Ears... are you saying you found out something upsetting? Any red flags about your DH?

*hugs*

So you found that your H was looking up stuff you wish he wasn't?

Jayne, I'm not being judgmental, saying it was bad or wrong, but yes, I saw something that shook me up. I see my MB work, on my LBs and ENs, as something that I can do at my own pace, as long as I am consistent, and it will work out or not work out in the end. I am wondering if I am really mistaken about that, that maybe I am not as serious as my situation needs. I know porn has been an issue, but we'd discussed it, and he said that he doesn't do that anymore. And it was right after we'd met for lunch, when we were getting along great, but he had to rush back because he was "very busy at work."

And then according to the time, after he was done on the computer, he called me at work and blew up at me. Which, okay, I know we have AO issues, but again, I didn't connect the dots. I was all upset that he was upset, and I'd called my sponsor and got some advice on calming down, just take it slow. And then I went to a meeting so I could be more calm for the kids this week, because he left that night. I am mostly concerned that I tend to write off the AO stuff as job stress instead of being consistent in boundaries.

Specifically, I called him back after the AO to say that everything is going to be okay, that we can work throught the situation together, and am thinking maybe that was inappropriate. That it would be more appropriate to say, I understand that you are under stress, but calling me yelling is not the way to handle it. I am also wondering if I'm just justifying the online activity as job stress, and maybe this is a signal that I need to address this, instead of still feeling unwilling. But maybe I would feel more willing later. And how would I address that anyway, over the phone? I tihnk this is something that could wait until he gets back.

But at the same time, jayne, you talk about not being able to discuss anything else under work deadlines, and my H is very much like that. That feels a little unreasonable to me, like a continuation of the old patterns. I huess just a lot to recognize and process.

Cat, it doesn't just log search but the pages and times visited. I didn't go past that one day, as I'm on the work PC and I don't know if maybe even viewing a page with those words on it here will get me in trouble here. I figured if I do decide to check that history again, to do that from home.

O, I'm so sorry!!!

So, do I have the timeline right: Y'all had a good lunch, then he hurried off back to work but then he visited those sites, then he called you out of the blue and had an AO?

Yes that sure sounds connected.

I'm not saying that I could *never* discuss anything else when under stress at work. But I wouldn't be enthusiastic about having a big major discussion about a big over-all issue, one that would be just as pertinent a week or two later.

But this sounds like a current thing that's going on, right now. IMHO it's worth discussing, doesn't need to be put on the backburner until job stress is over. This would be a boundary issue. He had an AO, that if I understand correctly was not initiated by anything you did.

Except now he's out of town, right? Do y'all talk every night when he's away?

Besides, you don't need my approval. You're better at boundaries than I am anyway. My advice is imperfect, ya know.

*hugs*

eo, given the point you are at right now, I think that you should maintain your position of total honesty with him right now. You simply can't (or shouldn't) go back to a relationship where you have to tiptoe around him. Especially if he's not going to be honest with you. If he had told you up front that he had been doing those things, I'd have a different answer, where you could work on things together. But that's not what he's choosing.

Sometimes I really just hate the SF drive men have. We have evolved from caveman days; why can't that have evolved, too?

Yes, that's the timeline, for what showed up on page one.


Nothing I'd done at that moment. Not that I'd deserve an AO if it had been something I'd done at that moment. He got a request from a contact for his resume, that he told me about Friday, and kept asking for my feedback. That if it was for a company out of town, what do I think? Do I prefer him to take a job 100% travel, or do I prefer to relocate with the kids for wherever he gets hired? I said I didn't have enough infromation to make a decision between those two hypotheticals. This has ben an ongoing conversatin. Monday he called me at work angry and demanded an answer at the hypothetical level, at least a first draft response. Not an unreasonable request, but I don't honestly see yet a preference for one of them over the other.


Hit and miss, but I'm glad in general it's a lot more hit than miss. I've been O&H that this is very very important to me, and we plan times to call, before work, at lunch, and in the evening. If he doesn't call, I call, and if I don't get him, I leave a message. The same way, if I don't answer, he leaves a message.


Thanks for being here, jayne. I felt calmer after I typed it out. I remembered what Steve told OH last week, that her H's part wasn't hers to handle! Just focus on her own. I still don't know if my behavior is appropriate or not, but I'll pray on it. I'm going to tell DH that I feel alittle lost here, and I would like to call Steve again for help on my side, and what would make him enthusiastic about that? Maybe like OH did, it would be relevant to share how I've been accountable to the things I commited to. I'll let go of the repsonse, but maybe then H would see that it's not just talking in circles, that he can see the actions that I've been working on. In the meanwhile, I'm glad that I have you all and specifically my Alanon sponsor to help with accountibility.

