Hello again,
Its been a while since I posted and all but gave up on this site and my marriage. I am not sure what has led me back here but here I am.

Long story short. W and I have been separated since Sept 2008. Spent 6 months in counseling prior to separation, supsected W was having an EA and possible PA with former coworker. Tried a trial separation (I know that is discouraged against here but we felt we tried everything), 3 months into separation W said things are over for good, she still denied PA, says that we just can't make it work and so for both of our best interest and long term happiness that we need to end it and move on. We have two daughters 11 and 19 and we were M for 13 years. We are not divorced and neither of us have filed for D yet. She has admitted to dating former coworker after our separation but according to here there is nothing serious. According to her, he has no expectations of her, does not judge her. I honestly have no idea how serious their relationship is.

During the 7+ months we have separated, I have been happy, stress-free, enjoing life. Our 11 year daughter is doing well with things but she is sad and a little bit angry. The separation for the most part was initiated by W and says that her relationship with coworker was as a result of our bad marriage and not the cause of it so this is her justification in her mind.

So why am I here? Well I am hoping for some advice and possibly a good smack up side of the head.

I am not going to lie, I still very much love my W and if she came to me today begging to come back, after I set forth some strong boundaries and a plan to move forward, I would likely accept her back. However, this will never happen. She is too stubborn and this is not in the cards for her. But I just cannot let my feelings for her go. My first question is, when do you know that it is truly over? I am not hoping for a bunch of flaming here but some real assurances here on what I should be doing. Do I want to fight for my W - yes. Do I want to be happily M to her - yes. Do I wish that our family could be one happy family again - yes.


Right now I am torn between fighting for her and letting it go and moving forward with the D.

Part of me wants to continue to fight for her. The other part of me wants to just let it go and move on with my life. I really am not sure what to do. So I am here looking for a little guidance. At this point, my W will not even enterain the idea of any sort of reconcilliation. i am not sure what her true feelings are towards me. She has pretty much shut down with regards to any emotions with regards to the M these last 7 months. As she puts it in order to deal with the separation she has swept all emotions under the rug and is looking at the situation very cognitively.

I am considering sitting down with her and asking her to give us another chance, start at the beginning, put the past behind and move on but I have my doubts as to whether or not that will work. I really do not know what to do. Need some help.

Thank you for listening.

If you did not do a plan A first time will you do it now?

I guess I just need to decide if I want to try and make a go of it or not. And if I do, is Plan A the place to start? Can you do a Plan A if you are separated? We have frequent contact and get along well. Its just that as a happily married couple we struggle.

It's harder, but absolutely YES you can Plan A. You actually get to be a bit more creative and then get to get a break from the one sided ness of Plan A

Well, I moved on and went to PLAN D. I still see and talk to my fWWxW. I hear what you are saying. Filing for PLAN D might just wake her up though? Are you giving her any emotional or financial support other than CS?

What4,

What would she do if she was served with divorce papers from you?

Would that shock her into action? One way or another?

I think she is skating right now and is content.

You don't ever have to sign them, of course.

But if she does, then maybe you have your answer.

Just a thought. Maybe a bad one.

kirk

WN,

You struggle as a couple because you are not together as a couple.

She has been in an affair - so there was a struggle. That is the other reason you two struggled as a couple.

Think about it - if she put the effort into being MARRIED TO YOU as she put into HER AFFAIR

do you think you would struggle as a couple???????


NO - OF COURSE NOT!


Because you struggled as a couple because she LEFT YOU FOR ANOTHER MAN.

And now, that affair is OVER.
The fantasy bubble has burst. And she is telling you that "oh, it wasn't REALLY an affair" or "oh, it wasn't much of anything"

so you will think she didn't leave you for the OM

and you will consider taking her back.


Get into the real world now.

If you want to save this marriage, get honest with yourself, first. Then, once you have accepted the fact that your marriage was nuked by an affair, you can proceed with the correct plan in place!

Recognize that your WW will lie about the affair - by downplaying like she is. If you expect to recover your marriage, you will need to understand to the fullest extent exactly where that extramarital relationship stands right now. If she is still in contact with OM, you will need to expose the affair, and do it fast.

