Cat, you didn't say that he asked for a backrub Saturday, so I'd assumed you volunteered it. SO when he asks for the backrub, the morning SF, how about telling him then, that you want to be with him, so you're not going to "go first" for the time being. That you would love a foot rub, or a back rub. And then if he says no, you could ask what would make him enthusiastic about it, look for the POJA at that time.

I know you're tired, hon. So how about before he gets into this at 6am for the time being, that you bring it up at a calm time? "I'm not into 6am SF right now, and if you do that foot tapping thing when I'm trying to sleep, I need you to find somewhere else to do it, or you're not sleeping with me for the time being. If you want to renegotiate, that's cool, but not at 6am."

What do you think? What if I said that it's disrespectful to assume that he wants to gain at your expense, and if he knew that you feel this way about the 6am SF, then he may stop asking?

Cat, I don't think this is your situation, but if he's going to insist on SF that you're clear that you're not enthusiastic about, Cat, then I think you would do your marriage well to kick him out of your room or your house for the time being until he gets it that you're not his object to be used at his convenience. And if he doesn't get it, then he doesn't need to share a room with you. Because that's just so way beyond unnacceptable.

The way he works it is, if he wants to be rubbed, he takes my hand and puts it on him, as we're laying in bed; that's what happened yesterday morning. Even guides what he would like done (back, chest, etc.). If I do it for awhile and stop, and he really has SF as the final agenda, he'll start the process all over again. I've just never said no when he does this. Kinda scares me to think about it cos I assume he'll do the foot tapping.

I'll have to think on this.

If he does the foot tapping in another room, where you can't hear it, or in a hotel, would that still scare you to think about it?

Do you remember the gaslighting book? How there will be a frightening anger episode early in the relationship, that terrifies us for years? Is that the case here, Cat? cat, you know I carried this fear, many years later, but it's just not true anymore. My DH wouldn't smash the window in the present the way he did way back then; he's had a lot of consistency choosing other options since then. He's more aware of his boundaries; it doesn't rely on how he feels about me.

How about your situation? Was there a scary time, and do you think your H has that in him today, if you look at how he handles things today compared to the way he did then?

Or maybe it is about yourself, the things you did long ago, like coming too close to suicide? If this is the fear, you're not the same person you were then, right? You've been building a lot of momentum making new choices. You know how critical you are to your daughter, and are on ADs to help with the depression that lead there before, right?

He used to yell a lot. Didn't stop until D18 was 13 or so, when I told him she was afraid of him. I suppose it's more not wanting him to think badly of me; I have that need to be admired, wanted, etc. That, and I don't feel like I can win in an argument, so I figure I'll end up caving or apologizing for starting it, generally feeling bad about myself. I think I go along and don't bring such things up simply because I want to keep things smooth. I guess this would be my next step, huh?

Sounds great, Cat!

CWMI posted a really really great quote about resentment on her new thread. It's from Al Turtle's site. Did you see it?

I second what ears says about letting him "go first". Next time he asks for something, do that. *Especially* if you aren't *enthusiastic* about it. (I know I posted somewhere else about getting hung up on the word "enthusiastic"... but it wasn't meant for someone who has a problem with saying no.)

Hmmm, I was just thinking about me and my H, and about your question if that's just what all women do. You know, I ask my H to do lots of things. And he often does them. Since coming here I've tried to be more sensitive to whether he's doing it reluctantly, and if so, I withdraw my request. And I reassure him that it's ok to say no. He seems able to say no if he wants to.

OTOH he doesn't ask for much. He doesn't ask for me to do very many things for him, and he doesn't ask for gifts, favors, etc. So I started wondering if maybe he's like you.

I go through my day assuming that if he wants or needs something from me that he will simply ask. And that I will be free to say no.

I usually don't say no. Sometimes it's something I don't want to do, really, but in the big picture I admit it makes more sense for me to do it than for him to do it - like, taking off work to take care of a sick kid - and so while I personally don't want to do it, I do it because I would rather have the effects of my doing it than if I didn't do it (it's easier for me to take off work than for him to; the effect on his job would be worse, and that affects me too).

But, I go through my day assuming I don't have to try to second-guess him, or walk on eggshells... in other words I assume he will be H&O if he needs something.

I wonder if your H is doing that. And if he assumes that when you ask for something, that he is free to say no unless you let him know this is VERY important and it isn't just a passing request.

(Everyone is *always* free to say no of course, but sometimes a person might be less inclined to say no than at other times. Like agreeing to be the one to stay home from work even if you really needed to go to work... if the other person needed to go to work more. Similarly, if you let him know this was a big deal to you, he might be less inclined to say no. Knowing your H, maybe not... but to not give him the chance is a DJ.)

