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Verve #2236797 03/29/09 05:56 PM
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As far as knowing limits - one is too many. Your wife hasn't figured that out. But when all the problems revolve around alcohol, something has to give.

believer #2236876 03/29/09 09:06 PM
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Zen, I gotta ask. Why does your wife work in a sports bar? Given the issues you have in your marriage and given that you and Coho thinks she is a wiz at coming up with work, why hasn't she quit this job?

OurHouse #2236889 03/29/09 09:32 PM
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Well we had to pull our kids out of day care so we can stay afloat financially at the moment. We're gonna be in quite a pickle soon if one of us doesn't find more work. Finding new work is proving to be pretty hard with our 11% unemployment. The sports bar is not my first choice, believe me, but it's a lot better than the other bar she worked in, where the affair kicked off. This is a wine and beer and pizza place with a pretty low-key crowd.

Coho came home right after her shift tonight with no drink. No prompting from me. That was pretty proactive of her and I'm glad. I asked her tonight if she would give up drinking for us and she said yes.

I think I will follow Lil's advice and see if we can establish a more solid boundary. We just set a limit on the amount we drink. If the drinking problem is more serious, I guess I'll know soon enough. I kinda think a whole lot of what we do needs to be more spelled out right now. We need to just work on the ground rules.

Last night's thing had less to do with the drinking than the issues I think. It was a reminder for me that we have a long way to go.

Believer, it sounds like you've had experience with alcoholism, and I will listen to your advice. Please don't think that I'm disregarding it. I just need to weigh all the pieces and all the advice and do what feels right for me.

ZenWolf #2237041 03/30/09 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ZenWolf
What is it about date night?

She works at this sports bar on weekends you may remember. She was supposed to get off at 6:00 on her shift yesterday. They make pizza at this place so I texted Coho to ask her to bring home a pizza. [color:#33CC00] I was reading your post to my husband and he had a different opinion on this than I did. He thought that you may be setting up your wife. You know that she has a drinking problem and you basically gave her an excuse to stay later because of the pizza. [/color]Just after 6:00 she texted back asking what kind. I responded. Half an hour later she said, 'you got it.' Anyway, she finally got home at 7:40. It's at MOST a 15 minute drive to our house. During the last few months this was consistent. She would have her 'shift drink' before heading home from work. It usually took an hour or two. It was just one more demonstration during this whole thing of where her priorities were and it became a very sore point for me. This is not different than the guy who stops by the bar on the way home from work in my mind. [color:#009900] You asked her for the pizza [/color]
When she got home, I was grumpy and I told her why. She said they got busy and the pizza took longer to make. I asked if she'd had her 'shift drink'. She said she did, while the pizza was being made. I just couldn't shake the feeling I was being lied to. I was still sore that she got home 20 minutes before the kids' bedtime with their dinner.

So maybe she was being honest, but it was all so tied up in recent history, I was in a bad mood to start.

We headed out on the date night to see a friend's band play.
[color:#009900] I am assuming that you took her to a bar for date night? [/color] Got there and Coho goes right into her gregarious social mode. It's nice seeing her have fun and get her mind off things. But there's this voice in my head saying, "All these people know about the affair, doesn't she want to apologize? Take them aside? Something? Is she just going to pretend it didn't happen with them? So my cruddy mood was not improving any. Add to this, in my over-sensitive mood, she's paying attention to everyone but me and I'm thinking, "Date night?" And I'm just losing my desire to be there at all. Somewhere in there Coho had 3 beers and a shot of whiskey. I swear it's the damn hard alcohol with her. My brother showed up, and she and my brother were having this long, very emotional conversation outside. I was thinking, "Wow, she is addressing this with him! That's great." I got to see my brother weep like a baby when I told him my wife was leaving me and he was telling me of the affair (the whistle blower told him, he told me). He's done nothing but sit there and watch me go through hell over and over and he still loves her and wants us to work out. I think he's one that is truly owed an apology.