Expose to family, friends, everyone. Let everyone know that the affair is going on, and that you have

FINALLY

decided to step up to the plate and fight for your marriage.

Let them know that you were blinded by (I have no idea what) but now you are ready to fight for the marriage and for your wife.

Then, put on the best Plan A anyone has seen. You need to reach down "there" and find your manhood. Because you will need to show your wife exactly what you have changed about yourself, that you plan to stand up and be a man, and that you are in charge of your future and of the marriage. That you have a plan in place to make the marriage work - and that you have ideas about what changes the marriage will need in order to survive.

Those changes and plans - are MarriageBuilders plans.


Then, call your wife and tell her that you are ready to recover the marriage. Tell her you need to talk, for a long time, together. Tell her what you think you did wrong in the marriage, what you think you did right in the marriage. Have a good conversation about what a GOOD marriage can look like

talk about POJA
Emotional needs

And recovery after an affair


And tell her that you think that your marriage can

and should

recover.


And if you think you can do this - and if you think you are ready for the world's toughest emotional rollercoaster


Then buy your ticket and get on board.

SB

What Next,
I agree with Imagine on starting Plan A. I think the best thing in a situation like this is to put your best efforts forward and if it doesn't work out, at least you have peace of mind knowing you tried. You'll never have that doubt that you could have done more or walked away to soon. You can find more on the Plan A and B as one of the forums.

GG

I don't really think that serving her with papers will make much of a difference. In her mind it is over anyway. But as the advice suggests, perhaps this is due to the fog that the A has created about reality.

Thanks schoolbus for the reality check and the challenge to my fortitude.
I am still on the fence as to whether or not I want to fight for this M. I guess due to the simple fact that I am here looking and responding implies that I am willing to fight for the M.

Where to begin???

After reading Plan A and Plan B again, I think I have done Plan A in the past without even realizing it. Last year she agreed to no contact and we worked pretty hard on the relationship but things were going OK until the no contact feel through. Shortly after is when we separated and for the first two months, I had no contact except dealing with kids and necessities but did no use the mediary. Shortly after that was when she told me that it was really over and I needed to move on. She has not ever told me that she does't love me. She has tried to hide her feelings and as I mentioned earlier, sweep them under the rug. I am pretty confused on what to do. Plan A again, is that even possible at this point?

I would speak to her about the condition of the marriage. Your start to the marriage shows little regard to a permanent relationship. Consider the impact of a marriage to a couple before speaking. If there is still an EA in progress, it must be stopped through exposure.

Consider her EN's. Meet them. What did OM have that got him a foothold. Beat him. Learn all about LB's and how to avoid them. Do this for you!

Focus on marriage should be more important than your kids. Your kids will come right if your marriage is Okay.

Read the articles above as well as "His needs/Her needs" Dr Harley.

Good luck!

But speaking her makes no difference because as far as she is concerned, the M is over. How do I begin to change that? The EA is pretty much exposed to those that matter but she plays it off as 'just friends' while we were living together but since we have separated they have been seeing each other. In her mind, he does not judge her, expect anything from her and when they are together there is no stresses to deal with and no emotions. She is a bit of an emoitional mess, pushing all feelings and emotions under the rug. She refuses to get any counseling and believes that time will heal and make things better. Not better between us just life in general better for her.

With regards to Plan A, how do you balance a Plan A with not providing her financial and emotional suppport as has been suggested that I not do. This part is a little confusing.

Also as far as revealing the affair, I have been contemplating bringing a friend of her's into the picture to help me. She is friends with both the other man and my W. I believe that she will help me to end the A because she has told me in the past that she wishes we could work things out and she tells W often that I am the right person to be with.

How does one expose an A given my circumstance?

I think you have Plan A and Plan B a little mixed up.

And I don't think you did either Plan A or B while you were separated, but a sort of floaty do-it-yourself messy ambiguous not worthwhile thing.

Now, you are faced with exactly what you put into the recovery attempt:

A floaty, do-it-yourself, messy, ambiguous, not-worthwhile, feeling about what to do and where to go with the marriage.

And your wife feels the same way.

[font:Comic Sans MS]YOU GET OUT OF YOUR MARRIAGE EXACTLY WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.[/font]



Take a close look at the marriage builders plan for recovery. Let's just pretend you are at phase one - and just walked in the door. Start there, and check off what you have done.

