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WHY MEN LOSE IN FAMILY COURT I think this is the one Mortarman used [he won primary custody of his 4 kids from a SAHM] Fathers Rights Survival Guide
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I'll check the materials out. Thanks.
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Disclaimer: This is my opinion and backup information. This is not one size fits all. This is what I believe to be generally factual.
Here are a couple of factors that may impact one's definition of "worse" in regards to WW and WH.
First and most important big difference. Women usually have to become emotionally involved and attached to a man before they have sex. Men do not have to be particularly "in love" to have sex. Once a woman "gives it up" to OM, she then is generally very committed. Even to the point that sex with her BH is betrayal of her OM.
On the other hand, I think most, certainly not all, men who engage in affairs are less emotionally attached to the OW as the OW is to them. They are in the A for the EN's directed at them by WW. The flattery and sex sometimes fill a perceived need, but still they are less likely to put all of their "love" for their BW completely on hold.
WW can completely forsake their husbands, and their children, and often most others once very dear to them.
This phenomenon, in many cases, seems to make it "easier" for a man to scrap the affair and return to the marriage. I believe that it is much more difficult for a WW to "fall out of love" with an OM and even attempt to rekindle their love with their BH.
The WW also fears returning to the marriage as a "scarlet woman", whereas (unfairly, of course) less stigma is attached to a man engaging in extramarital activities.
Therefore, bottom line, in terms of "worse" as pertains to exiting the affair and returning to the marriage, yes, I believe that WW are worse than WH.
Last edited by shattered dreams; 04/10/09 08:16 PM.
BH - me 53, ONS 1979
FWW - 51, 2 EA's, 1 PA
Last D-Day, Sep. 30, 2003
Last Contact/recovery began 2-26-04
***You can do anything with time and money...but remember...money won't buy you time!***
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RE: why BHs often "roll over" for their WW's
There is the obvious answer of their knowing the deck is stacked against them in family and divorce courts, not believing it's worth the fight. I also think many BHs don't realize they may be exposing their kids to abusive OMs by leaving them with their WWs. They may genuinely believe that leaving the kids in the home with the mother is the best thing for them.
But I also think it goes deeper than that. I think it goes all the way to the fact that many men in this society have simply been raised to bow to the desires of women, even at their expense. In other words, they are raised and conditioned to be "Nice Guys". It usually starts with their mother, who may be a single mom or the dominant partner in a home with both parents-either way often domineering and dysfunctional. Then the little boy gets passed along to teachers in kindergarten and grade school, the vast majority of whom will be female. They learn they get rewarded for following these women's dictates, or at least punished less often.
Then comes puberty. The teenage boy is usually putty in the hands of the teenage girl, who is usually more socially developed than he is and more skilled and manipulation. The teenage boy's "Nice Guy" conditioning usually kicks in full force here, and he finds himself wrapped around the finger of whatever girl catches his eye.
Never in all his training and conditioning is he taught that standing up for himself is ever a good thing.
Fast forward to marriage. He bends over backwards and stands on his head trying to please an often demanding and unhappy wife, living in hope that he can find that one thing to make her happy and finally get the love he thinks he deserves.
Then she cheats, and he's often STILL unable to get over his Nice Guy conditioning enough to even get good and mad at her. He keeps following his old pattern of appeasement, hoping to "guilt" her into coming back to him.The lucky ones get mad enough just in time to grow a spine, and if they find MB they plan A/B their behinds off, and if it doesn't save their marriage, it gives them the courage to fight for a favorable divorce settlement. The rest...get shafted.
The Macnut-42, W - 45 3 stepkids,
SDD - 27, SDS1 - 22, SDS2 - 18
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I think you are right on, MacNut. What makes me sad is these men teach their sons to be pansies and their daughters to be tyrannical monsters who can abuse men. When they leave to appease their wives, in actuality they are abandoning their families. They are leaving their post. They have failed to be a leader in their own family in its time of GREATEST NEED.
