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Joined: Mar 2009
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Originally Posted by averageguy
Whether she enjoys sex or not does not really matter.
Maybe it depends on the person or exactly what you would mean by "not enjoying" sex. For me, I agree with romagnum:
Originally Posted by romagnum
Sex feels empty when you know the other partner is not really enjoying himself/herself.
If my wife is hurting herself or suffering while trying to meet my need for SF (or RC or other need), then it becomes less fulfilling. One thought in my mind when I started this whole thread was I never want to cause my wife any pain, just to get my need met.

However,
Originally Posted by averageguy
To me withholding something from a spouse that you know is the spouse’s top EN is wrong. Simply wrong.
If my wife absolutely refused to even try to meet my needs, that's going to have a detrimental effect on the relationship. So I would agree that it is wrong to withhold things that can fill your spouse's needs.

One concept that I've found interesting (almost fascinating) is maybe best illustrated by Dr. Harley's approach to teaching an unaffectionate man how to fulfill his wife's need for affection. If he come in with no more than a desire to meet his wife's need, then he is told what to do to fill his wife's need. At first, when the husband is "filling the assignments" it feels awkward, forced, contrived, and other things that don't quite feel "affectionate." If any of the assignments are simply too unpleasant, then a substitute assignment is given. With patience and practice, he learns how to be genuine, honest, and even spontaneous in showing his wife affection.

Back to the subject at hand, in Dr. Harley's response to a letter in the Q&A columns, he tells a wife (and I'm paraphrasing), "Why should you like sex? Sex is like peanut butter: some like it some don't." He goes on to tell her that she can still learn how to be a good lover, and fulfill her husband's need for SF.

Quote
Joint enthusiastic agreement... not a compromise where neither person is satisfied with "compromise"
A couple of weeks ago, the kids were watching "Shark Tale." I'm reminded of the scene where Oscar and Sykes are arguing Sykes's "cut" of Oscars earnings. They eventually "settle" on an equitable 50:50, and Sykes asks Oscar, "Are you happy?" and Oscar replies, "No, are you happy?" "No" and they shake hands settling the deal. Seemed a reasonable example of the difference between "compromise" and "Joint Enthusiastic Agreement"

Joined: Nov 2005
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Originally Posted by WolfDeca
Originally Posted by AverageGuy
Whether she enjoys sex or not does not really matter.

Because meeting your spouse's ENs works better if it's at least pleasant. Unpleasantness erodes POJA like nobody's business.

Sure, if SF is the bottom need for your wife, she may not want to 'get much out of it' - you don't have to feel obliged to make sure she has multiple earth-shattering orgasms every time.

On the other hand, if you're just grinding away on her, sweaty, unshaven, unshowered, not having brushed your teeth this week, without regard for that knee she sprained walking the dog and the fact that she hates someone squeezing her nipples, saying 'oh, it's not really meant to do anything for you' is extremely callous. (This, dear folks, is NOT a true story from my life, but it is a conglomeration of true factoids.)

And that's assuming SF is not important to her. Many people here on this board have SF maybe not as a top need, but in the top 5, and for them, meeting just the spouse's needs leads to unfulfilled needs for themselves. And to just guess the H has it as #1 and the wife as #9 is pretty naive.

And yeah, I think the same goes with all ENs - you have to make sure that the person meeting your needs has a somewhat easy time of it.

No snide comments about your mother when you're just talking to me because I have a need for conversation.

No throwing fast balls at your head when you're just coming to dodgeball training because of my RC needs.

No leaving cat's vomit lying around because you'll be sweeping the floor tomorrow trying to meet my DS needs.

No quitting my day job when you're only sticking around in your awful job to meet my FS needs.

Me not putting on a migraine-inducing perfume if you try to cuddle with me to meet my Affection needs.

No undercutting you in front of the kids when you try to step up and meet the FC need I have.

No saying 'what do you know about it?!' when you're just giving me a compliment to meet my Admiration needs.

No tearing into you when your attempts to meet my H&O needs bring up some things I don't like.

And no saying 'oh, I'd forgotten what your chin looked like' when you finally shave on behalf of my PA needs.

Yes, fulfilling your spouse's ENs is a lot of work, but it shouldn't be made extra complicated by having to fight through layers of distaste to do it. And it should be a team effort, not an exam where you throw the most difficult situations at people and see whether they fail or not.

POJA, AverageGuy.

There is actually nothing in your retort to my posting that I disagree with. I agree with you whole-heartedly.

Now that I read my post about how “it does not matter if wife enjoys sex or not” a day later, I do sound very callous. My bad. I went in the totally wrong direction, and mixed up the terminology. Let me rewrite my message that I am trying to communicate.

Let’s consider a couple where the husband’s top EN is SF, and SF is a low on her list of EN. It is necessary thus that sex take place for his fulfillment.

Now, in order to serve in her role as a sexual partner, it is desirable that she enjoys it. Why? Because if she is able to enjoy sex, then she will be a better partner, and will be able to fulfill the husbands needs much easily. Not only for his sake, but also for her sake. It is appropriate to make it as easiest on the giving partner to give to the receiving partner. Which means that both of them should do whatever it takes to have her enjoy it. Which means that he needs to shower, shave, be respectable to her the whole day long, load the dishwasher, or do whatever needs to be done to get her into the mood.

So yes, I retract yesterday’s statement that her enjoyment of sex is irrelevant. What I think that I am trying to communicate is that meeting her SF is irrelevant, but having her enjoy sex is important. Is this a better statement? Or am I digging myself into a deeper hole?


Me: 50. W: 50. Happily married since 1993. 3 kids.
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Originally Posted by AverageGuy
What I think that I am trying to communicate is that meeting her SF is irrelevant, but having her enjoy sex is important. Is this a better statement? Or am I digging myself into a deeper hole?


Yeah, if the case is such that she has no SF need, trying to meet it would be irrelevant, and I agree with you completely.

Of course, things get hairier if it's his #2 need and her #4 or some such thing, especially if they have different prerequisites for getting in the mood. But complicating examples is, of course, always easy, and I agree with you on principle. :p


Last edited by WolfDeca; 04/03/09 02:16 AM. Reason: adding a comma
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