Thanks, guys. I suppose the real place I need to be is where I can tell him, either you get help, or I leave. Just not quite there yet.

Cat, I know my mind goes there, too, but you know, that doesn't really sound like the folks on here that were really success stories. The ones who were really success stories did their thing, and relationship changed (or didn't) accordingly. You don't have solely two choices: listen to the whole three hours of tirade or leave for good. You could go out for a few hours. Suggest another activity. Burst out laughing, "Wow, are we really choosing to spend the afternoon like this?!" Pieta used to suggest lots of fun things to defuse the tension, like running around with water pistols. Give him a Quaker Chewy Oatmeal Bar like that comercial where'd they're trying to stop the kids from saying embarassing things. Or a peanut butter sandwich with no jelly, that'd slow him down LOL. Or some HOT tea that he has to keep blowing on to cool down. Get a new camera and ask him for his biggest smile Ask him to help you remember the words to that song you two used to like. Lose something down your shirt and ask him to find it You could say, oh, I forgot I told my mom I was going to call her back. Hundreds of other options.

I'm lost. What are you referring to? What happened yesterday or my current position in general?

I am referring to the idea that you have two choices today: stay and be miserable, or leave and be happy. You will know when you're out cat. Until then, what do you want to do with today?

I know I feel a little hopeless at those moments, but it helps to give myself some comical images, so I can go back out there laughing. Not that I remember all the time, but it does help the day go differently when I remember. Just having company yesterday changed the dynamic. Wouldn't it have been funny if when your H launched into his tirade, you would have made those hand going sideways motions, and whispered to him, "don't look now, but he's behind you." And then make a funny cover like, "Oh, you're such a joker, always saying things you don't mean." Not that the guy WAS there, but it would have been funny to him, right? To get nervous, and then look around, and be relieved he wasn't there?

? What guy are you talking about?

Thanks for the reassurance about choices.

Here's the one thing I want: for H to stop having everything that comes out of his mouth be negative. For him to see the lady next door washing her car with her kid yesterday and, instead of saying 'Gee, that's something I never thought I'd see - her working', to say 'Wow, isn't that cute how Ethan is trying to help his mom wash the car?'

That's why I feel so desparate. That's the one thing I have no control over - how HE thinks.

I'm talking about your DD18's smoking friend. You can make a joke, pick up the cell as if it was on silent, and say, Oh, David, we were JUST talking about you! The limo's too small? Oh, man, how thoughtful, thanks for telling me, I'll get right on it. Nothing but the BEST for my little princess's big day.


And cat, that's one of many things that has no control over you. You are free, cat.

Didn't pieta say something like this: put $50 in quarters in a jar with his name on it. Make sure you tell him what you're doing; make it a lighthearted thing. Every time he says something negative, get up and go put a quarter in the other jar wiht your name on it. When you get the $50, make an appointment for a pedicure: you earned it! A friend does something similar to help herself stop cursing, and it really brings her attenion to it when her friend over the phone says, that's $1.

Anyhow, cat, thanks for getting me thinking today. When I get home, I'm not going to let anyone get me down. I'm going to try using some humor to defuse the tension. "Altogether now! If you're happy and you know it clap you're hands" No matter how bad a day H is having, at least he can feel a little better that he isn't as off my rocker as I am

Thanks, ears. I don't remember that quarter thing, but I think I'm going to pursue it. It would be a great visual cue for him, and a help for me.

I sent him an email thanking him for washing and waxing my car. I've decided I have to keep taking the high road, no matter what he does.

Oh, cat, I love to hear that! Like LA says, what you do to others you will do to yourself. That goes true for the happy stuff, too!

What are you thankful about yourself this weekend? I am thankful that you were kind and shared of yourself here on the board with others

Thankful? Hmm...I got nothing.

Well, H hung up my wipe-off calendar. That was only to make up for being an a$$, but at least it got hung up.

Oh, you mean me? Hmm. No, I guess I'm just not in the right mindset.

Cat, maybe you need to be more upfront with your husband and say "I do not want to hear one more negative comment from you today". Then leave the room if you need to. My husband has the potential is be very pessimistic and gloomy, and I had just had enough of it, so I made that statement.

I explained that his bitter comments were bringing me down and putting me in a bad mood. Perhaps your dh needs to hear that as well.

Happy, I know that works with most people, but I have told him, and D18 has told him that exact thing - "please stop making negative comments" or "if you keep talking that way I'm going in the other room" or "why do you have to find the negative in that situation?" or "will you at least try to find something positive about it?" or "I disagree; he wasn't trying to steal from you"...on and on. I have even bet him a couple times, in a light mood, that he can't go an hour without saying a negative comment; he couldn't. It is just the way he thinks. Severe childhood, he is in constant, nonstop protection mode.

That is why I said I don't think he can ever get past it without serious, serious IC.

Here's an example. He stops for gas yesterday. The machine isn't taking his card, or something. He's standing there for a long time trying to get it to work; he's on the phone talking to the credit card company. A bum walks out of the store part and asks him for money. He ignores the guy. The guy won't leave him alone. MrCat yells at him 'can't you see I'm on the phone?' and the bum starts getting belligerent, saying he's gonna knock MrCat down, stuff like that. Now you and I know he is just a bum. He's got a crappy life, and he is all idle threats, right? So MrCat not only calls 911 and tries to bring the cops so he can press charges (by this time the bum has walked on down the road to other stores), he gives the cops the license plate of the car next to him who 'witnessed' this man 'trying to kill him' in case something happens to him. And then he tells the cops that it obviously was a setup because the woman running the gas/store inside was Black, this man was Black, and she purposely didn't let the pump work to keep MrCat there so the guy would have plenty of time to 'work' him, cos he is White.

