Hi BB,

Just wanted to wish you well in all the work you have been putting into renewing your marriage.

Your wife is a lovely warm caring person, she is doing her best to help me in my situation and i really appreciate her input, this lady knows what she is talking about

Keep up the great work, you are doing well and remember she is noticing and appreciating anything you do no matter how small.

Take Care,

Gabrielle

THIS WAS POSTED BY BILLYBASSETT AND NOT SERENDIPITIOUS - LOG IN DETAILS WERE NOT AMENDED

Had a bad day yesterday - the A reared it's ugly head again - I hate the A, the fact that I did it and the way it can push us back in our R.

My DW is quite rightly still so angry. At times, unannounced, the profound upset and disappointment come right back to the fore. I hate what I have done to her and I hate the fact that she still harbours such negative emotions, emotions that I put there for her.

I am reading SAA as part of our R. My DW read it a long time ago (as I should have). I am being to understand the principles of Dr. Harley and incorporate them in my life and responses to my DW. She has been doing it for a while but I know she finds it hard to keep to it 100% of the time, last night for one!

I love her so much. I just wish she knew how much. Naturally by having had an A she doubts my sincerity and intergrity, especially following my non-disclosure issues a few months ago which put us back further.

My DW doesn't quite believe my reasons for the A. I can say with certainty that the A was not about the OW or as a plan to end or get out of the M but my selfish need and desire to escape from a whole range of problems that I had dealt with so badly. I buried my problems deep, always have done, and never faced up to the tough and challenging times that we all encounter in our lives.

Rather than rely on my DW to talk things through (even when she approached me specifically about this) I shunned her - part of my conflict avoidance failings. By shunning her, I shunned my M and my family.

In my heart I know that my A was all to do with escaping from the terrible issues that I never had the emotional maturity to face up to. Quite honestly, if everyone dealt with issues the way I did then the world would be a really awful place.

This time last year I hated myself, who I was - everything about me. I didn't speak up I just buried these feelings. I had a DW that I loved, a great family, no real health problems and financial security. Everything I ever wanted but I still felt as low as I could imagine.

The whole situation fed itself and made the situation worse. The lower I felt the more I would bury and so the lower I would become. And so on and so forth - it was a road to absolute ruin. In fact, both my DW and I agreed that without the A I was on course to be an alcoholic as my drinking was getting way out of hand (2 bottles of wine a night!!)

My A was a selfish and disgusting "time out" from facing up to the way I felt. My actions were totally opposite from anything anyone would have said was possible from me. I'm not sure about this but by acting outside of the "normal/perceived" me I found it easier to have the A. Certainly, in conflict avoidance terms, I was creating the biggest conflict I had ever been involved in especially as the OWH had suspicions and had warned me off. Yet, the A still went ahead - this is just so "the other end of the spectrum" for me and people that know me.

I love her so much but I fear for our future. I fear for our M and I fear for our family.

Anyway, I'll have to end this post early as my DW and I are just about to talk about things. I'll post later is needbe.

THE ABOVE POST WAS FROM BILLYBASSETT AND NOT SERENDIPITIOUS. WE USE THE SAME LAPTOP AND I FORGOT TO LOG HER OUT

BB, with all due respect, I read stuff like this and go "HUH?" You had an affair because you couldn't face up to your terrible issues? I am sorry, but that does not make sense. That sounds like something we would read in Cosmo magazine; psychobabble disguised as wisdom.

You had an affair because you had shabby boundaries and because you were emotionally detached in the marriage.

Have y'all considered doing a Marriage Builders weekend or home study course? They have a new home course that uses videos, home lessons all guided by a COACH. You get daily access to Dr Harley on the weekend forum.

Rough days comes, rough days go. It doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong. It doesn't mean she's doing anything wrong. It's just part of the process.

BB, the first time I read Dr. H's description of independent behavior (IB), a lot of things finally began to make sense. Up until that point, I had always bought into the psychobabble of family of origin issues, childhood difficulties, etc. being the cause of all my problems.

An affair is an extreme form of IB. Dr. H's definition of IB is "behavior conceived and executed without consideration of your spouses feelings".

I would suspect, based on what you've said, that your life has been filled with decisions that were based on what you wanted without taking into consideration how your wife would feel about it. Even though your decisions may have been successful, your motives were all about you and your own interests.

I would also suspect that you kept secrets and chose to have a separate life in business that you shared little about with your wife. This is called a secret separate life and is another example of IB. You may have done this under the guise of protecting your family ("not bringing work home"), but it still served your own personal interests and prevented intimacy in your marriage.