They came back inside and I asked how Coho was, and she said she was mourning for the whistle blower, who lost her sister in a plane crash a few years ago, this was the anniversary. Apparently my brother lost a friend in a motorcycle accident the night before. Coho's father died while she was in high school. I think this was what the emotional conversation was about. So she's talking about hurting for this friend, but then she says she hates her. She hates her for being the whistle blower. Immediately my hackles went up. So then the fight begins. This person stood up for what she thought was right, and informed me of the affair. Coho thinks she did it to protect herself (?!?!) Coho thinks she has far worse secrets than Coho has, and this person is a hypocrite. To me, this just says that Coho doesn't own up yet. I don’t care if Hitler informed me of the affair… She says all the right things, but does she feel it? Several more things said, angry outbursts from Coho, defensiveness. It's reinforcing this nagging doubt I have about her motivation for being here.

On top of this, when I read her posts, most of the questions that I want to hear answered just get avoided or danced around. The stuff that truly gets to the heart of the matter? Has it been addressed? Has she addressed boundaries or EP even once? It is this classic sense that the BS has that the WS gets to just return to their life, no consequences, no changes, while the BS has endured the most horrific pain and humiliation and still wants the marriage. Maybe the BS is just the easier choice because the affair got too uncomfortable. [color:#009900] I have felt this way too at times. However, I don't really believe that the bs is every the easier choice. I believe that the easy choice is to leave and not face your demons. It takes courage to face the person that you have hurt most. I believe that the WSs that come home want to be there. [/color]

Now in this whole thing, she repeatedly said she's been trying and I'm not seeing it. I am seeing it. She's trying. One of the first things Dr. Harley told her she must do: She must make sure that I BELIEVE that she understands how deep the hurt is or me. To be blunt? I don't think she does. She just says it's because she doesn't express feelings like me. Well, if they aren't expressed, then I have no idea they're there, do I?

I'd like to be able to chalk this up to the fact that we're only two weeks into recovery #6. I'd like to think that she will continue to want this and continue to seek help and really internalize the very good advice she's getting. That's what I hope. I told I just want to know that I'm not wasting my time, that this won't happen again next time she's unhappy. To this she says I'm being irrational! Again, is this the alcohol? [color:#009900] YES!!! [/color]
I would think this is the NUMBER ONE QUESTION in the BS mind. When she gets a little drunk, do I get to see what's really going on in her head?

I'm just not getting the answers I need, and I'm tired and I love her so much and I don't want to scare her off, but I'm tired of not saying what I feel out of fear. If she's scared off by this, then she doesn't want it badly enough. Question number one answered.

I hope some of you will repeat some of your more pointed questions, and I hope she'll start listening.

She’s going to read this post and it’s just going to make her more defensive and scared. I wish she’d read the post and just see what I need from it and act on it.

I feel the exact frustration and doubts that you feel. It seems to come up more when we are doing well. Like my brain has a chance to relax and feel all of the junk that is going on. I also have a hard time seeing my husband happy and friendly in social situations sometimes too. It is like I resent him for not being more hurt by all of this. I think this is normal. You are only two weeks from the last painful act of infidelity. But, so is she. Everybody deals with things in their own way. Give yourself a break. Give he a break too. This sucks for both of you! Remember the love banks. Your wife was trying to think of recreational activities to do with you and none of her ideas included alcohol. Why not try the dance lessons or cooking classes that she was thinking about? The bars are trouble for you guys. You already know that. When she finds a day job, can she quit the sports bar so you can be together on the weekends? I think you and the kids would benefit.


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Stillstanding2,

I certainly didn't intent to set her up. In the past she told me that the pizza took about 10 minutes to make. There was definitely an element of the bad vibes coming from me that night though. Coho tried to steer it away several times but I just couldn't drag myself out of the mood.

Maybe I just need to establish some more clear boundaries for her and for me. Have some exercises I can go through when I'm feeling bleak so I don't drag her down too. Yes, I need to steer us clear of alcohol as much as she needs to have her own limits.

Yes, when she finds a regular job, she will stop working on weekends. Besides it being a bar, we need family time and couple time to be number one priority. Unfortunately, we're in survival mode for the time being. But, she's home all week, which, tight as it is, has been good (except that the kids are driving us both nuts at times as we try to work).