Exposure: that looks about complete.

Separation: you blew this one. Advice is to stick it out, and try to stay together if possible. So, that being said and done, you can't go back and undo it.

Emotional Needs: Fill out the ENQ - one for yourself, and ask her to fill one out. If she won't do one, you fill it out, and figure out what EN's you are not filling for her. Then, focus your plan on filling them to the best of your ability - because you have NOT done...

Plan A: This is where you look for - and capitalize on - opportunities to meet your spouse's emotional needs. You find the things about your spouse that you love, and you look in yourself and remember the things your spouse loves about you...and you bring them into their best light at each and every opportunity. You do NOT lovebust. You do NOT disrespect your spouse, and you do NOT enter into outbursts with your spouse. You work hard to put your best foot forward at every interaction with your spouse - and you work hard at changing the things about yourself that YOU identify as needing changing. And you look hard at yourself for the things that your spouse has identified in the past as being the things that have been undesirable about you, and working to change those things that need to be changed, making sure that you expose those changes to your spouse as they should be.

You also use the advice in:::::

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

because - there are two sides of Plan A. While you are working your Plan A, you must also work hard to show that you are STRONG, and not a doormat. Working only part of this plan could leave you looking weak, if the focus were only on doing things to appease the wayward and to improve yourself. But that is not the whole plan. There is a stick to this, which is to impose the non-acceptance of the affair onto the wayward. Read the STICK part of the plan - it includes not accepting lame excuses, justifications for affairs, fogbabble, continued contact with the affair partner, and behavior that is not in concert with rebuilding the marriage. And that stick includes directing the wayward in the path home - the ideas that will make for rehabilitation and reconciliation of the marriage.


See, you haven't worked a Plan A. So your WW hasn't begun to even understand who you are. And you haven't, either.


You don't have your legs under you yet, because when this affair hit you - you sat down.

Stand up. Fight for your marriage, and announce it from the treetops.

Watch your wife stand up and take notice. Your announcement may just make her complacency, and your own, disappear.

Point's well taken. You are right and I was devastated by the situation and gave up on my M. It has been 7 months and I feel that I am ready to fight for it. But is it too late? Where do I start? The A has now turned into a relationship that many people know about but perhaps not the full extent. How do I expose without coming across as vendictive - I guess is the best way to put it. I really have nothing to lose and I realize that but at the same time because the A is not a big secret any longer will exposure really help.

I am not even sure that I am emotionally up for the challenge but I am going to give it a shot and try my best. I am trying to find a copy of Surviving an Affair but local bookstores don't have it and I really need it now. I will order online and get it asap.

As far as starting plan A, I am working on the carrot part right now and have started the last few days. W is out of town until tomorrow with DD and then is going out of town for the weekend I believe with him and a group. I want to talk to her before they go out of town and let her know that I am not giving up and I am going to fight for this. Is this a good idea and if so do what am I supposed to tell her? I am not supposed to divulage my plan A but at the same time I want her to know that I don't approve of the A and that I don't want her to go out of town this weekend with him.

This is a lot harder than I thought it was going to be emotionally and physically.

What made her walk away from you initially. Was it the EA. Was it not meeting her EN's. Why did you move away from so quickly? Did she have problems?

Regain her confidence by sending texts. Ask her how she is. Send her a pizza from time to time with a comment like "Thinking of you. Hope you are Ok". Sweep her stoop without her knowing and leave a flower in the door. C'mon be creative.

Study the articles here about lovebusting and meeting EN's. Get involved.

She walked or I guess better put was we decided to separate because of not meeting each other's EN's. I wasn't meeting her's and she wasn't meeting mine. She started the EA due to the typical not getting her EN's met. I fully understand and own my role in that part of it. The EA has moved to a PA since we have been separated. We both separated because we just weren't happy together and even now I have my doubt's that we can be happy but I feel I want to continue trying. THe hard part is convincing her that we need to keep trying and also breaking up the EA/PA. Since we are separated she does not see it as an A but rather her moving on with her life and seeing other people. I am scared right now as to how she feels about me deep down. Does she still love me at all or enough to come around during Plan A? I think Plan A is my only shot because if it comes to Plan B then that will never work with her, she is not your typical person and I know her well enough to know that Plan B will only push her farther away and she will never come back.
She does have some problems. She does not feel that she is marriage material. She is pretty selfish, doesn't always care what others think/want, she does what she want's, very stubborn, very closed, not very affectionate. As i type this, it reminds me of why I was not happy because of all the things that I just listed. Which brings me back to why I cam back to this site, is this M worth saving? just because I still love her, can we be happy? Can I get back involved in a M where my W cannot, does not, will not meet my EN's? Why am I trying to make this work, when she does not want to make this work.

