it seems to me that both of you need to work on both your M and yourselves. Lets be blunt... call a shovel a spade.. both of you are adulterer's... both of you CHOOSE to have affairs while married.

One does NOT excuse the other or lessens the guilt of either of you.

You BOTH will need to accept that and that no matter who did what before in the M... affairs top the lot of it and you need to start over in a new M where you both can meet the needs of the other.
I feel you both NEED to contact Dr Harley and make an appointment to work on a recovery plan.... at least you may be able to get your M on a recovery path if you both want that while working on yourselves.

You both have children who need a mother and father hopefully living together as a family... and children are WORTH being a reason to work on a M and staying together.. kids do much better all over with both parents in most situations.. not all of course .. but most.
A lot of kids do NOT eventually understand ... thats a very sad truth.... they end up thinking they did something wrong to cause the M to break up.... one of the reasons to be honest with kids and tell them the truth.

They do know about it and they know the other woman personally. It will be hard telling them if my wife and I get back together because they've said some blunt things about her recently. The only positive note is that the OW is moving out of the country in a few months.

Something doesn't feel right there...if you have tried to reconcile and whatnot they should HATE your OW, unless she has been painted as the angel and your wife as something else.

You need to get counseling and follow the MB course to the letter.

Best thing to do is to come up with a plan to talk to your wife. Write it down if you need to. Come up with what all you need to talk about. Give yourselves a chance to come up with a plan for your marriage. If you both want to be together then you have a chance to try. Be there for each other during your conversation. If you need to stay split, then at least you know how you both feel. If you talk then you know you gave it a shot. There is also counseling, if you can get her to go. (My husband won't so I know how hard that can be) But talk about the future and the present, let the past lay where it is. Offer to wipe the slate clean see if you fall back in love.

You cannot just wipe the slate clean. The slate has been shattered by the affair and must be put back together, and even then there will still be dirt on it!

There is a chance to start over if they are both willing. I'm not saying it won't take work, everything takes work. But some people need to take a chance and start over. I'm not saying that will work, its just an idea. You can't shoot me for giving an idea.

GoddessLacey, have you read any of the MB material? The focus and goal of Marriage Builders is to CREATE ROMANTIC LOVE by using the concepts. Of course they are not in love now, but that does not mean they can't fall in love. That is the whole POINT! Romantic love does not happen by osmosis, there is a formula that must be practiced.

If you want to know about Marriage Builders, I would start with His Needs, Her Needs and follow up with Surviving an Affair before you commence giving newcomers advice here. It will expand your understanding greatly.

I have read a lot of the articles on MB. The books however no, I don't have the money for it. I realize that it is possible to fall back in love, and I hope that happens in my marriage as well. But they can't force it. If two people aren't in love one can't force the other. It takes time, and it may not be the best for them to try to force the situation, that could make it worse. They have to give themselves a chance to figure out what they want. I hate to say it but not every marriage is going to make it or is meant to make it. If mine is over, as much as it will hurt, I will accept it because I can't force my H to love me. And I'll have to realize that maybe my H and I are not meant to be together any more. Its as simple and as complicated as that.

GL, just a suggestion, avail yourself of the books before you give advice here. No one ever said to "force it." The whole program of MB revolves around the concept of falling in love again. So, just because a couple is not in love today, does not mean they can't be in the future. There is no reason this man can't have that.

I didn't say he can't. I am sorry if you think my advice is lacking in the education from the books offered here. But I don't think that I should be silenced because I offer different suggestions. I did not say that just because they are not in love today they can't be in the future. Read my post, at the moment my H and I are in that situation. And I hope to regain what we had a few many years ago. I didn't say that Fred could not get that back. I was merely suggesting another way. I'm sorry that its offending you in some way. But even if I had read all of the books suggested here, I would still feel the same way. I am simply offering a different route. Forgive me for having a mind of my own.

GL, please keep in mind that this man is here to learn about MARRIAGE BUILDERS, hence the name on the door. He came here to find out about MB so he can save his marriage and I don't think he is here to learn about your feelings or my feelings. There is no reason that he can't fall in love again and get back together just like anyone else.

He is not here to learn a "different route" but the Marriage Builders route.

I am sorry I thought people came here for suggestions. I guess I'm in the wrong place. I am sorry Fred that your thread has become ML teaching me what you want. I hope that everything works out for you Fred and that if you need any other suggestions I will give you my email address. I am sorry that I am not fully educated on the Marriage Builders way and that I offered other suggestions on how to possibly save your marriage or how you can be happy. I am sorry that I was offering suggestions that are unusual and might or might not work for you. But I really do hope that you are able to find your peace.