To maintain most IBs, dishonesty in some or many forms is required....half-truths, omissions, deflecting, or all out lying. I believe your wife's top EN is openness and honesty. I hope you can see how quickly her love bank can become depleted if you do not recognize and correct your IBs.

We create many habits that can easily be changed. IB is one of them. It isn't until something drastic occurs in our lives, as in this case an affair, before we realize that our habit of having walls and separations from our loved ones is actually destroying us.

It doesn't matter how you got those walls, or why you got those walls, or how many past experiences contributed to your "need" for those walls (FOO), all that matters is that you identify that you HAVE those walls and that they must come down to create intimacy in your marriage.

This is why you will hear me harp over and over that it doesn't matter what all of your past issues are. It just matters that you bring the walls down and start living an open and honest life.

Hi tst, thanks for your message.

Without doubt I was exhibiting and involved in a lot of IB behaviour this time 12 months ago. Both my DW and I have looked back in some depth at my actions and, in retrospect, the majority of my life was IB.

I was becoming detached from my DW, my family and work colleagues. Basically, everyone I came into contact at that time has since commented on "how different I had become".

Not that I was doing stuff that I was trying to "hide" out of shame but, for example, you refer to work and work-related stress which of course is linked to financial security and that was one of the major IB's I was doing.

I thought I was being "a good strong husband" not letting my DW getting bogged down in the negative aspects of this part of our life. I took it all on myself and basically didn't deal or cope with it but just added to the internal turmoil and depression I already felt.

As I have posted previously, as a serial conflict avoider I tried to shield my DW from difficult situations in our lives, especially as she had been through so much medically and physically over the previous 3-4 years. It was easy not to share these details with her.

Basically I only communicated good news (which was in short supply this time last year) and missed out the rest. Part of it was selfishness as I just didn't want to face up problematic or negative issues, I was full of them, sick of them and felt that I didn't have the capacity to take on anymore.

Why, at that point I couldn't just open up to my DW I just don't know. I suppose it's down to the fact that she is a strong woman and I wanted to prove that I could be a "strong man" by taking on all the family stresses and strains.

Little did I realise that by not sharing and relying on my DW's great judgement in difficult situations I was slowly building up resentment towards her and piling it on top of all the serious issues that has affected our lives at that time.

I had a very serious misconception that my actions were "honourable" when in fact it was tearing down the very fabric and fibre of our M.

There are other examples of IB, some less significant some quite disturbing (arranging to go the football on our wedding anniversary - how bad and disrespectful to our M is that??).

My actions made our lives together a bit of a sham. I did not communicate hosnestly with her. I did not tell her how I felt, I did not share my inner-most feelings. At the same time, due to my non-communication/perceived withdrawal my DW just thought that I didn't care about anything and couldn't be bothered with her.

The positive point is this - that was then. 12 months ago. My DW & I sat down this morning and discussed whether I continued to show IB in any way. She agreed that I didn't but she did feel quite upset at the amount of IB I was involved in last year and the fact that she did nothing about it.

We have a joint agreement that if I start to exhibt any IB traits again my DW will tell me straight way. Also, as I understand how they contributed to my downfall I will also be vigilant and constantly review and re-review my behaviour to make sure IB doesn't return. IB will be put to the sword!!

I believe I have changed considerably from 12 months ago. I try to empathise not only with my DW but everyone I come into contact with to make sure my actions don't impact on them in a negative way. If it is unavoidable I try not to "avoid" but I do still find confrontation quite difficult. That said, the more I confront the easier and more adept you become.

And so the rollercoaster goes on.......

A confused BS doesn't know what he/she wants. In my view, this is a complete cop-out on your part and I'm sure you gladly embraced her statement as pretext not to take a poly.

"Gee Honey, I really want to take a poly but if you absolutely insist I don't do it - I won't".

[aside: PHEWWWW!!! THAT was close!!!]

If my FWW had offered to take a poly and I told her it wouldn't do any good and yet she still did it anyway? I would have been very happy about that.

Don't wait for her to tell you what to do. If you want this M, you have to take charge.

Whilst I understand your point how can any BS put much credence into a poly solely arranged by a WS?

If a WS arranges the poly that have prior knowledge of the questions and can avoid certain areas they know may be relatively "sticky".

If a poly is to do the job it is itended to do, the WS should not have any input to the areas it is designed to challenge.

If a WS arranges a poly without the BS it could untimately result in causing bigger issues ( why did you include this / why did you exclude that etc etc).