I have always been very thoughtful and creative when it comes to doing things for her. Problem is that due to her personality, she is not very receptive or appreciative of these gestures. When we were together, I never got a Valentine's day card or gift, never got a Anniversary card or gift, birthday was a gift and no card. She would never do anything nice, spontaneous, creative or special for me. I was always the giver in the relationship and she was the taker.

I did do my fair share of LBing and not meeting her EN's over the years but it was due to frustration with her not returning the favor. We talked alot about that during counseling sessions and I think she felt made the decision that she was not marriage material.

The A was not te cause of the M breakup but it over the last year or more it has defenitely played a huge role in preventing any sort of reconcilliation. Again, I take responsibility for that as much as her for not man-ing up and putting an end to it.

Typing this has really got me thinking about whether or not this M is worth saving. Is me loving her enough of a reason?

Hmmmm!!!!!!

Whatnext,
It's hard for me to muster the effort to want to meet my WW's en's yet again. For many many years I would do so much for her. Little things. Romantic things. Big things. She would just take and take and take.

I didn't mind at first. I didn't mind doing those things. I didn't it out of my love for her. Not because it made me feel good. After a while, I got a hollow feeling. Not so much a selfish feeling. But, you want to stand up and say:

"HEY WHAT ABOUT ME OVER HERE."
Or
"Do you even notice the things I do for you?"

After second affair and second d-day. WW said something to the effect that she didn't think I loved her. That hurt. I never stopped doing the laundry list of little things (including the laundry). Yeah, the romantic things slowed down a bit. But the big things didn't stop.
I asked her to think about it. What wasn't I doing? No, I wasn't meeting a few of her big EN's. There were reasons for that. But she's not versed in EN's so she didn't really know that I wasn't meeting those.
For a person who has been a giver throughout a marriage, even if they weren't meeting the right EN's, I feel it's very hard to want to re-double your efforts for a WS who's a taker. Sure you could tell a taker WS that they are a taker. But that will end up being a huge LB.
For me, I told WS (in writing), in detail what I needed from her. I'm not sure she's even read it yet. And that was 3 or 4 days ago. For me that's huge LB in itself...

It's hard to know, if it's worth the effort. The BS changing alone it's going to cut it. I'm always left with the feeling that the lucky one is the WS. They made a mistake and then get to reap all the positive benefits. A BS meeting their needs, a chance to start over in a better marriage. And hey, if it doesn't work, NOT THEIR FAULT.

That is pretty much where I am at. But at this point, she has given up on the M, we are separated and as far as she is concerned it is over. I have a huge hill to climb and really not sure what is at the top of it. I can hope that if I climb the hill, meet her EN's that will make her happy, then she will in turn make an attempt to meet mine as well. I find this to be a huge stretch but nonetheless, I am going to climb aboard and give it a try. I think the reward is worth the risk.

Well I guess ready or not I am about to seriously begin Plan A tonight with a talk with W. She is go out of town with him tomorrow for the weekend and I am going to talk to her tonight about things. I am going to make an attempt at asking her to not go and spend some time with me this weekend. I don't think she will do it but I want her to get thinking about me. I also plan to work on the stick side of the plan and talk with some friends and family about things.

Wish me luck as tonight is going to be very rough. I have been saying prayers all day and trying to figure out what I am going to say. I think she will be completely surprised by what I am about to say. I think she really feels that I am over this M and have moved on. Tonight she is going to find out that is not the case and that I am in this to save my marriage.

Man am I scared.
I will post how things go later tonight.

Prayer is very, very good start.

Pray for opportunities to regain your marriage. Is she Christian? Visit your pastor if she is!