I don't disagree with any of that. I just don't think these things have anything to do with whether or not he loves TM.

Thank you for your response to my post. Below, I'm replying to the one you posted in response to Cat.



Please do not divorce based on your emotions. When you "feel" ready to do so, you will be perpetuating poor boundary enforcements and not helping yourself.

Divorce is the final boundary enforcement in marriage...if you do not do the several enforcements before it (whether you feel like doing them or not), then you will continue this pattern into your next relationship/marriage.

Every human is capable of change. It's a choice, not a condition. God never made no junk ever. You know this.

SA is NOT about porn/sex...it's about secrets, sickness, shame and false protection. Just as emotional eating isn't about food...

If you live by the belief, "I feel therefore I must be" then you are not in reality. You're half of not feeling loved. You do things in yourself, i.e., create and maintain resentment, which cuts out love deposits, intimacy and honesty. When you're dishonest, you rob love deposits from your own bank. You won't feel loved. Doesn't mean someone else isn't loving you with all they have.

Part of your half of the dance with an addict is that you reinforce the cycle...you are HELPING him stay in the addiction...and I know you don't want that. No one does.

Each belief you choose and act from matters. Do it carefully, consciously...with integrity. Not from your feelings.

Feelings follow actions. Revoke your permission to react to your feelings (be guided by them like omens or portents) and you WILL make healthy boundary enforcements. The feelings stop you because you have been trying to manipulate your H for a long time...lay it down. That's fantasy. Reality is, your choices matter as much as his do.

It's not all or nothing. A big part of the sucker-punched pain from his porn comes from deception. Commit to YOU being radically honest...to sharing your stuff as yours...because your own self-deception has hurt you, continually...break that habit.

Your H may LOVE having a partner and FEAR having a mother. Most SA's have sexual abuse in their background. These are deep secrets untold, not acknowledged, and often dismissed by themselves. They matter. You aren't a symbol (you're real); you still symbolize. He was attracted to you for the very things he may hate at this point...his struggle, not yours. You are not making his feelings...he has them.

You have yours. I have no doubt he mirrors issues you've been faced with all your life...our challenges recur in different forms. I'm guessing that you have no predetermined progressive boundary enforcements around yourself in your life.

This is your time. A deep struggle, you're in it together...what you do now, what you seek, study, realize and change...changes everything.



You have no right to express your stuff...you have the ability. You do not have the right to have anyone validate your stuff...you will crave that most when you are doing it the least.

Your feelings are valid...they are information to you, about you, coming from inside you, from your beliefs and actions. Your inherent, unchangeable responsibility is to know what the information is, where it's coming from and to share that with your partner. That is intimacy. Doesn't require him to validate, acknowledge, soothe, fix, change or make. He may listen, nod, stay present (which is validation, acknowledgment). He cannot change, make or fix your feelings. They aren't broken.

I asked you to learn about verbal abuse...heighten your awareness and comprehension of what it is...and formulate your predetermined progressive boundary enforcements when you can tell the difference between sharing and abuse.

Telling you to shut up...the response..."You are wishing I would not speak right now, or not share what I'm sharing with you right now?" Calm, reasonable...if he says "I want you to shut up!" that's not abusive. Acknowledge. "Good to know." You can choose then to shut up or not. Most likely, your anger inside surges...so your first boundary enforcement around yourself is to NOT speak, continue conflict, when you're flooded. It's not respectful or loving to do so. So you do your enforcement...you state you're flooded with brain chemicals from anger, that you're going to remove yourself for 20 mins and will resume the discussion then.

Then you do it.

That's your responsibility...not his.

The silent treatment is verbal abuse.



Why would you guess at something so important? It's not the price of tuna. If you require others to earn your love, then they will also earn your punishment...and you will NEVER KNOW you are loved. You will be doing harm and damage to others and to yourself. Cat knows.

"If you loved me, you wouldn't <blank>" is an SD and emotional blackmail. You are defining another person, which is only that person and God's province. "I don't believe you act from love when you <blank>" is honest, real and has ownership, reality.

Then flip it over..."I don't feel loved by you when you verbally abuse me." YOU certainly don't feel loving when you verbally abuse him, do you? Our feelings follow our OWN actions...and when we act from love (make it our boundary), act from respect, then we FEEL loved and respected.