They have failed to lead so chaos ensues. This is abandonment.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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But I also think it goes deeper than that. I think it goes all the way to the fact that many men in this society have simply been raised to bow to the desires of women, even at their expense. We have also been conditioned to believe that men are expendable, optional, disposable. Like Gloria Steinham once said, women need men like a fish needs a bike. Women were taught that kids would be just fine without a father, that he is disposable, little more than a sperm donor. So men have not been taught to be leaders. They don't know how to lead so they abandon their posts at the first sign of trouble and just take whatever is dealt them by the tyrannical female in their life. I understand they have been taught they are disposable and were never taught to LEAD, but isn't it their responsibility to overcome that training? Did you know that 70% of teenage male homicides are committed by boys from fatherless homes? That is how "expendable" men really are. In their absence, chaos ensues because they have abandoned their post. Did you also know that many courts view this as abandonment when men leave their families? It harms their legal standing in legal proceedings. I don't think a judge will accept the rationalization that "my wife told me to leave!" I think most judges expect men to do the right thing regardless of what some woman tells him. If I tell the Texas state trooper that my husband told me to drive 85, I don't think that is going to fly. We had a BH on here recently who had left his family because his wife told him to, [she moved the OM right in with she and his children] and I commented that he had abandoned his family. He became FURIOUS at me because in his mind his principles were superceded by the commands of his god-wife. His entire defense was "she told me to leave!!!!" That was that. He proceeded to set me straight about how mean I was for making the suggestion. I guess we should be lucky she didn't tell him to jump off the cliff...  Talk about a sheeple mentality.
Last edited by MelodyLane; 04/11/09 12:11 PM.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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DISCLAIMER: The following are my observations and opinions. They do not reflect any one particular situation, but more an overview of general traits ... and I'm sure that many of you will have experienced "exceptions" to these GENERAL observations.
In general, I've actually been modifying my opinion on this subject somewhat.
While I still view BH/WW situations as much worse (defined as: less likely to recover) than BW/WH scenarios, I am starting to re-evaluate where the "weak link" is located.
I view WH's as more "stupid" in their actions and WW's as more "evil" in their intent, but I'm starting to view the key to R as being women are just better/stronger at being a betrayed spouse, than men are.
It's just my observation, but BW's don't seem to have near the problem of confronting their WH and exposing their actions, while TOO MANY BH's just curl up into a ball, and become paralyzed by their fear of their WW's actions. BW's also seem to do a much better job of "setting the recovery bar high", than BH's do.
I would bet that if a study were done where recoveries were "scored" on their success, that BW/WH recoveries would score much higher than BH/WW situations ... and it appears from a quick review of the roll here at MB would validate that observation.
There are other obvious variables that come into play here also ... WH's don't seem to form the emotional attachments to their OW as WW do to OM ... because of this, I think we see more WW's having already left the M in their mind when they enter into an A, whereas most WH's are just looking for a little something on the side and aren't interested in leaving their W and family.
Another "add-on" observation about the evilness of WW's ... when was the last time you saw or read about a H making false incriminating allegations about their W's to obtain a tactical advantage in D proceedings??? Compare that to how many times we read right here on MB of the opposite occurring.
So I suppose, I see this as a two-headed monster, in that I view WW's as being worse (again defined as: less likely to recover) than WH's ... but I also view BW's as being better (based on the same definition in reverse: more likely to recover) than BH's.
