will work with me toward our dreams, and it's a _given_ that he'll have to work on the marriage, as will I. And it's probably going to take Superman, because I'm an eccentric, hyperactive woman with too many brains and too much drive.

But that's not why we fell apart. He didn't wait because the booze and the job both came before the marriage for him.

I have no doubt at all that he felt rejected. I have admitted time and time again that I put the marriage on autopilot, particularly for the last 2 years. My fatigue was overwhelming. I wasn't there sexually. Our communication was lousy and I was at least as bad at it as he was. And the truth is, the more he was drinking, the more I stayed away - and so we spiraled down.

The whole situation was untenable. I was a complete and total fool because I know that people fall back on old behavior patterns when their day-to-day lives aren't working. I set him up for the affair. I'll regret hurting him and I'll regret my part in this as long as I live.

But wanting to hold onto this marriage? Why? This marriage doesn't work. This marriage means being married to an alcoholic who relapses and doesn't give a damn. The odds are terrible that this thing could get put back together again just because of THAT - let alone the A. Yet here I am in Plan B, still trying, even though Steve H. told me that I probably needed to move on because MB doesn't work with alcholics.

This marriage also means I can't be who I am, I can't pursue my passion because his should come first. I know what I'm saying here isn't MB - it may be "anti-MB" (not that I intend it that way - but bulls***. I'm SICK of the same freaking message my whole life - that a "career woman" can't expect to have a decent marriage because the man will expect her to support him - not the other way around. I don't want the other way around. I want a mutually supportive marriage - or none at all. And I'm beginning to think that I am simply unrealistic; that who I am is incompatible with marriage. Period.

I am willing to entirely re-think how I manage my career, I am willing to find other outlets for my creativity - I am willing to stay home. I was working hard to get to the point where I could stay home, which would have begun this past Jan. I was sick and tired of traveling. I missed him, I missed my house, my animals, my youngest stepson (the only one at home). I stayed home for 4 months upon finding out about the A - part of my Plan A to meet his ENs.

I'm rambling and I'm sorry that this is so long. But I really have reached a point where I need this to be over. I will NOT willingly sign up to leave what's left of my financial assets in the hands of a relapsed alcoholic while I delay a divorce and follow through on a 2-year Plan B - not when he's already demonstrated that he was willing to throw millions away in order to be able to sleep with OW with impunity (or so he thought). I am not going to put my life on hold while I wait to see if he'll stop drinking and stop the A. I'm not going to continue pursuing an MB plan when one of the Harleys told me it's probably useless.

And, despite ALL that - I still want to see him healthy and well and happy; I would still work on the marriage if I saw 6 months of sobriety/recovery work and NC with OW.

I just really, really believe that that is NOT going to happen. And if I believe that, why hang on, when all it will do is hurt me more?

M

That is an excellent post, miriam.

Charlotte

Thanks, Charlotte - and thanks again, Chai & Queenie.

I'm sorry for the rant/rave.

I just HATE this. And I know you do, too.

But I also know that all three of us are strong women.

Hang in there (and Chai - I agree with you; I do think you should get a new lawyer; just read your thread. I'll post this there, too.)

MLD

Mirium,

It's OK to ramble. We all need to do that. In fact, in the D care group I went to, they actually told us to do that as therapy. They recommended that we "tell our story" until we were sick of it. And you know what? It worked. I eventually became sick of telling it and hearing it from myself over and over again. So go ahead and tell it. Tell it until you can't stand to hear it anymore.

As for the alcholism, I think Steve is right. Until he wants to quit, there is NOTHING that you can do. A friend of mine just D'd her husband of 40 yrs. She's 67!! Her H was the top financial officer of a huge corporation, but he just couldn't quit drinking. After thousands of dollars, trips to Betty Ford etc. she left. After he retired, all he did was get up, sit in the chair all day and drink. She couldn't deal with it. He told her he didn't understand why it bothered her. I guess most of them don't understand. They are of a completely different mindset I guess. And your WH is now dealing with two addictions, so don't expect much in the way of logic.

As I said before, compared to some of us you are still early in the process and the roller coaster will be tough for some time to come. And as Queenie said, it's a process that we all have to move through at our own pace. You'll know when you are done. No need to rush it though. I'm not a patient person at all, but boy have I learned patience through this. I've finally accepted that it takes time and I can't rush it. I've finally, finally, learned to just take one day at a time. You won't believe us now, but you will get there.

That is shear brilliance.

I propose it become a MB thing too.

Well, kids, it's been awhile.

I did post about 10 days ago over on a PrincessMeggy thread where she was asking about how Plan B ends. I'd just made a decision to write my WH a letter and so I posted some of that (paraphrased) and talked about how I'm moving out of Plan B - ending it, and moving on, even though the way I was doing it wasn't really MB.