He doesn't feel loved by you at all, TM. Doesn't that sear your guts? Did mine. His experience is valid...didn't mean I wasn't loving him all along. Meant he didn't feel it. You guessing he doesn't love you is like stabbing someone's soul. Stop it. Don't do that.

Your job s to know and be known...no guessing. No DJs. No assuming yourself into harming others and justifying harming them by THEIR actions. Look at yours.

He does and doesn't do. The assumption (DJ) comes in when you assume WHY he does/doesn't. For now, don't look at that...you aren't safe enough to be trusted to know his whys/why nots.

Make yourself safe for you to know and understand first...focus on what YOU do and don't do. Find out your own whys and share them.

Don't do this, though, if you don't want an intimate, real, partnering marriage. If you just want smooth waters, only-this-far-and-no-further, as long as others behave right I'm happy kinda marriage, then divorce when you feel like it.

You know the pain of huge loss...you know we grieve every day for what has happened, is happening...and what didn't happen, isn't happening. Your H may have wanted so much to feel loved by you like you loved your first husband...and secretly believes he's second best, or even, last place. Both have false payoffs for him...not reality...both torpedo real intimacy, which is his deepest fear. Do you want to know, or just judge, guess, DJ and do more harm?

We cannot build our self-esteem when we do not enforce our boundaries around ourselves. Cannot happen. Self-esteem only comes from self...not others. Begin enforcing and your self-esteem, self-acknowledgment and validation will rise again...you've deprived, abused yourself in this way for too long. You crave freedom from this harm...and see it as coming solely through H...clear up your side...treat yourself better.

Figure out to yourself all that porn symbolizes to you. I'm really glad you said you love your DSS's...they have inherited, been handed down, the behaviors to tear their lives up...what they least want.

Just as yours were handed down to you. We either step up or step off...and the lesson comes again, in different ways. Understanding, not changing others...

Acceptance is NOT approval. Two different things.

Understanding is not approval.

Thank you for seeking out help and for posting. You ripple...others are affected...

which reminds me...you said it has to be about you because you're affected...my paraphrase...

We cannot make others feel...they feel. We are all affected by their actions, not their motivations. You may believe you are MORE hurt when they intend to hurt you and do so in their actions. You aren't. Check it out. Takes a high level of intimacy to know their motivations...what is theirs is truly theirs...

until you make it your about...then it really does hurt more...and the weapon is in your hands.

LA

I have been reading about gaslighting...verbal abuse as suggested. I came across this article and put in bold the issues that are present in my marriage. I wanted to post this here to refer back to while learning.





When thinking of Verbal Abuse we tend to envisage the abuser hurling insulting names at the victim, and also using critical, insulting or humiliating remarks (e.g. you've got a mind like ditchwater; you're stupid; etc.),

While this obviously does happen, there are many more forms of abuse, other than name-calling.

'Insideous' abuse..Which is much harder to explain and describe..Has been called 'ambient abuse..'Covert' abuse, and also 'gaslighting' and 'crazymaking'....

The (self confessed abuser)..Who has written about abuse and narcississtic abuse from his own behaviour, and personal perspective...Sam varkin...describes this kind of abuse as being like the following..

Ambient Abuse:

'Ambient abuse is the stealth, subtle, underground currents of maltreatment that sometimes go unnoticed even by the victims themselves, until it is too late. Ambient abuse penetrates and permeates everything – but is difficult to pinpoint and identify.

It is ambiguous, atmospheric, diffuse. Hence its insidious and pernicious effects.

It is by far the most dangerous kind of abuse there is.

It is the outcome of fear – fear of violence, fear of the unknown, fear of the unpredictable, the capricious, and the arbitrary.

It is perpetrated by dropping subtle hints, by disorienting, by constant – and unnecessary – lying, by persistent doubting and demeaning, and by inspiring an air of unmitigated gloom and doom ("gaslighting").

Ambient abuse, therefore, is the fostering, propagation, and enhancement of an atmosphere of fear, intimidation, instability, and unpredictability.

There are no acts of traceable 'explicit' abuse, nor any obvious manipulative settings of control. Yet, the feeling remains, a disagreeable foreboding, a premonition, a bad omen.

In the long term, such an environment erodes the victim's sense of self-worth and self-esteem. Self-confidence is shaken badly.