There is a reason why 70% of all D's are initiated by the W ... and I see it as having two intertwined causes ... WW's have already left the M in their minds prior to entering into the A, and BH's are too weak to stand up for themselves or their families. MyRev, This post is AWESOME.....very well thought out and very interesting observations...... "but I'm starting to view the key to R as being women are just better/stronger at being a betrayed spouse, than men are"..... Any thoughts as to why this is???? Possibly because women for years have been in this role more often than men??? Possibly because women have been in the BS role for so long, more has been done/studied/advise been done on how women handle this???? Possibly because women understand the "why's" more than men??? hmmmmm.....interesting thoughts..... not2fun
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But I also think it goes deeper than that. I think it goes all the way to the fact that many men in this society have simply been raised to bow to the desires of women, even at their expense. We have also been conditioned to believe that men are expendable, optional, disposable. Like Gloria Steinham once said, women need men like a fish needs a bike. I'm glad you bought this up, Melody. I know many women don't realize just how pervasive feminist idealogy, especially the more radical kind, is in this society, and how deeply that idealogy affects modern marriage and family relations. I understand they have been taught they are disposable and were never taught to LEAD, but isn't it their responsibility to overcome that training? Assuming they even know they have something they need to overcome. And what they need to overcome includes a lifetime of training and conditioning. We can see how difficult that is from all the posts on these forums from husbands trying to get frigid wives to be more sexual-and usually failing miserably.
Last edited by MacNut; 04/11/09 08:31 PM.
The Macnut-42, W - 45 3 stepkids,
SDD - 27, SDS1 - 22, SDS2 - 18
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We have also been conditioned to believe that men are expendable, optional, disposable. Like Gloria Steinham once said, women need men like a fish needs a bike. Women were taught that kids would be just fine without a father, that he is disposable, little more than a sperm donor. One more thing-this conditioning and training women experience goes a long way to explaining why WW's act the way they do, why they feel a greater sense of entitlement, why they have little problem moving the BH out of the household and replacing him with OM. After all if all men are disposable and replaceable, they why do their feelings even matter? And of course, this attitude is beginning to cause a backlash among men as well. If a man knows he's disposable, he's a little less likely to stick around when things get tough in the marriage. He's a little more likely to run off with some other woman, or to just leave when she cheats, 'cause he knows that means she doesn't care about him any more (if she ever really did). And most importantly, it makes men a little more reluctant to marry in the first place. Especially the second or third time around....
The Macnut-42, W - 45 3 stepkids,
SDD - 27, SDS1 - 22, SDS2 - 18
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I do not think that women are necessarly raised to think that men are expendable, i certainly was not anyway. It was the opposite for me, you stayed married no matter what your H did. I think it is a society thing.
My parents had me later in life so they were from the generation of the MEN were the "bread winner of the family", he worked to feed and support his family, the WOMEN were the "caretaker of the family", she stayed home and took care of the children, the home, prepared meals etc. With my parents generation the women catered to the men and divorce was not really heard of too much regardless in the H was having an A or not.
With time and womens lib and just all of today's ME in society, i think both genders go into relationships with selfish thinking (such as if i really don't like this person i can leave or divorce or whatever) and while yes we should always know that we do not have to (and should not) stay in an abusive relationship, we all feel entitled to leave a relationship so easily it seems (both genders).
It seems that "nothing is sacred" in today's world so it is easy to just walk away from ANYTHING for both genders. And i do believe that although "society" is changing everyday and it is getting "less so" today, but i think that women are looked "down upon" more for having affairs then men are. Like i said the "boys will be boys" attitude.
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I do not think that women are necessarly raised to think that men are expendable, i certainly was not anyway. It was the opposite for me, you stayed married no matter what your H did. I think it is a society thing. You must have had more conservative parents, SC. I was raised by a feminazi in combat boots who was part of the 60's movement. She taught her children that men were inferior in every way, intellectually, emotionally, etc. Basically useless human beings that couldn't be trusted, much less NEEDED. [they were "oppressors" of women, blah, blah...]  I remember reading the "Wonder of Boys" when my boys were little and being shocked to learn that boys actually NEED fathers for a proper upbringing!! I was taught the opposite, that fathers were unnecessary. They were little more than a CHILD SUPPORT check and otherwise useless. Women have taught men that they are disposable, so many men have taken up that mantle and actually BELIEVE IT! They roll over without a fight and will abandon their families at the request of their tyrannical W. He is equally to blame, IMO, for going along with this. The notion that men are expendable is very prevalent in society today as a result of that poisonous brainwashing done by those bitter, angry old harpies from the 60s. The damage they have done to marriage and families is just phenomenal.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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p.s. despite how ppl are raised, we are all responsible for own behavior and attitudes at age 18. The buck stops right here and we can no longer blame our parents.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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DISCLAIMER: The following are my observations and opinions. They do not reflect any one particular situation, but more an overview of general traits ... and I'm sure that many of you will have experienced "exceptions" to these GENERAL observations.