Cat, just saw your reply. Thanks for pointing out that old habit, that I don't want to go back to smoothing over things again. I don't hate that drive at all, I think it could use some redirection I mean that as a personal preference, not a DJ.

Yes, I agree with cat, you don't want to go back to the habit of trying to smooth things over. Good that you recognize this.


No, I didn't mean to imply you would've deserved it. Just that if something you did triggered it, that's totally different from if he'd just been viewing porn and then chose to pick a fight with you.


Well, I do see some positive in this... he is asking for your input, he wants to work out a solution that includes your wishes... a POJA, if you will. It sounds like he still wants to find a solution that means continuing the marriage.

Steve's advice for me and my situation was valid--perhaps it also makes sense for you too, EO. He didn't want me to get lost in the details of the "how"--just to focus on the "what" for now (the goal), quantify my accountability, and follow through.

OH, thanks for the reminder, focus on the what, the accountability, and follow through. I went home for lunch and had a healthy lunch and took Lily for a brisk walk, burning those calories.


Jayne, I hear you, there is good in today, too. I admire the heck outta Cat, taking all those bold steps. Your own business! Among a lot of other great things, you also wouldn't have to worry about a set location, you two can decide.

Cat I got a repreive from that Google Web History thing. When you go to the Google page, is says You are logged in as .... would you like to log out? And he did, that afternoon. I gave it a shot. It wasn't for me. For all I know, maybe he saw a new email address for me and was mad about that. I guess the main thing that I wanted to know was, he's going to be working out of town through the weekend, was he going to look for trouble up there? But he could just as easily find trouble in the phone book, or at the hotel bar, or wherever. I think maybe it would be more obvious if he were looking for that kind of trouble. That doesn't come in isolation, it comes with a huge lack of respect, and it hasn't been that kind of bad lately. So I feel okay.

I mean when you log out, it stops logging for you.

I understand. I hope you reach an ok place about it, truly.

I hope so, too. I know you don't have those worries about your H, and I think that's great. But he's like calling you on the phone when he leaves work, to connect with you, like you're much more a part of his thought process. They talk about that in How Fix Your Marriage Without Talking About It, thinking of it as a lifeline between you two, that always keeps you connected, and I can see how the UA folks get, like that time on the phone you two get together, acts like that glue, too.

Yeah, I know that now. Honestly, I feel I don't have much a reason to even be here now, cos I've learned so much and changed so much, and I really have a great husband who clearly wants me. So I feel guilty advising other people who probably look at me and think 'who does she think she is?'.

Who does she think she is, huh? I thought it ws called giving back When I started, we had a lot more vets who had rebuilt strong marriages. I think that mixture is important.

We had an awesome weekend, college hunting, using our timeshare to stay for free, loved one college, hated another and another. Gave H SF twice (Friday night and Sunday morning, and latter was me giving him a backrub all over plus SF for almost an hour), I drove nearly all the time while H worked on a work project on his laptop (drove all over Texas to colleges). Anyway, got home at 9pm tonight, watched a show, went to bed, and we cuddled, and I asked him if he would rub my shoulders, since I've got major pain in my shoulders and can't turn my head all the way cos of the stiffness.

Anyway, went to bed and asked him (big thing for me) to rub my shoulders before he went to sleep. He said he didn't want to, cos he had had heartburn all day (I had already given him an antacid pill an hour earlier). So I basically worked the whole weekend, driving and planning and covering all while he worked on his laptop, giving him SF even when I just wanted to sleep, being responsible to make the weekend turn out ok, and when we get home and go to bed (after I feed the dog and get D18 to bed and rub HER back cos it's hurting), and I ask for a shoulder rub just to ease the hurting, he says he doesn't want to, cos he's still got an upset stomach. (how many times have I given him SF despite MY upset stomach or other issues?)

Anyway, he says no, and without thinking, I just say "It figures."

"What do you mean?"

"Nothing." And I pull away.

So he makes excuses why he can't give me a backrub (he never does; if he does, it's for 15 seconds). I pull away from him in bed, and he rolls over to 'cuddle' and give me 14 squeezes (yes, I counted them) on ONE shoulder, and starts falling asleep. I wait to see if he'll wake up; he doesn't. So I get up. "Where are you going?"