For my H, trying to buy him something is futile. If he wants something he simply buys it himself. If someone gets him a gift, like for Christmas or his birthday, if it isn't something he asked for then it will likely sit on a shelf in a closet forever. If it's an article of clothing, if he didn't pick it out or if it isn't exactly like others he's chosen (same brand, same stitching, similar coloring) then it won't ever get worn. (He's very particular about stitching and fabric; he says most clothes are too "scratchy". He always looks at the tag to see how scratchy the tag might be, and how scratchy the hem of the neck might be.)

Also, trying to do him a favor is next to impossible. This morning I started wondering if he's like you, just not willing to speak up and ask for something, and if I'm "running roughshod" over him. But I remember that there are times when I offer to do things for him, and he usually declines. He just simply does something himself if he wants to. It took a long time for him to get accustomed to living with someone else and, for example, thinking of bringing them a glass of water if he's getting one for himself. That sort of thing.

Do you think your H is simply used to you not asking for much, and when you do ask, if he says no you seem ok with it, except for when you reply with a bitter comment (in which case he's still not inclined to do it then)? Do you think he's simply used to you doing all these things for him and doesn't know why resentment is building?

Do you think he's assuming that if you really want things to be different, that you will speak up? I mean really speak up... letting him know this isn't just one of the seemingly passing requests that you've contentedly accepted a "no" response to, all these many years?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm the kind of person where, if the phone rings, I get up to answer it. If the doorbell rings, I answer it. I don't think H has ever answered our door. He simply makes no attempt to get up; I don't think it even occurs to him because I've always done it. That's what our relationship is like. I just...do. I want everything done, hoping or expecting someone else to do it is just...not giving up control so much as putting myself vulnerable to whether the other person will choose to act or not; and if not, that brings up other stuff like did they choose not to because of me, my self-esteem issues, things like that. It's just uncomfortable to ever go near that stuff, so I just automatically do everything.

I guess I need to start going back to IC.

why How about ? You're about to go from laden with baggage to FREE!

I appreciate the attempt, but I look at IC as painful and embarrassing. I guess because I can't let myself trust anyone, even an IC. Gotta get rid of that toxic shame, I know.

Cat, I meant to tell you, there was somehting you shared with me last time that really made a difference for me. Where you didn't want to get a pedicure, but needed the foot rub part for the extreme pain, so your IC suggested that you picture the thousands of women getting a pedicure at that moment. It really helped me step back and make decisions that fit my family better, instead of what "should" be. Specifically there were holidays we didn't celebrate with the extended family. That doesn't make me a failure, I can picture thousands of folks sharing the holidays with their immediate family only.

Aw... *hugs*

I just wish I could get inside you for one day, and speak up for you! Kinda like those movies where two people switch bodies.

You have no problem speaking up here. And you have several examples of when your H actually did attempt to change when confronted.

Reading those posts about resentment... do you think the root of this resentment isn't really your H? I mean, it may be *now* the *current* cause of ongoing fuel for resentment... but... this dynamic was laid down years and years ago, and only recently have you even thought about trying to change the dynamic. Your H can't read minds, and anyone would have trouble changing the status quo that's been set for years and years.

About the back rubs... you mention rubbing your mom's back for *years*. Wow. That's really something. I think maybe I've given my mom a back rub *once*. I think DH and I have given each other back rubs less than a dozen times. I don't think I've had a back rub in years. I've had some lower back pain the past few months, asking for a back rub didn't even occur to me. Taking an aspirin did.

I'm not scolding you for valuing back rubs. I'm just saying that not everyone thinks about back rubs very often. I wonder if your experience with your mom is at the root of some of this resentment, hinged on the high value and expectation of back rubs from when you gave them to your mom and no one else was around to do that, and it seemed like a necessity. Were you free to say no? Were you dreaming of the day when someone would be doing that for you?

Yeah, what is this stuff about back rubs anyway!!???

:twobyfour: (I'll rub someone's...er..ah..back!)

Oh, I just remembered what I always turn to first... a hot tub or jacuzzi bath! With candles, a good book, and a cup of tea or glass of wine.

ETA: I've even put a board across our bathtub to use as a "desk" when I'm sitting in the tub. I put my laptop on the board, and can surf or watch online tv shows or movies. I had to get a longer board after my laptop fell in once. Yes, it (and I) survived.

About just doing things, and then kind of resenting the other person for not doing it, I know exactly what you mean. I tend to take care of what needs to be done. This weekend, I asked my wife if she would hand out the half-time snacks for my boy's soccer game if I go buy them. She enthusiastically said yes. So when it came to pass them out, she grabbed the snacks I had for after-game, and I told her that I had fruit for half-time....and then I started passing them out.