In general, I've actually been modifying my opinion on this subject somewhat.
While I still view BH/WW situations as much worse (defined as: less likely to recover) than BW/WH scenarios, I am starting to re-evaluate where the "weak link" is located.
I view WH's as more "stupid" in their actions and WW's as more "evil" in their intent, but I'm starting to view the key to R as being women are just better/stronger at being a betrayed spouse, than men are.
It's just my observation, but BW's don't seem to have near the problem of confronting their WH and exposing their actions, while TOO MANY BH's just curl up into a ball, and become paralyzed by their fear of their WW's actions. BW's also seem to do a much better job of "setting the recovery bar high", than BH's do.
I would bet that if a study were done where recoveries were "scored" on their success, that BW/WH recoveries would score much higher than BH/WW situations ... and it appears from a quick review of the roll here at MB would validate that observation.
There are other obvious variables that come into play here also ... WH's don't seem to form the emotional attachments to their OW as WW do to OM ... because of this, I think we see more WW's having already left the M in their mind when they enter into an A, whereas most WH's are just looking for a little something on the side and aren't interested in leaving their W and family.
Another "add-on" observation about the evilness of WW's ... when was the last time you saw or read about a H making false incriminating allegations about their W's to obtain a tactical advantage in D proceedings??? Compare that to how many times we read right here on MB of the opposite occurring.
So I suppose, I see this as a two-headed monster, in that I view WW's as being worse (again defined as: less likely to recover) than WH's ... but I also view BW's as being better (based on the same definition in reverse: more likely to recover) than BH's.
There is a reason why 70% of all D's are initiated by the W ... and I see it as having two intertwined causes ... WW's have already left the M in their minds prior to entering into the A, and BH's are too weak to stand up for themselves or their families. MyRev, This post is AWESOME.....very well thought out and very interesting observations...... "but I'm starting to view the key to R as being women are just better/stronger at being a betrayed spouse, than men are"..... Any thoughts as to why this is???? Possibly because women for years have been in this role more often than men??? Possibly because women have been in the BS role for so long, more has been done/studied/advise been done on how women handle this???? Possibly because women understand the "why's" more than men??? hmmmmm.....interesting thoughts..... not2fun Thanks, n2f ... Personally, I think it has more to do with the WEAKNESS of some/most BH, rather than any special qualities of BW. I keep going back to a Dr. Laura quote from a couple of months ago: "American women have been systematically emasculating their husband's, and then using that as an excuse to leave them" Just look at the GQII forum right now ... EVERY active BH, with the exception of mgolfer1971, is "whipped", paralyzed by fear of their WW's anger, and stuck in marital limbo hell. NONE of them will stand up to their WW ... even after MONTHS and several FR's ... they remain FROZEN in fear of their WW's. In some cases, it has gotten so bad that I've even found myself "embarrassed" FOR them.
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MyRev,
I was a victim of spousal fear up until about almost 3 years ago. I was afraid to get my wife angry and I did not know why. It was like there was this switch inside of me that laid dormant and all I would do was appease my wife so she wouldn't get angry. My mom told me long ago when I first got married to "stand up for yourself" don't let her run all over you. I had no father figure only her. So I was use to females being in charge.