She is trying. She was incredibly sweet last night.

Thanks for the advice!

ZenWolf #2237382 03/30/09 03:11 PM
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I hear you about the finances. That is a lot of added stress. This is hard enough without having to worry about money too. I don't think that you intended to set your wife up. But, if they got busy like she explained, she wasn't going to be able to win that one. She is in the habit of having a beer after work or while she waits. Habits are hard to break. Especially when they feel harmless.

Last edited by stillstanding2; 03/30/09 03:12 PM.

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Yeah, I'm gonna stop reading her posts. It's like a say it clear as day, I write it clear as day, others write it clear as day, doesn't sink in. Denial denial denial.

So frustrated.

ZenWolf #2237461 03/30/09 05:33 PM
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Alright, Coho made me feel better. Still I think I'm gonna stay away from her thread for awhile.

ZenWolf #2237468 03/30/09 05:59 PM
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OK, not feeling better. God I need a break. So so tired of this.

ZenWolf #2237479 03/30/09 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ZenWolf
I WANT TO KNOW WHY THIS WILL BE DIFFERENT. Top question. Question number ONE.
And as Mark1952 and Dr. H helped me understand, WHAT will she do to make it be different too. There are two parts to having an A -- the why and the what. Why did she have an A and what did she do that allowed the A to start/develop? The why addresses one's internal and emotional state such as boundaries, feelings, emotional make-up that allows them to justify it. The what addresses the circumtances, environment, and actions the person put her/himself into which allows it to happen such as drinking, being alone with a man, talking about relationship matters with a man who is not your H.

I hope cohosalmon can uncover both the why and the what in order to help you both heal.


Me (FWW): 45
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Looking4 #2237525 03/30/09 08:27 PM
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Please keep up with the positive reiinforcement for Coho!!! Not many waywards come onto a site like this especially after their BH was on first...knowing they will take alot of 2X4's!!!

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OK, you're right. I'm being impatient and probably unrealistic. Thank you for the reminder. She's doing great. Despite this mood of mine, she's treating me very very well.

I'm sorry Coho.

She told me she feels like she can't do anything right in my eyes. I think she's doing just about everything right, especially when compared to the FR. I am hyper-sensitive right now and I need to remember to keep this a welcoming place for her. I am truly happy that she's trying and that she has the desire to keep doing this. So do I. She scheduled her next Dr. Harley talk for Thursday. Keep the support coming for both of please.

Thank you everyone!

ZenWolf #2237652 03/31/09 07:41 AM
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Zen,
You are completely entitled to have bad moods. Of course you feel insecure, angry, doubtful, and lots more. You want everything to get better right now. I am impatient too. I hate that I am in this situation. I thought that I was married to the best man in the world. I thought that we were different and special. The affair wiped that out for me. I think that I can get it back but it is so hard. There are certain magic words and actions that the WS could do that would make things better. We don't want to tell them what these words and actions are. We want them to know and do it on their own. Is that really fair? They don't have our thoughts in their heads. They have their own words. We don't like their words. So, we get mad at them. I do think that Coho is trying and feels like she can't do anything right because she is doing what SHE thinks is right and maybe not exactly what YOU think is right. I recomended the LoveBuster book to Coho. It has some really good ideas on anger management. I am reading it right now and trying to eliminate the lovebusters. You both know that alcohol is you biggest lovebuster. I know that drinking seems cool, fun, and relaxing but is it for the two of you? With nerves as raw as both of yours, do you really need to add alcohol to the mix?


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We agreed to a specific limit on drinking while working on recovery. Yes, alcohol is a problem for us, I agree, but I would like to see if we can behave as responsible adults and just stick to our guidelines before we put a halt to it altogether. Like I said, I think I'll know soon enough if there's a deeper drinking problem, or if this has just been a case of adding fuel to the fire. I think the latter. I hope the latter.

I finished my giant project today with work. Yay! I'm ready for a trip to Mexico with Coho. She was an enormous help with her technical and design expertise.