That was pretty stupid and selfish of me, in hindsight. I show her respect by asking for help, then I tell her she's doing it wrong and take it away from her. Did it really matter what snacks she passed out? A little. Could I have told her first? Yes. Could I have packed the half-time snacks on top? yes. Could I have just told her instead of grabbing them and doing it myself? yes.

It's minor, but my desire to control minor things adds up to "I don't think you can handle it". And then I turn around and complain that I did everything (or atleast I used to).

She hasn't mentioned it, but I need to get back to her and apologize for that.

Jayne, I'm the bathtub queen of our house, but even I've never done that.

"Hi everyone, guess where I'm posting from? That's right, I'm coming at you from right here in my bathtub! Surrounded by lots of tiny bubbles and candles, I'm sitting here drinking wine and typin..........@#$#$&^#*@&@*@$%^@$...... "

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zzzzzpppphhhhhhttttttttt

Thanks, ears. It's good to know that something I said helped.

Jayne, that's what I was trying to say, that 'serving' my mom all those years kind of set the stage for how I turned out, as well as set the resentment bar high. But that doesn't change that it makes me feel...less than...when H doesn't reach the same conclusions I do - that to love someone means to do FOR them. That is MY definition of love, and I want him to share it, because the way HE shows love means nothing to me. He spends money on me, he provides great SF, but it's none of the things I keep asking for. And we all know that that's not much.

Bottom line, I guess, I have to spell it out for him.

Ah, but... haven't you read The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman? (I think)

So your main love language is Acts Of Services. That's perfectly fine, but that isn't the only way a person might show love. It is equally valid if someone has as their main love language, Words of Affirmation, or Quality Time (like Conversation, or RC), or Gifts. Those are also valid.

It sounds like his main love languages are Gifts, Physical Touch, and Quality Time (Conversation) or possibly Words of Affirmation. You look at how that person gives love to find out how they want to receive love.

Yes the best thing is for each spouse to learn the other's love language, and show their love in the other's love language. But your H isn't here, so I'm telling you that, just because your H speaks a different language than you, doesn't mean he doesn't love you.

Perhaps he feels unloved if you don't buy or make him gifts, and when you give physical tough grudgingly, or seem less than enthusiastic about listening to him talk about his day.

Jayne, I know all that. But honestly, it just seems like another way of saying keep giving to hope you get. I know what H wants, and I work to give it to him. I know because I pay attention to him. I spent $1000 on clothes for him for Christmas, cos I know he values wearing fancy clothes. I know he likes meat with mashed potatoes and gravy, so when he's having a bad day, I make sure his dinner contains that, his comfort food. Stuff like that.

But I've come close to giving in and giving up because of our relationship, and he knows it - he's taken the knife out of my hands before. He knows about my ADs, my IC, he knows how much I need/want him to help with the house; it's come up several times and he nods his head like he understands how unhappy I've been...and never does anything.

I'm not trying to vilify him. He's a great guy. But when it comes to actively stopping and thinking about ME - as in let's make today about catperson, or she deserves XYZ...he just doesn't do it.

I know it's my fault for not speaking up more. I guess I'm just looking for the extra thought.

So this morning I remind H that D18 goes to work at 5. I ask him what his plans are; he says 'I don't know, why?' I say that I have several things I want to get done today and I just want to make sure I don't interfere with his plans. No response, so I tell him what I need to do. No response. I tell him that I'd like it if the 3 of us do the errands together; he says we could also go to the gym together. I say great!

He mentions that the bird seed is all over the patio (squirrels knocked it over). Next thing you know, he's out there clearing off the whole patio; I go out to help, since I had wanted to do it anyway. Takes an hour. So I think we're getting ready to go do the errands, next thing I know he's out with the power washer, getting soap to wash D18's car. I tell her it looks like he wants to wash her car, she gets ticked off cos he always decides when we'll do such things without asking us. I go outside, he says did you tell her to come out? I said yeah, but she's upset. He comes in, she goes right up to him and starts arguing with him about making plans without asking us (like I should be doing). He goes back out and starts cleaning the undercarriage of all three cars, and I wait for him to spray down the cars so we can wash them and get it over with so we can get to the errands. He doesn't so I pull weeds. He still doesn't, so I go up and say aren't you going to spray down the cars? He says no and just moves on to clean out under the hood of his car. *sigh* It's an hour later.

So what did I do wrong? I thought I discussed it correctly, but it's still out of my control, and it's 2 hours later.