My wife and I got into an argument about 3 years ago. It was over something trivial like buying our daughter a PSP that she had wanted for a long time. Well I was going to buy it becauswe we kept promising and never would come through. She told me I wasn't going to and for some reason that switch that had laid dormant started to buzz to life in me. I started to remember all the times I just caved and I said to myself..."Not this time!" I did not realize I had so much rage in me for just giving in to her for so long. She looked into my eyes and I don't know what she saw, but she was on the phone within seconds to call the Pastor of our church and another Minister. They came over and I still was in a rage. I was not violent nor disrespectful, but I was stern, forceful and not bending. Even the Pastor was amazed and sat quietly and didn't say a word. I believe she was praying. The kicker that put my switch in full ON position was when she told me I was never the head of the family..she was. That did it for me. I changed everything. I took every thing back. I did a 180. I mean a dark one too. She didn't know if I was leaving or staying. She came to me and told me she didn't want to split up. I had no intentions of it, but she didn't know what I was thinking. From that day on until now it's been different, she asks me for my permission to do anything involving money or whatever. I was lik..so this is what standing up for your self means. Respect. I was giving it, but not getting it. I learned a lesson that night. So yes..women will get away with things as long as you let them. They may not even want to, but because we as men let them..they will
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shaken, you perfectly describe why it is dangerous to engage in extreme giving. Extreme giving leads to extreme taking. Sacrifice leads to RESENTMENT. This is why Dr Harley is so adamantly against SACRIFICE. We are all taught that sacrifice and compromise is a good thing, but all it does is set up RESENTMENT and a sense of entitlement. The taker says "BY GOD, I have given so much that I am ENTITLED to get my way and I intend on taking it!!" The answer is not to sacrifice, compromise, give or take, but to find enthusiastic agreement via POJA. In marriage, your interests and your spouses interests should be considered simultaneously. One of you should not suffer for the benefit of the other, even willingly, because when either of you suffer, one is gaining at the other's expense. If you both care about each other, you will not let the other suffer so that you can have what you want. When you are willing to let the other sacrifice for you, you are momentarily lapsing into a state of selfishness that must somehow be corrected before damage is done. The Policy of Joint Agreement provides that correction. In case anyone is interested, Dr Harley talks about all this here: The Giver and the Taker The Policy of Joint Agreement
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I believe when someone posts that one gender of cheating spouse is worse than another, you should consider the source. And probably also take into consideration the current circumstance that particular poster is going thru at the time of posting. (i.e., in the midst of attempting recovery, wounds still fresh, recurring cheating, never reached true recovery, still trying to comprehend acceptance that no one is immune, etc.).
Generally speaking, being wronged by a cheating spouse is not a contest of which gender can behave more vile.
Maybe ask yourself what you’re trying to gain by proving such a thing?
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MyRev,
I was a victim of spousal fear up until about almost 3 years ago. I was afraid to get my wife angry and I did not know why. It was like there was this switch inside of me that laid dormant and all I would do was appease my wife so she wouldn't get angry. My mom told me long ago when I first got married to "stand up for yourself" don't let her run all over you. I had no father figure only her. So I was use to females being in charge.
My wife and I got into an argument about 3 years ago. It was over something trivial like buying our daughter a PSP that she had wanted for a long time. Well I was going to buy it becauswe we kept promising and never would come through. She told me I wasn't going to and for some reason that switch that had laid dormant started to buzz to life in me. I started to remember all the times I just caved and I said to myself..."Not this time!" I did not realize I had so much rage in me for just giving in to her for so long. She looked into my eyes and I don't know what she saw, but she was on the phone within seconds to call the Pastor of our church and another Minister. They came over and I still was in a rage. I was not violent nor disrespectful, but I was stern, forceful and not bending. Even the Pastor was amazed and sat quietly and didn't say a word. I believe she was praying. The kicker that put my switch in full ON position was when she told me I was never the head of the family..she was. That did it for me. I changed everything. I took every thing back. I did a 180. I mean a dark one too. She didn't know if I was leaving or staying. She came to me and told me she didn't want to split up. I had no intentions of it, but she didn't know what I was thinking. From that day on until now it's been different, she asks me for my permission to do anything involving money or whatever. I was lik..so this is what standing up for your self means. Respect. I was giving it, but not getting it. I learned a lesson that night. So yes..women will get away with things as long as you let them. They may not even want to, but because we as men let them..they will POWERFUL!!! I hope that one of the vets that keep up with notable posts, bookmarks this one and brings it out for every BH that is having trouble standing up to their WW. Thanks for sharing your story, shaken!!!