Often, the victim adopts a paranoid or schizoid stance and thus renders himself or herself exposed even more to criticism and judgment. The roles are thus reversed: the victim can be considered mentally deranged and the abuser – the suffering soul.'

Gaslighting:

Gaslighting is the systematic attempt by one person to erode another's reality, by telling them that what they are experiencing isn't so -and, the gradual giving up on the part of the other person.

Gaslighting takes two - one person who needs to be in control to maintain his sense of self, and the other, who needs the relationship to maintain her sense of self and is willing to acquiesce.

The Gaslight Effect happens when you find yourself second guessing your own reality, confused and uncertain of what you think, because you have allowed another to define reality and tell you what you think -- and who you are.

Gaslighting can be maddening in the early stages and soul destroying when it fully takes hold.

In my book The Gaslight Effect , I describe what it is like to be on the receiving end of this type of emotional abuse - in love relationships.

The Gaslight Effect names this insidious type of emotional abuse, that has, to date, been too much under the radar - and, in naming and understanding this abuse, it can be recognized and healed.

The good news is that when you are fearless, you are empowered and you can heal or opt out of gaslighting or any other destructive relationship dynamic'. (Sam Varkin).

Another form of 'ambient' abuse..Is 'witholding'..

Witholding:

Withholding (the silent treatment), countering (refuting or invalidating the spouse's statements or actions), discounting (putting down her emotions, possessions, experiences, hopes, and fears), sadistic and brutal humor, blocking (avoiding a meaningful exchange.

Diverting the conversation, changing the subject), blaming and accusing, judging and criticizing, undermining and sabotaging, threatening, witholding affection, sex, undermining name calling, forgetting and denying, ordering around, denial, and abusive anger. Engineering impossible situations, control by proxy and ambient abuse.

Conversation may often be witheld, and affection, and company. This also can often involve a refusal to acknowledge your existance, refusing to talk to you, or to discuss issues, Which can also be called 'BLANKING'..

Blanking:

(A dictionary definition of blanking: Can mean to remove, as from view; obliterate: Devoid of activity, interest, An empty space or place; a void).

In abuse terms, the word 'blanking' means to 'negate' another. To refuse to engage, and to refuse to listen, or to acknowledge you.

Blanking' is also a very painful form of abuse...Blanking involves ignoring you..Sometimes for hours and days, or possibly for weeks on end.

It is designed to break you..It is designed to see evidence of their control of your emotions, so that you will begin to crack..which also 'proves' to them that they have a big effect on you...

That gives an abusive person, a great sense of 'control' over you..It is also designed to affect you emotionally, to 'stress' you out, and to hurtfully abandon you, and because this makes you feel totally emotionally hurt and confused..Thats the plan..

Blanking is also done to convey the message, That "You are not worthy of my time, affection ect.." It is also done to you to make you wonder what you did so wrong to actually have a person ignore you, and to strive to aquiese to the abuser.

By ignoring someone a message is sent that you matter so little that they cant even be bothered to talk with you, this also invalidates you, and can leave you feeling very confused, hurt, abandoned and bewildered.

The cold quiet treatment is often preferred by abusers because this allows the abused person to read in all kinds of meaning while the abuser says nothing and then he feels that he can be more 'in control', and also cannot be accused of doing anything substantive, wrong.

Invalidation can be another of the most damaging form of 'psychological' abuse:

Invalidation:

Invalidation is to reject, ignore, mock, tease, judge, control or diminish someone's feelings. It is an attempt to control how you feel and for how long you will feel it.

Invalidation kills confidence, creativity, individuality... and if we do not find a way to re-empower our individual and collective lives and to connect with our humanity it will slowly erode all that we have built, into a tower of sand.

Lying:

Lies are a big form and part of ambient abuse. Lies totally break and destroy trust, as much as every other form of abuse breaks your trust, (like any time you're pushed, called names, or get ignored, or get deliberately hurt and let down badly).

They lie because it's easier, and it keeps you off-balance. And they knows it will emotionally hurt you. Lying is also a form of invalidation.

Some of the biggest lies of all that they try to tell you can be....'I didn't hurt you'...'It never happened'...And 'you have it all wrong'.

All these forms of abuse are 'crazymaking'.