Here's the link if you're interested, then a few more comments below:

Miriam's post on leaving Plan B

So, I sent the letter and just yesterday, followed up by sending it in hard copy with a card attached.

I'm sure I'm gonna get pounded for this but I also "upped the ante" when I sent the letter/card, by telling him that I still wanted to work on rebuilding the marriage and that I believed in the power of love. The card was great - started out by saying "We've never been the fairy tale couple", then talked about how the relationship wasn't perfect but it is OURS, and finishes by saying that "I don't know what the future holds in store for us, but I do know that I want you in my life, and that I'd rather be REAL with you than in a fairy tale with anyone else."

So, I'm getting this package together and then think of a blog I wrote a few months ago where I tried to describe this incredible (and really painful) "AH-HA" moment I had about how I'd ruled my life (and relationships) by intellect and had an assumption in place for over 30 years that I could think my way out of anything - any problem, including relationship problems. I talked about how I had suffered from that assumption and how others had suffered as well, and how I had to learn all over again how to "be in the moment" without having things planned out 3 steps in advance, all neatly "packaged".

There's more but I won't bore you with my "Miriam re-boot" experience. The rest of what was in the blog was dreams I'd had about my marriage to my H, and my realization that the marriage has to come first (yes boys and girls, I really didn't get that before - it was another variable in the "equation of my life" - and I hurt my husband badly, by living that way. I can't imagine how depersonalized and unloved he must have felt.) I printed out and included the blog as well.

Anyway, as I was putting this together I thought that I might as well ask - so I said in the card that if he had any interest in rebuilding the marriage, I would like to see him. I proposed somewhere "neutral" & out of town (we live in two different cities so basically this means somewhere that neither of us had to travel to the other's space) and suggested a one-day canoe trip or hike or just an afternoon walk. I told him I didn't want to "work" on anything, just spend time and see how that goes. I also told him the only thing I would not do was work on the divorce - this wasn't about that.

Finally I said that if I didn't hear from him, I would move on and leave him be,which was a reference back to the letter of May 8 (which I described in the earlier post.)

I packaged all this up and put it in Fed Ex - he'll get it tomorrow.

Last night I had a long talk with my daughter (step-daughter, actually) and told her about it. She has been terifically supportive every step of the way and no less now. We talked along time about moving forward and I told her how free I feel - that feeling began when I wrote the original "letting go letter" - which in turn happened after a complete meltdown two days before.

I know that MB doesn't work with active alcoholics - Steve H told me so, my own clinical experience tells me so. I know that addict/alcoholics - especially those who see themselves of victims of all the people around them who somehow aren't being sympathetic enough to them (even as they rip their lives apart) carry a terrific amount of guilt and self-doubt. I know he is a wayward and so I don't have any expectations that he will respond. I don't expect to hear from him. What I do know - and what she immediately understood - was that I had to try to reach him one more time before completing the divorce. In part because I know all that pain is there, I had to reach toward him with forgiveness and love. Whether he responds or not, this is the last "message" I will have left with him. (Mind you, I haven't devitated once from my Plan B conditions that a relationship cannot be re-established without a commitment to address his alcoholism - and the NC with OW condition remains in place as well. No relationship can survive if those things don't happen.)

My daughter commented that I sounded different and more like myself than I had in a long time. She asked me why. It occurred to me that the fact that I have found that "loving place of release" is part (most) of why I'm feeling free. I KNOW that I have tried the best I can (which I'm not saying is great or perfect, it's just the best I can do) to convey to him that I still love him and remain committed to us, and that I know I have to change and am willing to (aka, it's not all on him). I know that I've also conveyed to him as best I can that I am moving on.

All that guilt - and the need to see himself as a victim - may even result in him being angry when he reads that I forgive him - he may see it as arrogant, presumptuous. Although I did ask a couple of times for forgivneess also, if his focus remains on his wounds then he will not be able to really read and understand what I am trying to say - he cannot "hear" me. And it may be that enough time has passed now that he has no love left for me at all, only anger, in which case there is probably no motivation for him to even consider it.

But I have absolutely NO control over any of that. The only thing I have control over is me, and how I want my "last words" to him to be. This is what I choose.

I feel as though MB was a life-saver for me (maybe literally). I really , really, really needed Plan B. I needed to cut all ties, to work on myself, to try to get past the trauma initially, and to start thinking and feeling again. I needed to take the divorce at my own pace. I needed to find a place of peace and safety where I could bawl my eyes out, and scream, and write, and cease functioning sometimes, and struggle, and be selfish and defensive, and break down, and learn -- all without being attacked on the one hand or LB'ing on the other.