And then he calls me after he finally gets the gas and tells me that he's probably going to find two charges for gas on his card cos they were purposely scamming him, and tells me about the whole thing, indignant, expecting me to commiserate with him. This happens all.the.time. Every week there is at least one incident like this. And if I dare say anything that even sounds like I may not agree with him, he blows up at me for questioning him and not siding with him. I am not 'allowed' to not agree with him; well, I can do whatever I want, obviously. But it will not turn out well.

The problem I have is that, aside from that one thing, that chip on his shoulder, he is an amazing person! I've never met a more ethical person. Just tons of great things about him. And the better his life goes, the less this is an issue. So of course, the last 10 years or so have gotten progressively worse workwise and moneywise, so the negativity is starting to consume him.

I keep seeing that he's described as negative, cat. Certainly his comments are negative. His behavior sounds paranoid to me though and the negativity is a manifestation of that.

Like you said, he might need some kind of professional help. Perhaps even more than just an IC. I have an uncle who was diagnosed as a manic depressive. He's also an alcoholic. I think in his case, the booze was a result of his MD disorder. He was self medicating.

When he was 3 sheets to the wind, he was great to be around. Very mild and very functional. As a kid, I never even knew he was sauced. When he quit drinking, he turned into a right [censored] for about a year. I didn't want to be around him. Just plain mean, cynical, and sour toward everybody and everything.

He got better. I don't know if he just learned how to handle without the booze, or got put on some medication. That older generation of my family still doesn't talk about things.

No solutions here from me cat. Just some thoughts and an attempt to provoke.

Cat, what's your plan for events that happen like that?

Thanks, seabird.

ears, I'm open to suggestions. He knows he is negative. He knows we don't like it. But nothing ever changes. I mean, I could say 'the next negative thing you say, I'm going to hang up/leave the room/take another car.' But if I do that, I would never see him! He simply cannot stop thinking that way. Even when he agrees to try to stop, he can't.

So like I said, the only solution I can think of is to tell him I can no longer live with him until he gets help.

ETA: Seabird, I just remembered that H's mother was unofficially diagnosed (by my IC, whom I had told all about MIL) as paranoid schizophrenic. She up and moved out of a home we had built for her - without telling us where she went! - simply because she came to believe (with the help of her other son) that H and I were embezzling all her money (because we asked her to help pay the note on the house, and because we wouldn't give her the title until it was paid for). Well, that and because the next-door neighbors kept sending their cockroaches over to her house.

I never thought about it before, but I wonder if any of that could be related?

Sounds like a great solution to me Kind of like how star*fish says when you're tired of paying tug-of-war, let go of the rope.

Cat, you used to say your H had a really nice friend. How about planning double dates together or somehting? Not to replace the UA time, but as a supplement? I know that's not an MB idea, so feel free to discard it, but it has really helped me to get to spend time with my H at his most relaxed and comfortable. I treasure those opportunities to connect with that awesome guy I fell in love with. Maybe it's a chemical thing, but it really recharges my batteries to spend time with him when he's happy.

Well, yeah Cat. I mean, you've spent 30 years with the guy and obviously know him better than me, or anyone else here. Conversely, there might be a bit of forest-through-the-trees thing going on with ya'll. You might not be seeing him clearly or objectively enough. I don't know. Just thinking out loud a bit. From what you've described (which is all any of us have to go on), it sounds a bit like he's dealing with everybody'souttogetme-itis. I don't know what a doctor would call that; paranoid schizophrenia or whatever...

But when a behavioral quirk reaches a point that it becomes almost debilitating and threatens to drive away even those people who are closest, then likely a serious problem. Especially if the problem seems to have progressed and gotten worse.

The trick is, how do you get someone like that seek help? Is he in denial? Does he recognize an issue. I guess not since he won't even see an IC. Or perhaps he -does- recognize a problem and he's afraid of facing it with a professional...

I don't know any of the answers to these questions. I'm not even sure the questions are appropriate.

Did you know that schizophrenia might be hereditary?
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/schizophrenia/what-causes-schizophrenia.shtml

Wow, thanks seabird! This really fits:
The symptoms of schizophrenia fall into three broad categories:

Positive symptoms are unusual thoughts or perceptions, including hallucinations, delusions, thought disorder, and disorders of movement.
Negative symptoms represent a loss or a decrease in the ability to initiate plans, speak, express emotion, or find pleasure in everyday life. These symptoms are harder to recognize as part of the disorder and can be mistaken for laziness or depression.
Cognitive symptoms (or cognitive deficits) are problems with attention, certain types of memory, and the executive functions that allow us to plan and organize. Cognitive deficits can also be difficult to recognize as part of the disorder but are the most disabling in terms of leading a normal life.
He never follows through on anything. His socks have been in the same drawer for almost 6 years, yet every morning, he looks in the wrong drawer for them. He keeps getting opportunities to create companies, good opportunities, but he never follows through. People are always telling him they don't understand why he's not a millionaire by now cos he's so brilliant. And ears, I just got off the phone with his close friend; we were trying to come up with a vacation to take cos friend is worried about MrCat's 'depression.'

Wow. Never even thought of that. But how to bring it up? He doesn't even speak to his mom because of her having it and all she's done to hurt him. This would terrify him.

ETA: That would explain why it's getting worse, his outtogetmeism.

How about finding a psychiatrist for an MC? They often do screenings for metal disorders as part of the initial intake. You can mention your concern and check to see if they would screen for this before you make the appointment. When is he due for his next check-up? Would his MD be willing to screen your H for this if you ask? If he screens negative, then you can discuss these issues without discussing his mom's illness. But if he screens positive, they can provide appropriate advice.

How would that affect your choices? If he's suffering from a mental illness that he's not aware of, would you still be comfortable leaving him next year, without asking him to be screened first?

No.