"I have things to do."

I should have told him I was getting up because I was tired of being taken for granted, of giving while no one else ever gives, of being the one who keeps everything together (I planned the whole weekend), while no one ever stops to think about what would make ME happy.

Is it just a female thing? Just our job to make sure everyone gets what they need, while we step back and watch and wait and hope that someone will care as much about us as we care about them?

I swear to God, once D18 is set in college, and I have my bills paid off, and I have a way to pay for myself in the future, I'm moving away somewhere to live by myself with a cat for the rest of my life, somewhere in the woods. My idea of heaven.

*hugs*


No it isn't just a female thing, cus I don't do that much (if at all). I don't know if was from me being so sick for so long or what, but DH actually does a lot of stuff, and I feel very free to say when I'm too tired to do something or if my back hurts and I can't do certain things, etc.

I tell you this to let you know that YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE LIKE THAT. It isn't your pre-ordained destiny just because you were born a woman.

And, cat honey... my dear friend... gifts given with expectations are not gifts given freely; they aren't gifts at all. It sounds like you did all those things not because you wanted to, not because you wanted the result of doing them, but because you expected something in return. Well, maybe "expected" isn't the right word but... you did use them to feed your resentment.

Otherwise, the incident of you asking H for a back rub would have been completely separate from what you'd done all weekend. And he would have been free to be H&O and say if he didn't want to.

I understand, he almost never does... and when he does it's just very brief... but still... POJA would say that he shouldn't do it if he wasn't enthusiastic about it.

So you are thinking that since you sacrificed all weekend, he should return the favor, sacrifice, and give you a back rub even if he doesn't want to?

Were you H&O when you were doing all the things you mentioned, and say that you were going to expect him to return the favor and if he didn't, that you would feel resentful?

When he said no to the backrub, rather than a jab, how about some H&O and let hm know how you feel?

Better yet... something I learned in MC... right before DH comes to bed is the *worst* time to ask him for a favor or a conversation or anything. By then he's 30 seconds away from falling asleep. I'd be setting myself up for failure if I asked for anything right then.

(No, he is definitely not usually the cuddle-in-bed pillow talk kinda guy.)

Are you being honest with yourself, about your motives and expectations?

Cat, remember, when one person doesn't usually live up to their side of a POJA, you let that person "go first," so that then when they realize that they are not enthusiastic, you can renegotiate before you already did your part. Here, you all didn't POJA. How would you feel about saying, "My shoulders are killing me. How about a shoulder rub like the killer ones I give you, and then I'll do your back?" Then, when he says no thanks, you won't have added this to the Wall of resentment. And I agree with what jayne said, this was/is a great opportunity for you to practice O&H.

No, I never even thought about 'getting something in return' at all during the weekend. The only resentment I had at all is that I had brought MY laptop too because I have a side job I needed to work on, but I never got to because he was always taking his; but his work is shaky right now, so I have no problem him spending as much time as he needs working on it.

I didn't even think about him doing anything for me or not wanting to do something (except for wanting to sleep instead of giving him SF yesterday morning, and I'm not ready to work on that issue yet) all weekend. It's just that when we went to bed, I couldn't get comfortable cos my neck hurt, so I just blurted it out, which you already know is unusual for me. When my family asks me to help them, I just do. I don't think about it; if they ask, they need something, I figure. So I guess I want the same consideration, but I know it's not my place.

Maybe backrubs is a hot, complicated subject for me because when I was growing up, after my dad left and my mom's psoriasis got so bad that she was completely covered in scales (it worsens with stress), she asked me to give her massages and rub her down with baby oil every night. So I did that for several years. Maybe I'm making too much of it.

Or maybe I'm just frustrated because, IMO, everyone who cares about someone else should 'want' to do for them. And that kind of caring just isn't in his vocabulary. Jayne, I think it was you a long time ago who said, if you have to ask them to do something, it's not worth getting.

I know I should have told the truth. I thought about it. But I was just too exhausted to deal with it. But I don't understand what you say. If I say that 'how about' you listed, and he says no, I'd still be resenting it. I didn't ask for the backrub in the morning when he wanted his own backrub and SF; so if I asked for it at night and offered to rub his back again, I'd still be resentful, because he'd still be getting the better part of the deal - two backrubs in one day to my one.