I am much sadder. I don't know if I am wiser. I hope so. I do know that I am stubborn enough and bull-headed enough that this may be the only way I could learn how rigid I had become, how much I needed to chnage. That I learned it at such cost to me, to him, to the childre, I regret deeply. I am not reponsible for his choice to have an affair, or for his choice to continue to deny the role alcohol plays/has played in his decisions. But I am responsible for who I am, for the role I played in all of this, and for the way in which I choose to go forward.

That is painful.

And terrifying.

And exhilirating.

And freeing.

Thank you.

- M

Mirium,

At this point, you have done all that you can. I worked with Jennifer and she advised me to write letters similar to what you have done, so while is isn't being completely dark, I think it allows us to get to the point of knowing that we have done all that we can do. Sometimes we need that in order to move to the next step.

Where does it stand with your business at this point?

Thanks for saying that, Chai. I know that it's what I needed to do, whether it is in line with total darkness or not.

Biz - well, not so good. I'm still negotiating down debt - and have done a halfway decent job. The entire goal at this time is to stay alive (and bring money in) long enough (late summer?) to get all debts paid off or otherwise settled and do a "orderly shutdown" of the business, avoiding bankruptcy (both corporate and personal). I think I'm about halfway there.

I'm looking for a job/jobs in the meantime. Timing is tricky because I can't really leave this until I have got it directly on track to go away. I'd actually stay with it longer if I could but at present don't see any way to make enough money to buy health insurance - which for me is must have.

And you? Have you made any more progress on your D? Did you check into another attorney at any point?

- M

WH won't settle. They are still claiming that I have hidden money. WH must be paying a fortune for his atty to do all of the research to come up with yet another dead end. He is now having my business valued. It's worth basically nothing. I get some income out of it, but not a lot. Put it this way - it has kept me from starving. I would be lucky to pay off the debt in liquidation. My hope was that I could hang in until my one big loan is paid off at the end of the year, and then I would have the extra cash flow to pay myself more.

My WH is very hostile and is out for blood, so anything that he can do to make this ugly, he has done. He has made it very plain that he basically hates me. It's baffling for sure.

Anyway, I'm hoping to hang onto my business, basically because of my age and field. I was in the tech field, and after having been away from it for 5 years I know getting a job would not be easy for me. This business was meant to be a source of retirement income for me so I am going to fight hard to keep it. In fact, I am in fighting mode way more than I used to be. He has been so nasty and ugly, and pretty clear that there is no way to salvage the M, so I figure I don't have much else to lose.

And I did check into another atty, however I could not come up with the retainer. My atty has come through for me lately, so maybe he isn't so bad after all.

VERY glad to hear that your attorney has turned around. That can make all the difference. Also glad to hear you're in "fightin' mode". It is horrible to be pushed to that point by someone you love(d) but I really think that it's a good thing to get there when someone is trying to destroy your life.

I can relate to your concerns about biz/career/age, etc. Am 52, used to do tech (system/human factors engineering in the space world) but have been doing mgmt. consulting for several years now (along with communications and strat planning.) I think it would be really hard to get back in. And all of my retirement went into this biz and so it's very hard to see it slip away. There is a slight - REALLY slight - possibility that I might be able to work my way back onto the contract we lost but I'm not getting much traction with the company with whom we were to sub. I also know that they are not going to be funded to the level they were expecting in fiscal 2010 (federal calendar) so it seems like a low probability event. Still, before I pull the plug I'm going to ask the program manager for a lunch - maybe sooner rather than later.

The "long pole" for me is health insurance - I have a chronic condition that requires coverage and it's through him, of course - right now I'm not making enough money to purchase it myself and there's not enough business to get it set up through the company - so at the same time as the rest of this I'm looking for a job.

Re: your STBxH - maybe it's a good thing that he's blowing all this money looking for non-existent money. Don't mean to pry but have you/will you ask for legal fees once you finally get to negotiation and/or court? My STBxH is acting like his ability to track reality isn't so good. There's no sign at present that he's interested in avoiding court, although going could literally cost him his job because of his clearance - but one thing that did get his attention was my "demand" for legal fees. I don't know much about your case, I'm obviously not a lawyer, and your situation is different from mine - but might the money he is spending PLUS the money you're spending might give him pause? Unless he's just nuts, which sounds like a possiblity.

Re: the "hate" thing - yeah, I hear about that all the time through the kids (I've recently had to re-state my boundaries with them - don't need to hear this crap.) Personally I think the lousier their behavior, the more hate they've got built up. Given the choice between hating themselves (and taking responsibility for their actions) its just much easier to hate us. Sucks, but I'm learning not to take it so personally. I don't need to buy into someone else's mental problems - got enough going on without that!

Thanks for your support - you certainly have mine.

Miriam,

Just wondering if you are still around and how things are going.

Let us know....