Crazymaking:

When you are told to do two opposite things and then chastised because you did one and not the other, that is an example of crazymaking.

Crazymaking is a guaranteed way to control someone because you can never be right. If a person requires two opposite things from you, point out that this is impossible and that you cannot do this.

Crazymaking can happen in a variety of ways. For example, in a discussion a person might say two opposite things. You are lead to believe that he changed his mind and you accept the last statement as what was meant. But later in the week, when the issue comes up, he says, 'Well, I already told you such and such' which was the first thing he/she said. In short the discussion with you was set up so that no matter what happened the person can say that he did what was agreed.

Crazymaking really 'will' make you crazy after a while. One of the most difficult things about identifying and leaving someone who is a psychological and emotional abuser, is the 'crazy making' aspects of emotional abuse.

REALLY successful abusers hide their abuse incredibly well. They know how to twist and manipulate language, situations and people. They most often present an exterior of calm, rational self-control to others, when in reality, they may be severely emotionally abusive to you behind closed doors, where they try to control 'you', and drive 'you' to LOSE control.


They might say that they already agreed to something that they had not agreed to or say that they apologized for something that they never apologized for. They may say you did or they did something that never happened. Or that something very hurtful they did, never happened. Often making out that you got it all wrong..and that you are 'crazy'.

Abusers who practice this are also masters at not getting caught. They often say negative things with a big smile. They can subtly sabotage your values, your work, and the things you enjoy with mixed statements such as 'you're a really nice person but....'

If an abuser can cause YOU to lose control, it proves how healthy HE is, and how much control he has.

Also so he can say, explicitly, or implicitly 'there you go again, losing it, crying and yelling. I'm not the one who needs therapy, 'you are!'.

Unfortunately, if an outsider sees the abuse at all, often all they see is your hurt often expressed in what they might think is an unreasonable outburst from you, and NOT see the abuse that triggered it.

It may make you feel as if you have had all your lifelines withdrawn, as if you are going crazy, because often nobody could believe that this seemingly charming, 'nice', helpful, and apparently calm man, could be so incredibly psychologically cruel and deliberately hurtful.'

'ABUSE MAY BE WORSE WHEN ALL 'SEEMS' NORMAL'.

Ambient abuse is very confusing and painful.

These kinds of abuse are just as destructive as any other kind yet it is very slippery, hard to pin down, hard to locate and hard to explain, or to describe or talk about.

This very nature of this abuse can also make it very difficult to get support and understanding from others, or to prosecute an 'ambient' abuser in court.

The abuser can always deny that he was being abusive and that you just 'misunderstood'.

Examples can be very difficult to describe to others, or to convey in words.

Which makes being abused in these ways, an even MORE difficult and painfullly, confusing, 'crazymaking' and lonely experience..

Just Learning

Thank you for your observations, opinions and suggestions.
I am changing my focus to the important issues and to work on me.
I am in the process of reading and learning.
I am starting to read the Harley's articles and have started a list of books to purchase.
I am determined to learn as much as I can to evaluate my marriage before making any major decisions.

TM

Thank you LA for your help. You have given me a lot of information to ponder. I will be referring to this post again and again.

Honesty and Openness is my #1 need. My H does not fulfill the need even though I've communicated to him the importance several times. I know that I can't make him fulfil my need, only tell him what I need.

I'm working on myself and evaluating my marriage.

By H choosing to be untruthful, there is a lack of trust and feelings of security are being destroyed.
I feel pain and frustration which causes AO. I own this. I can't cope with this. I have a problem enforcing my boundaries and this is one of them. This is the main reason for our separation. I finally told him that I will not tolerate his dishonesty any longer.

I need to learn how to deal with this issue so this never happens again. (I have Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend on order) Any help will be appreciated.


Honesty and Openness

Most of us want an honest relationship with our spouse. But some people have a need for honesty and openness -- it gives them a sense of security and helps them become emotionally bonded to the one who meets that need.
Those with a need for honesty and openness want accurate information about their spouses' thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities and plans for the future. If their spouse does not provide honest and open communication, trust is undermined and the feelings of security can eventually be destroyed. They cannot trust the signals that are being sent and feel they have no foundation on which to build a solid relationship. Instead of adjusting, they feel off balance; instead of growing together, they feel as if they are growing apart.

