Before I go on with my problem...May I please quickly say:

This forum has restored some of my hope in society...Each and every person that responds to each and every post...I am so humbled and appreciative that people are out here to help one another. For the people whom I've read and given advice to original posters; you people are saints.

Okay, now on to me...

I am a 23 year old male, engaged to a beautiful, patient and loving woman. I just graduated college with two bachelor a week ago and I hold a good steady job, better than most of my peers.

I am getting married to Bethany next month, May 9th...But I have been feeling this way (I can admit it is much stronger now) since July/August (asked her in May08).

--My Problem is--

That I don't know what my problem is. But I am very depressed.

For the past eight months I have been destroying the relationship I am in. I don't make attempts to go see her, and only accept time with her when she is willing to come to my house. She lives with religious parents and I am not, so it is heavily frowned upon for her to stay the evening.

I am often cold and depressed in conversation with her; I barely look at her anymore...I've almost stopped telling her I love her on the phone...When I tell my mom I love her, the words roll of my tongue...It takes effort to tell Beth I love her.

She is(was!) my third girl friend ever...pre-dated by a girl who 'cheated (cyber-sex...)' on me and the first was just a stupid fling I lost my virginity on. Both girls were vile in comparison...But my entire life I have feared women and never have held a high self esteem. I never had a G/F in highschool and was more stuck in books and games.

Often I find myself hating her...Just hearing her voice makes me angry, sometimes.

I am somewhat at a loss of words...I don't want to write too huge of a wall of text for readers.

Canceling the wedding doesn't seem like an option, I don't want to cancel the wedding...I am pretty sure I love Bethany. I am seeing a Therapist about her and other stresses. He continually tells me that I have not provided solid proof of anything Bethany does that makes her a bad person. Which is true; because she doesn't do anything to me too evil.

But why can't I get over this depression? I've never been this sad; and I often cry (once a week at least) wondering "What the hell am I doing marrying this girl". I understand that is the 'normal' question guys ask themselves...But Beth and I have both concluded this is MORE than cold feet.

I am honest with her about everything...I ask her why she is marrying me...Why is she marrying someone who has so much doubt. We no longer have a solid relationship...my open-ness with her has created doubt in her now too...Which makes me feel like such crap.

Anyway...I promise to respond and read whatever people write. I am sorry if reading this was a waste of your time. I just really need help...I want to stop feeling this way, but I don't want my relationship to end...I want to be happy.

I barely ever see her...Once or twice a week maybe...

I think it is partly because I have a hard time letting go of annoyances...But I also feel like she doesn't care about my needs and I also feel like she trivializes my feelings.

Sexual Fulfillment is my top emotional need...And (as a single example) when she always suggests I come to her house; it throws me into huge anger/depression...Cause I know we can't have sex at her place.

Is there any words of wisdom anyone can afford?

More so, please ask me probing questions to dig deeper inside of me...because when beth and I or Dr. And I talk...We always get to a point where I honestly cannot answer the question of; 'What is wrong?'

I can go on and on about everything...But it never does any good...It feels like in the end I just have to let go of my worries and cares; but the type of person I am...I cannot...

The only reason why I am still getting married is I am rationalizing that life is not over post-marriage and I can always just 'get a divorce'. Such sick thoughts...And I even realize it.

Thank you for posting, Eric, and welcome to MB.

Ask yourself...

can you act from love even when you don't feel it?

If you don't believe Love is a choice you make...and keep making...acting from it...whether you feel it or not...then don't get married.

It's not Bethany...it's you. It's not her beliefs...it's yours.

Ask yourself deeper questions...because you're onto your feelings giving you information...get the signals. They are coming from your own beliefs...figure those out.

Does Bethany have different spiritual beliefs than you do? Or does she share most of yours?

Know your worries...know your cares...know where they come from inside you.

Check your radical honesty meter...you blame the honesty for making your relationship no longer "solid" instead of you refusing to own your own feelings.

Only you can know and trace them...get the info. She can't. And she wants to marry you anyway...even though she fears...she's in it with you...can work on it together.

Can you?

Seems to me often throughout your education, you did the work even when you didn't feel like it...you didn't rely on feeling inspired to make you...

apply what you know...you crave security, knowing what humans can't know (the future), you want a sure thing...

and the answer you're looking for...is being one.

LA

LA,

Thank you for the poetic response! Reading your words brings tears to my eyes.

I trace my emotions back to as far as my mental conscious can reach. I never make it to a solid answer.

"If you don't believe Love is a choice you make...and keep making...acting from it...whether you feel it or not...then don't get married."

I had to read this sentence, three times and repeat it to myself with my eyes closed to truly understand the concept.

I am the type of person who doesn't invest time and money into something that doesn't provide a return...This I think is my primary character flaw. My fiancee knows this. I think I only feel loved and act upon the love when I feel the relationship is on even ground...But I've been told that in marriage, it is like BOTH sides have to give 90% (not 50%)...

--LA, i really think reading your words made me realize that loving Bethany is something I have to continuously choose to do...All time, no matter what. And even if I...cannot...I still must act on notions of love. Can you please provide feedback on this?

"She can't. And she wants to marry you anyway...even though she fears...she's in it with you"

I know...But I am the one who has created the doubt in her, It was like I wanted to do it...It has taken quite a bit of work to put it in there...While I didn't feel like i was putting it their in objective. I think it happened in result of me communicating, honestly, mine.

But, since I have already caused this pain...Echos of her words radiate though mine and it nearly destroys me to have put doubt of me in her mind.

It makes me feel like her, nor I, should have to be married to someone who has instilled (or has/had) doubts.