That is why, IMO, a WS needs to be a relative passenger in the process but must step up when it comes to actually taking it.

That is why, IMO, you will end up divorced.

You should change your thread title to "Desperate WS afraid of losing marriage". It would be more appropriate.

"Save" is an action verb. It requires action on your part. A lifeguard doesn't stand on the beach hoping the tide will bring the drowning swimmer toward him/her.

You, like many if not most WS's, just want BS to "get over it". You hope the marriage survives long enough for that to happen. If, by chance, your marriage does survive, the pent up resentment your BS will have for you will never go away.

Thanks for your reply but I feel that you miss the point I am trying to make.

If I was refusing to take a poly and asking my DW to take me at my word then, yes, I would totally agree with you.

That is not the case at all but I want any poly to answer the Q's that my DW wants and not what I think she wants.

By the very fact a poly is required means that my DW cannot trust my words due to my A. So, if I then do a pre-emptive poly how can she be 100% happy with the questions I alone choose without any input from her?

Naturally, she would become suspicious of other aspects of the A that may not have been included.

All I am trying to say is that, IMO, it is very important part of the process that my DW decides what is or isn't included as part of the poly. That way her greatest concerns/questions are addressed.

You sound like you have been personally affected by this issue. Your post is quite direct and sure of the final outcome. Do you still think my stance is a negative one?

I know I shouldn't really be posting on my FWH's thread, but I feel the need to clear up the polygraph issue.

BB has clearly stated to me that he will take a polygraph. There aren't too many good operators here in the UK, even fewer in our locality, but he has found details of some that he could attend, and he has asked me to be part of the process, ie choose some questions that I want answering etc. The examiner would need us both to attend to discuss the A.

Herein lies the problem, the OW is NOT a threat to our M. She is irrelevant. I know all the details of the A. The whens, where's, what they did, the end of the A. I know them not just from my H but from verificaton with the OW and the OWH. I don't need any other details. The A ended over 8 months ago, lasted only a few weeks and there is absolutely NO chance of it being rekindled. I KNOW THIS.

The truth that I need concerns the HOW's.

How could he do this? How could he think so little of me, our children, our life, our future? How did he justify his actions to himself? How did he manage to demonise me? How did he let his boundaries fail so miserably? How could he be so dishonest with himself and with me?

HOW did this happen? A poly will not answer these questions and this is the reason that I want no part in one. It is me that WILL NOT be a part of the poly, not BB.

I hope this clears up the confusion, and I apologise for butting in on my FWH's thread.

I could do with some real good advice, especially from any BS's.

My DW is having a real tough time at the moment with just about everything to do with my A, our M, and what I have done to our lives.

I will NOT let the evil, dispicable thing that I did destroy our M - I just won't.

She needs my love and support so much at the moment. Can anybody profer any advice or help on the best ways to "prop" up a BS in these situations?

Here is a link to a thread on the recovery forum that I believe will help you.


LINK

BB, It's been nearly 4 weeks since you began reading SAA.
You were going to read HNHN after that.

How's that going?

Hi tst, thanks for your post.

SAA finished, HNHN on order through Amazon but there has been a delay so no progress on that front.

Thoughts, phew - not sure where to begin. My over-riding impression was the relative simplicity of the advice given and the fact that "it's not rocket science" but still so thought provoking in terms of what it said to me and how much I took my M and DW for granted in the past.

It hit me straight between the eyes how I had just let my M just "happen" without anywhere near enough care or nuture.

Four rules, four simple rules. It was like having a great big empathy bath!! Protect with joint agreement, take care of EN's, give quality time to your spouse and be bloody honest all the time. Simple.

Why it took SAA to make these obvious things apparent raised deep questions of myself. In some ways it made me feel quite angry that I didn't do all of those things naturally anyway.

Whilst I'm waiting for HNHN I'm going to re-read the most relevant parts to our M and make sure that I truly get the concept of each section. Just because I've read it doesn't mean that its done, finished and absorbed. It offers such a significant plan for our R that I want to utilise it best as I possibly can.

Hi people, (especially tst) an update to my post to give you an idea to where I/we are up to and what I've been doing over the past month or so.

SAA read and half way through HNHN. I've given some thoughts about my impressions of SAA previously but I must say that I am enjoying HNHN more.

TBH, I think that being a FWS, you spend so much time in the early months after D-Day of continually going over the events that caused so much pain in the M and to your family and living with the consequences of your bad choices and sloppy boundaries that a book that only really focuses on repairing your M and relationship is welcome.