Honesty and openness helps build compatibility in marriage. When you and your spouse openly reveal the facts of your past, your present activities, and your plans for the future, you are able to make intelligent decisions that take each other's feelings into account. And that's how you create compatibility -- by making decisions that work well for both of you simultaneously.

But aside from the practical considerations of honesty and openness, those with this need feel happy and fulfilled when their spouses reveal their most private thoughts to them, and feel very frustrated when they are hidden. That reaction is evidence of an emotional need, and if that is the way you feel, include honesty and openness as one of your most important emotional needs.

O&H is your number one...

do not focus on him meeting this EN...

Insure YOU are not crossing this boundary in yourself first.

Are you open and honest? When you aren't, what's your progressive, predetermined boundary enforcement?

Usually, what we crave most, we are least giving.

LA

You can cope...you survive every untruth, lie of omission. Don't lie to yourself by saing you don't cope. You permit yourself AO when he lies to you.

There is two sides to lying..one to tell the lie, and one to accept the lie. I hear you saying you no longer are ionger going to choose to believe his statements. You're going to hear them, accept that he believes them to be true at the moment, and not believe or trust in them being true right now.

That's what I did. When I told DH what I realized, my new choice...he said, "Ouch. That hurts. But I understand."

Even now, years later, here mostly I believe what he says...there are times I choose not to...I permit myself to think on it further...they are rarer times now, since DH now owns up when he lies immediately.

Has allowed us deeper intimacy.

You lied to yourself above with your fantasy that you can make it so it doesn't happen again. I don't believe you. I doubt you can make it so that you don't lie every again.

Maybe you meant you will make it so HE doesn't lie to you ever again...though others will...children, parents, best friends...and you will continue lying to yourself and to them.

We catch our partners in lies...when we live with them, are intimate with them because we're sharing our lives together.

Our marriages can continue without trust, temporarily. In reality, either partner is constantly rebuilding trust or distrust, up and down. It's ongoing. Learning to separate your belief in your partner from your belief in his actions is tough...necessary, respectful, warranted.

You still gotta begin with yourself. I'm sure the Boundaries began the same way their "Boundaries in Marriage" that I have...where it shows you where you begin and end, what you can control and cannot...and how acting outside of God's design of humans creates a lot of pain, hardship and repeating our injuries, with our own knives.

You cannot make him not lie, not lie by omission...and you certainly cannot stop yourself from doing it when your focus is on him. You have an automatic belief in other's words, maybe? I did. I had the belief, "If you say it as fact, it is one." We know that's not true because most of what we say is about us, our emotions, what we think, believe, perceive...which aren't facts.

They just are.

Right now.

The more I looked at my thousands of tiny beliefs inside, the more I realized how much I hid in my DH...focused on and lived in his stuff...in judgment, control and fear. Anywhere else but living in our stuff is judgment, control and fear...we aren't home.

Come home.

LA

""Very true! He cares more about his happiness than mine. He is a selfish person but he tells me that I am. I have done everything possible to make him happy. I always put him and his needs before mine or anyone else. I recently did the 30 day husband encouragement challenge and all I got was a pack of lies.""

Look at this. Instead of asserting your needs and wants in a good way you put his needs before yours or anyone elses. You have not even tried to assert your needs. Trying to stop his behavior is one thing but trying to get him to meet your needs is yet another.

Have you asked him to have sex with you every night for a week?
Have you asked him to have sex with you every SAturday night?
Have you talked about the lack of sex and what you two can do together about that?

These are things you need to hash over before leaving him in the dust. See if he will attempt to meet your needs. Beleive me if you are having lots of sex, he will have less time to do the porn thing.

What do you have to lose, try it. Also try and be assertive in other areas too besides the bedroom. It takes both partners to assert thier needs in a marriage. Not just one. Quit being so much of a giver. Start to TAKE for a change.

Okay, so you've already told H that you are considering divorcing him, is that correct? You've said that you always put him first, even though you know you will create resentment when he doesn't give you the response you desire...and that you put him first to get him to respond in the way you want to meet your ENs, is that correct?

And you've told him that you see yourself as the strong one in the marriage.

That's radical honesty. Did you find the article on The Giver/Taker yet? I took time to link it for ya (which I didn't do before)...