See Lacy, what you suggested is a huge No-No. That's how EAs start-- inviting a man that you are not married to to discuss his marriage with you in a private setting. If you were more familiar with the MB concepts, you would understand this.

You might do well to listen and learn for awhile. Who knows? You might pick up some good insights for your own marriage instead of basing everything on "feelings."

No one is jumping on you, but most of us have been around for awhile (and married for awhile) and kinda know what we're talking about.

What is the difference between these two paragraphs? They sound like the same line of thought to me.

Lacey is in a lot of pain and wants to save her marriage. What is wayward about that?

And Fred, for the record, I thought you were just being practical when you asked about your credit rating...I didn't think you were placing that above anything else.

Charlotte

I am sorry I meant no harm. I don't want to do anything but help. Frankly I have helped another man decide to get a divorce and how to become more involved with his children and eventually move on with his life from his previous marriage. It was all done anonymously. And he helped me with some of what I was going through at the time as well. There was no affair, just simply two people helping each other. Nothing more, nothing less. I am taking everything that is said here and learning, that is why I am still interacting with the threads. I am taking it all in and I will use every suggestion given to me until I find the right one that fits my situation. However at first all I got was the same thing over and over, and I was hoping that there would be a little bit of difference in everyone's answers. Because what worked for you may not work for me. Not saying I won't try it, but it may not work, hence the need for varying suggestions. But you know what this thread is not about me, its about Fred. So lets let Fred take what ever advice that he wants. Frankly I'm aware that I have offered unusual advice, but that advice was directed to Fred. If he wants to take it, fine, if not, fine. I am sorry that it differs from the opinions of all of those that have been here much longer than I have. But maybe a fresh take on things might not be such a bad idea. I only hope that Fred gets the advice that he needs since this is his thread.

Just a small TJ to GL and it may help Fred too.

Why did you get similar responses from numerous people here GL? very simply .... BECAUSE IT WORKS!!!

It works because it has been tried over and over and variations excised when they did not work. It works because the people are not just test subjects in a uni somewhere but rather just ordinary couples & individuals like you and me with issues in their marriages who used what has been made available by Dr Harley.

We have worked with what Dr Harley has developed and yes believe me it does sound first up to be so against your own experiences and knowledge ... I don't live in the US and it was to me a bit of lunacy at first... it sounded so gimmicky .. but did I eat my own thoughts on that .... it simply WORKS far more often than any other plan I have seen to save and build marriages. It helped save mine from my own STUPID SELFISH actions.

Marriage takes work and it will not just magically be made right. For yourself I think you and your H should go to a MB weekend and be prepared to have your own understanding of how things work challenged. No one can promise you it will work... but it has a far better record of success than any other system.
The packaging just makes it easy for people to access and use.. that's all. Don't let that put you off.

Fred I recommend you listen to the advice on MB and even better... ring and make an appointment with one of the Harley team to advise you. You need to start somewhere.. start there.

Fred, please get Surviving the Affair if you don't have it already. It has great insight regarding recovering from and preventing affairs. LoveBusters is an excellent book to help you interact with you wife in a way that will help you fall back in love with each other. MelodyLane has been here a long time and is fully recovered. She doesn't pull any punches and she is fiercely pro-marriage. Which is what we need at this website. These techniques do work! They are not just another way to look at things. They really work if both parties are willing to try.

Thank you for this advice. I will definitely come up with a plan and write it down first. I've learned a lot about myself from reading the other threads here, too... especially from those of you talking about your WS and the affair.

Last night I invited my wife and kids out to dinner and afterwards we decided to go see a movie. It was a nice evening and everything felt good. I'm tempted to tell her right now that I want to come back but I know that wouldn't be fair to her. I'm still in the fog you talk about and I'm still in contact with the OW, though the affair has ended. For now I'm planning to spend more time with my family (every day) and show my wife that I still care about her. I won't ask to come back until I'm sure I will follow through with it.

I know that most of you here are the BS and saying things like this must make you angry. I hope that my experience might help some of you to understand your WS better... I know you are helping me.

With that in mind, here's a question that goes against what I've seen recommended here and I'd like your perspective. I want to find a way to avoid all contact with OW but if I do that at work, the affair will be obvious to everyone. Any ideas? I only have to deal with this until the end of June and then no contact will be easy.

How in the world would this make things WORSE?

GL, I have read some of your posts...this is a MARRIAGE BUILDING site, with SPECIFIC ideas on how to save a marriage.

It's clear that you know nothing about this...it's not helpful to be posting nonsense advice, ESPECIALLY to newbies when you know NOTHING about the MB program.

This marriage CAN be saved, marriages are saved here everysingleday, but the concepts must be followed and applied.

Try your public library.