Hey, I resemble that comment.

But I am NOT DIFFICULT!!!!

Well we may be the estrogen makers but we are the "fairer gender" as well

But once again i think this could apply to either sex. I KNEW MY FWH WAS LYING RIGHT AWAY.

Okay - I think I understand your point better. I agree about the initial conflict. But I do not think it is perpetual or constant. (At least not with the well adjusted person). I don't think it will be a constant conflict for you.

If you are curious, I could lay out my logic, but don't want to T/J.

The main thing I was hoping you heard in my previous post is that you should not lose any of your self-respect because you chose to attempt recovery, even if it crossed a personal boundary.

Let the forum understand the FACTS here. I have met MF ( I just love writing her initials ) IN PERSON, and MF is most certainly an estrogen maker - a very pretty & voluptuous ,and yes, a delightfully difficult, estrogen maker. If you don't believe me, ask MF's delightful handsome HUSBAND , who will back me up

Some items on my 2 lists can possibly (probably) be applicable to the WH group- but I really think there is a difference or two, in some fundamental ways.

I'm not ready to do a male version of this (yet) because I'm not finished thinking about the estrogen-makers

I think that rings quite true. I am a dreadful liar and I can not keep my expression neutral ( the evidence is apparent all over my face - lines everywhere and I'm only 33). I do place myself as type 1, I can tick all the boxes. I think without MB I could/would have become type 2 and did display point 8 (which I think comes with entitlement).

H and I were discussing this thread this morning and we thought if the self loathing and depression got so bad fom being a type 1 and unable to shake off, it may be possible to become a type 2 in a self destruct type of way.

Good point!

Care to elaborate?

Ok, so an A comes along because basically we're not liking where we're at with life and have weak boundaries. So, I guess you have this subconscious thing going on in your head that your worthless, you've messed up, there's no going back now, you've failed. Then you have a guy (any old guy) comes along says a nice word in a friendly way and that's it your hooked.

It becomes and addiction to move through the guys - sticking with same guy too long gets complicated and might hurt you if they or you get too attached, so you just keep moving on - another nice word - feel a bit crap about yourself again another friendly word "oh thanks for that how can i repay you? yep i know..."

So it all just becomes habitual conscience disappears because it has just become you. Something needs to break the cycle. Thank goodness for MB before it became a cycle.

Maybe...?????

Not sure. Are you are asking "would all good liers be WW type II" If so, I would say probably not. But I would say all WW's type II are good liers. (I'm assuming that your list means WW's type II conceal their affairs, as opposed to a WW who unilaterly decides to have an "open" marriage.)

I do think that you can make an arguement that good liars are more likely to be type II. Lying is a skill that takes practice. The people who practice it the most typically have a philsophical bent towards believing that perception is more important than reality. Which tends to fit type II.

Several years ago there were a long series of MB threads about LTAs. The general consensus was an LTA lasts at least twice as long as the Dr Harley definition of a garden variety length affair of two years: i.e. four years.

And a VLTA would be at least twice that, or eight years.

An LTA seems to be somewhere around three-sigma re duration. VLTAs are outliers in the statistics.

The longest VLTA I remember seeing on MB was 28 years, as I recall.

Two things worth knowing about LTAs and VLTAs in general:

1) They become rather low intensity in the main. Think “Same Time Next Year” kind of thing, although that would be an extreme of low intensity. After the first four years, my wife’s VLTA went to weekly calls and emails with an intimate meeting maybe a half dozen times a year. (Although some of these meetings were week long business trips together to exotic places all over the world.)

2) They go on for so long the adulterer becomes what they are doing. It gets in their blood. I do not believe they can ever go back to not being an adulterer. They have been doing it for so long it is fundamentally who they really are. It is how they think now. Even if they are not active at it.



Re lying habits: So true. My wife was a habitual liar about all kinds of small and sundry things long before the start of the VLTA. (Something I did not discover until after we were married.) During the decade of her adultery she became more and more a walking, talking lie. Nothing with her, no matter what, was as it seemed or as she said. Nothing. It became funny, in a way. She would lie even when the truth would serve her better. Even with non-affair things. Things that had no connection to her adultery at all - she still more often than not lied.

This is interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I might be (?) weird, but I have never thought of myself as "worthless".

Where do you suppose that thought came from?

Personally, I think this line of thinking is only an option when a woman has an external locus of control.
*link*

I tend to think this is a better metric for defining a LTA as opposed to length of time. My FWW's A lasted 3.5 years (about 1.5 of an real contact, then about 2 of keeping in touch, etc.). But I define it as a LTA, because it just became part of normal life for her.

However, I disagree that they can never go back.

This is exactly what I was looking for ... thanks for stating this so clearly

Yes. This works for me.

PS - You inspired my latest dumb sig line.

hmmmmmmmm

Do you think that this:


and this:



are connected?

lying = control & power

????????? perhaps ??????????

What if WW is really like #1 but upon discovery comes across as #2?

H's FOW seems like a mix of the two but since he dumped her, I think OW tried to laugh off the A/being dumped because after discovery she looked like a complete idiot. H says she never thought she was "all that" during the A. But to me, she looked like a total witch that was morally bankrupt(#2). For all I know she curls up in a ball every night crying her eyes out because she hates herself and is ashamed of what she has done. But all I see is that she acted like a vindictive b*tch who was only crying that my H didn't leave me for her...if he had she'd be all smiles. Either way I don't feel sorry for her but it is possible her nonchlant behavior was a cover for her to save face in her mind rather than admit she was a troll.

BR - I'm not discussing any OW.
I don't mind your posting about the OW.
It's just that I will not be discussing or offering opinions of any OW on this thread.

The OW was someone's WW though...

As a BW I can only guess what might be going on in a WW's mind not just the OW in my case. It was merely an example.