The Giver and The Taker

A good gauge to see how much your own resentment affects your half of the marriage is to follow this line of reasoning...

I put my DH first because I want to see him happy.
When he shows his happiness, I feel happy, too.
I want my DH happy, even if I have to be the stronger one, do more work, and have resentment.
Sometimes, I resent my DH's happiness. Seeing him happy irritates and ignites me. He never puts me first, even though that's what I do to make him happy, he's unwilling to do this to make me happy.

If he would just do, then I would be happy.

It's a cycle that loses it's intent (which was acting from love, by your own choice)...because you're dependent on the outcome...and you have no control over the outcome...over his response.

NO ONE wants you to put them first if you will then resent them. It's toxic and not intimate. It's a walking lie. Giving to get implodes over time. Because it is an act of betrayal...you're doing to get someone else to do/think/feel/believe. It's disrespectful.

This doesn't mean what ticks you off about your H is unreasonable or wrong...or that you're the bad one. Means that you're on the course to continue to create, build and maintain resentment, which isn't reality, isn't healthy, and harms your union.

I know...I was there, too. I remember. I struggled very hard to get my DH to meet my ENs, quit LBing and make it so I felt loved, cherished, number one.

Well heck...how could he do that? Really? I kept making myself last place...putting him and the kids first, doing my resentment dance...and pointing my finger at him. And there really were four fingers pointing back at me. I wasn't radically honest with myself (I bought my old story, did this old routine automatically), so I wasn't in my marriage, either.

How could I be?

LA

Ouch, Truth’, it sounds like you have a very rocky marriage. It has been a long time since I read a situation so bad as yours.

First of all, he simply needs to be open and honest with you. Without honesty you really cannot have a viable marriage. You deserve that. Open up to him. Talk to him.

Secondly, you mention SF, but I am not sure whose need this is. Do you need more SF? Or does he want more sex? If it is bothering you that you are not having sex, then it is a problem. He needs to fulfill your sexual needs.

Thirdly, don’t concentrate on porn. Yes, I know that it is a nice big target that a lot of women would like to blame; they blame porn, and not their husbands. The idea is that if porn goes away, then the problems in marriage go away. Wrong. The problem actually go up -- the guy will simply hide the porn and lie to his wife about it. The fact is, that pretty much all guys like porn. A woman who thinks that she can get her husband to give up looking at dirty pictures will find herself for a rude awakening -- it is a fight that she can hardly win. Women simply do not understand how important porn is to guys. Sorry. If there is a silver lining is that the use of porn does not have anything to do with how attractive his spouse is, or how sexually fulfilling his relationship with his spouse is.

Fourthly, I suggest that if you want to work on your marriage, then the two of you need to have open communication. Take sometime out of your schedules, and sit down with each other for about 30-60 minutes every week. It will do wonders for your mutual understanding of each other’s needs.

Good luck! You have your work cut out for you.

How are you doing truth?

HI BH, I'm numb..thanks for asking.

My H and I both got counseling and worked things out.

Fast forward 4 years....

We've had some stressers that have been challenging for both of us. My H started acting strange such as mumbling, slamming doors, being rude and disrespectful to me and my family.

I put a keylogger on H fairly new laptop. I found that he has a checking and savings account in his name only. (At a different bank than ours)

I found that he has part of his payroll direct deposited into his account instead of our joint.

I found that he paid for a P O Box at our local post office.

Last but not least, lots of porn everyday.

I'm not angry this time and I haven't reacted. He does not know that I know yet.

I'm so sorry. It hurts horribly.

So he's never gave up his SSL (secret second life).

Do you know what you want to do?

[/quote]
I'm so sorry. It hurts horribly.

So he's never gave up his SSL (secret second life).

Do you know what you want to do?[/quote]

Thanks BH for your empathy. Yes it does hurt horribly and very disappointing.

No he apparently never gave his SSL up, but he wouldn't even go near a computer at home for about 2 years.

I don't know what I want to do yet. Any advice?

Have you thought about Plan B?

Have you read this?
When to Call it Quits #1

How are you sleeping? Eating?

This might help also.

Please listen to these radio clips on what are the reasons for divorce.

Radio clip at 5:45 When to call it quits
Segment #2

Have you read the articles on neglect?

Have you and your spouse read Dr. Harley's 10 basic concepts.