Her thread has been going down another cruddy discussion of her last marriage which is unfortunate. I understand the controversial nature of the issue, and I think it does little good to try to defend ourselves here, so I'll just leave it up to the individual posters to make up their mind as to helping us or not. Thanks to those who do. Sorry to anyone who is hurt by this. It's kind of weird being hounded by a WS, I have to admit. I would think it'd be a more humbling experience, teaching that people can make mistakes and be forgiven.

Spring is gaining more and more momentum here and drawing my attention to the garden. This is my year to prove that I won't be such a control freak in the garden. Coho, have some fun!

ZenWolf #2238075 03/31/09 03:49 PM
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It is odd that the judgement is coming from a WS. It was beautiful here today. Spent some time in the garden planting flowers. It was nice to do a normal thing in the sunshine. I don't even think that I thought about the affair the whole time I was in the yard. I just realized that. Kind of nice to just do normal things and actually enjoy them. Mexico sounds wonderful. Are you taking the kids or going without them?


Over it.
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Originally Posted by ZenWolf
We agreed to a specific limit on drinking while working on recovery. Yes, alcohol is a problem for us, I agree, but I would like to see if we can behave as responsible adults and just stick to our guidelines before we put a halt to it altogether. Like I said, I think I'll know soon enough if there's a deeper drinking problem, or if this has just been a case of adding fuel to the fire. I think the latter. I hope the latter.

I finished my giant project today with work. Yay! I'm ready for a trip to Mexico with Coho. She was an enormous help with her technical and design expertise.

Her thread has been going down another cruddy discussion of her last marriage which is unfortunate. I understand the controversial nature of the issue, and I think it does little good to try to defend ourselves here, so I'll just leave it up to the individual posters to make up their mind as to helping us or not. Thanks to those who do. Sorry to anyone who is hurt by this. It's kind of weird being hounded by a WS, I have to admit. I would think it'd be a more humbling experience, teaching that people can make mistakes and be forgiven.

Spring is gaining more and more momentum here and drawing my attention to the garden. This is my year to prove that I won't be such a control freak in the garden. Coho, have some fun!

ha! giant pink flowers and sunflowers for the kids and more veggies than we can keep up with!


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cohosalmon
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Oh Mexico is going to happen, but it's not a set plan. It's just a 'when we get some money and stability' plan. Now we just need to work on finding enough income to pay the mortgage and bills.

I would dearly like to take some time away with Coho. I hope sooner than later.

ZenWolf #2238121 03/31/09 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ZenWolf
Oh Mexico is going to happen, but it's not a set plan. It's just a 'when we get some money and stability' plan. Now we just need to work on finding enough income to pay the mortgage and bills.

I would dearly like to take some time away with Coho. I hope sooner than later.

Oaxaca!


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Quote
It's kind of weird being hounded by a WS, I have to admit. I would think it'd be a more humbling experience, teaching that people can make mistakes and be forgiven.

For the record, Mrs. W is a FORMER Wayward Wife who ended her 3 month affair nearly 4 years ago. When did Coho & you end yours????

BTW...one of the distinguishing signs of how to differentiate a FORMER WS and WS is the ability to delineate between right and wrong. To me, it is far less surprising to see FWS's on your thread(s) than it is shocking to see BS's publicly helping you on either.

In addition, IMHO, the "humbling" experience includes wisdom as gift through repentence.

Mr. W

p.s. - This is just my/our opinions.


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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- In addition, IMHO, the "humbling" experience includes wisdom as gift through repentance. -

I agree with this, and I hope my wife and I can achieve this. We are working toward that, and yes, very early in our recovery. It's just incredibly hurtful to have someone denounce your marriage and your attempts to save it when that's all you want for your family. You have some valid points in your very black and white view of our life, and we have tried to be sensitive to it. Please just understand that nothing will stop me from seeking the best help for my marriage and my family. Sorry if that's selfish to you, we have stated the facts plainly so that others can make up their minds about our 'affairiage'. Some will see it as such, others may not. I do not, except by the strictest letter of the law, so I will allow that there is gray area. I'm sorry, that's just how the world works. That fact that you wanted to stay in your marriage after your wife cheated on you displays some acceptance of 'grayness' in the world and the ability to seek and attain forgiveness. Please don't begrudge us that effort.

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