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Your Welcome MyRev..my pleasure.
Melodylane..yes it is the perfect example. I come to realize that men do this because we desire our wives or woman and want her to be happy so we can be "happy" if you know what I mean. We subconciously condition ourselves this way. While a woman is use to being assertive (especially american women)men are use to being accomodating. That's our downfall. if there is no change..I agree with you..resentment sets in..that's what happened to me. I controlled my anger though. It can get quite dangerous if as a man..you don't.
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You must have had more conservative parents, SC. I was raised by a feminazi in combat boots who was part of the 60's movement. She taught her children that men were inferior in every way, intellectually, emotionally, etc. Basically useless human beings that couldn't be trusted, much less NEEDED. [they were "oppressors" of women, blah, blah...] I remember reading the "Wonder of Boys" when my boys were little and being shocked to learn that boys actually NEED fathers for a proper upbringing!! I was taught the opposite, that fathers were unnecessary. They were little more than a CHILD SUPPORT check and otherwise useless. Women have taught men that they are disposable, so many men have taken up that mantle and actually BELIEVE IT! They roll over without a fight and will abandon their families at the request of their tyrannical W. He is equally to blame, IMO, for going along with this. The notion that men are expendable is very prevalent in society today as a result of that poisonous brainwashing done by those bitter, angry old harpies from the 60s. The damage they have done to marriage and families is just phenomenal. My parents were not from the 60's generation so yes they were more conservative my dad was born in 1919 and my mom was born in 1927 during the time when DIVORCE was a dirty word so men were not bad mouthed. Athough my 2 sisters i guess would be of that generation (they had their kids in 63 and 64 at the same time my mom had me) and they are not that way. And i certainly have not taught my daughters that way either. But I am sure that you are correct about the women's lib movement regarding how women view men. It is just not what i know.
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MyRev,
I was a victim of spousal fear up until about almost 3 years ago. I was afraid to get my wife angry and I did not know why. It was like there was this switch inside of me that laid dormant and all I would do was appease my wife so she wouldn't get angry. My mom told me long ago when I first got married to "stand up for yourself" don't let her run all over you. I had no father figure only her. So I was use to females being in charge.
My wife and I got into an argument about 3 years ago. It was over something trivial like buying our daughter a PSP that she had wanted for a long time. Well I was going to buy it becauswe we kept promising and never would come through. She told me I wasn't going to and for some reason that switch that had laid dormant started to buzz to life in me. I started to remember all the times I just caved and I said to myself..."Not this time!" I did not realize I had so much rage in me for just giving in to her for so long. She looked into my eyes and I don't know what she saw, but she was on the phone within seconds to call the Pastor of our church and another Minister. They came over and I still was in a rage. I was not violent nor disrespectful, but I was stern, forceful and not bending. Even the Pastor was amazed and sat quietly and didn't say a word. I believe she was praying. The kicker that put my switch in full ON position was when she told me I was never the head of the family..she was. That did it for me. I changed everything. I took every thing back. I did a 180. I mean a dark one too. She didn't know if I was leaving or staying. She came to me and told me she didn't want to split up. I had no intentions of it, but she didn't know what I was thinking. From that day on until now it's been different, she asks me for my permission to do anything involving money or whatever. I was lik..so this is what standing up for your self means. Respect. I was giving it, but not getting it. I learned a lesson that night. So yes..women will get away with things as long as you let them. They may not even want to, but because we as men let them..they will POWERFUL!!! I hope that one of the vets that keep up with notable posts, bookmarks this one and brings it out for every BH that is having trouble standing up to their WW. Thanks for sharing your story, shaken!!! I guess because "i" am not that type of a women i can not imagine that women are that way. I have never felt that "i" was the "head of the family". However i do think we are EQUALS in the marriage.
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