Let me be clear. I will never ever let the lessons in life that I am learning/have learnt from the A leave me. I will never forget the ramfications for my M or my family nor the support and love shown by my fantastic DW and family in times when I had abandoned them.

I owe it to all of them and myself to take this unsavoury episode of my life, understand it fully and the person that am I am/was to ensure that I never go within a million miles of the behaviour that led me to the A.

HNHN focuses firmly on now and the future and how to build a fantastic M. This is something, naturally, I am keen to focus upon to give back to those who mean so much to me and those that I hurt so bad.

Unfortunately I still do [censored] up at times!! Not purposely, but still get it wrong! For those of you that know of my DW (Serendipitous) she is pretty good at this MB stuff, has excellent insight and empathy, and always seems to make the right judgement calls. Unfortunately for me this is a little more difficult.

The main problem area at the moment is policy of joint agreement (POJA) and taking the lead in our R. Now, I think tst make an excellent post earlier on this thread about IB (independent behaviour). In retrospect, I exhibited a whole host of IB before and during my A. I am acutely aware of this and something that I have removed from my life.

To a degree taking the lead has to be an IB of some sort. You spontaneously take action, say or do something which protects your spouse or shows that you are putting them first in some way.

My problem is confusing the boundaries of IB and POJA. There have been times when by DW needed me to take the lead but I have used POJA and it has been construed as being weak or not understanding how to protect or look after her. In my mind I don't want to exhibit much (if any) IB as it could trigger her to my previous behaviour but by delaying or asking "what do you think we should do" just hasn't worked as I intended it to.

As well as the blurring of POJA & IB, I know that I need to display more empathy to my DW when responding to issues that are based around the A and the ramifications to our lives as a result. This is a bit of an LB for her as my actions prior to and during the A were in total disregard of her and the family.

My DW is sick of hearing "I really didn't mean to upset you" but the truth is that I never ever set out to say anything that would intentionally hurt or upset her. But, on occasions, I do and I feel that my "empathy bucket" isn't as full as it should be. I see things that I say in one way, my way without really considering how they could be taken by my DW and the back-drop to our current lives.

So, been on Amazon and bought a book - the name escapes me at the moment - that is all about empathy so it will enable me to self-help towards this LB and get rid!

Anyway, will report back soon with a further update. Any constructive advice or opinions would be gratefully received from anyone.

What you describe above is the OPPOSITE of IB.

In the Love Busters book, IB is defined as Activities of a spouse that are conceived and executed as if the other spouse does not exist.

What you said above is that you take action to protect or demonstrate that she comes first.

See the difference?

Using this particular phrase often sends the message that you think the other person should not be upset with you.

Instead try acknowledging that what you did was hurtful, regardless of whether you INTENDED to be hurtful.

"I'm sorry that my actions hurt you."





Empathy is really pretty simple. I can't imagine that an entire book was written on it

Just ask yourself before you do or say anything knowing what I do about my wife, how would this action or these words affect her or make her feel. Will she feel loved and cared for?

I think most people really can answer that question correctly about their spouse.

Those who "lack empathy" have developed the habit of NOT ASKING themselves that question because it would interfere with what they want to say or do.

That goes straight back to IB. I won't ask myself this question because my spouse's feelings might interfere with what I want.

Even your simple quote above, I really didn't mean to upset you is about you and how YOU feel. You feel uncomfortable or guilty because she feels hurt and YOU want to stop feeling badly. So you are motivated to can get her to think she shouldn't be upset just because your intent wasn't to harm.

But the response that demonstrates empathy is that you are sorry that you are the cause of her hurt.

Nice update.

Wanted to comment on this new book, self help and finding empathy.

I really, really, really recommend that you stay on the MB path. It is a narrow path that can save a marriage, but only if you learn and work the program as it's intended. Going off on a tangent can jeopardize the work that you and your wife are just beginning to accomplish in this marriage. You are not even through HNHN and you are planning a distraction into another area.

I recommend after HNHN that you work through all of the questions at the end of the chapters together with your wife. THEN begin reading the book "Love Busters".

When you follow the MB program in it's entirety, you will naturally begin to develop empathy. It's not some magical thing your missing..... it's new habits over a period of time that creates deeper empathy. I think you are expecting perfection of a skill that is in it's infancy, and that is not reasonable! You wouldn't expect to walk onto a tennis court for the first time and play without mistakes would you? Keep practicing POJA while being open and honest with your wife and the new habits WILL develop, and deeper empathy will follow.

This all takes time and effort. And the MB program will work if you will stay on the narrow path.