Is it possible to get past these silly...But strong (in me) things and fulfill each other's emotional needs?

One more thing to note...She is a rock; it almost makes me think she doesn't care...but I know she does. If i did not cause relationship problems, there would not be any (or a lot less).



"and the answer you're looking for...is being one."

what do you mean by 'being one'?

Being a sure thing.

Be a sure thing. Reliable. Unflaky. Unselfish. I'm not as poetic as LA, but I get her.

Tell us more about your past. Childhood, parents, siblings, friends, pasttimes, what were you good at, bad at, indifferent to, what kind of degrees and work, did you have trouble at school and why/how...stuff like that.

Dude, at 23, it's okay if you're not ready for lifetime commitments. "I'm not ready" is reason enough in my book. Nothing has to be wrong with anybody. Everyone can be all peachy keen and teh awesum and still not be ready.

It is better to not get married than it is to get divorced.

Any tips on drills or tips on obtaining those positive personality traits?

Those words conjure up assortments of 'diet fads'. The ones that never really work in the long term. I think I have to make life long changes...

Thanks canwemakeit.

---

Catperson,

Thank you very much for asking. I did not want to go into anything that was not 'asked of' but I promise complete honesty...

Mostly, it is because; I cannot complain of a bad life...

Nothing tragic ever happened to me in childhood. My parents were pretty happy people, it seemed like they had a good marriage. My dad used to get quiet and reserved on weekends, I can honestly say though...I never thought it weird, nor felt neglected...I was sort of a loner as is.

I think it is weird now though, and I notice a pattern in sadness too.

Anyway...Healthy amount of friends, I have red hair...So that afforded me a certain level of picking on; I was never the fancy of girls though...And I guess I was better at numbers than socializing in groups...

I got most of my socializing, during teenage years online. Everquest, chatting and forums got me most interaction. My favorite past times were video games; which I mastered.

**EDIT** I guess I cannot imagine how I forgot to mention this originally...But my parents got divorced when I was 17...My dad cheated on my mom before I was born...That is what I am told. Bethany's parents are still together. I do not believe in cheating and reading the contents of the Q&A here have strengthen my resolve to never commit adultery. Unless porn watching is considered.

I was always good at relating and understanding with different concepts. It made me a broad conversationalist able, if approached, to talk intelligently. I mostly stayed to myself. I am good at being a nice person, I can show affection and kindness to friends. Good at poker, making fun of myself, my mom and sister think i'm hilarious...beth too... and lastly i'm probably too good at being a dword or ahole.

Im bad at being selfish, I often just do what I want to do with little or no regard to others. Family gatherings are viewed as annoyances, well that is fading...I probably still play too many video games...I utilize pornography, at addiction levels. I am bad at keeping my mouth shut and sometimes i say way the wrong thing. I almost feel I am honest to a fault, I cannot claim to have never lied...But I am very honest...filtering only a little from beth.

Probably the worst is the uncertainty i have in myself, I can't even truthfully re-read the above and say it is 100% myself or if what I'm saying is just coming straight outta my butt...Can anyone relate???

I'm indifferent to all sorts of stuff

Bachelors in Science: Computer Information Systems
Bachelors in Administration: Management of Information Systems

I work at a fulfillment agency; I perform quality control on XML order code. XML order code is the information that is transmitted over the internet from "Website" to (essentially) "Warehouse) when you push the 'I wanna buy it' button. I test the transmissions before any customers to make sure that the information is transmitted correctly and safely before production. If it scores me any threads, I used to do work for the Red Wings, as a blogger.

never really had trouble in early school...Had trouble in college, college was when i 'bloomed' socially and started hanging out in crowds more and attracted women, not many.

I hope I covered the why/how a little.

Again I very much appreciate your interest catperson.

Hehe, thank you for relating with my age level's slang

The girl is mostly teh awesum though...I guess that is said in a lot of these threads...But I read them and cannot completely relate. Bethany commits no crime (and very very little love busters) to me, so I am afraid of losing a great thing...if i could just get over "POTENTIAL" internal crap.

The way I am feeling, it is better try marriage with her. Which I guess answers the thread and should be case closed...BUt I cannot get over these...fears? anxieties or w/e they are. Are these whats causing the friction between us?

**EDIT**And I have come to that conclusion many times before, but here I am back here in depressed sad mode (although i feel like I am coming out of it venting here...gr...). And these negative modes are really starting to affect the relationship.

Here's my thoughts.

First, you need to seek professional help for your porn addiction. Do NOT go into a marriage without resolving that first. If you really loved her, you would not do that to her.

Second, we become just like our parents. He has a history of sadness, YOU have a history of sadness. So find out what his sadness was all about. Learning about it may help you with yourss.

So you've learned most of your socializing on line, which means you haven't learned the day to day ups and downs, give and take, like most of us. When to apologize, when to kiss up, when to stand up for yourself, when to sacrifice for someone else, stuff like that.

In other words, you haven't lived enough yet. You haven't done the stuff most people do; you were alone in high school, and you lived a frat life in college. You've never learned anything else.

IMO, that is why you feel 'wrong' about the marriage. If you get married now, 5 or 10 years from now you'll be wondering what you missed out on.

I'm not saying not to get married, I just think you would BOTH be better off waiting at least a couple years. Spend some time living on your own and living life - outside of college.

As for your selfishness, I have a great fix for you. You and Beth need to sit down and type in
find a charity to volunteer at
in Google or Yahoo, and choose one near you that you will both enjoy. This will do a lot of things. It will get your gaze off of your own navel so that you learn you can spend time on someone else other than yourself. It will give you and Beth a lot of time together each week (remember, MB wants you to spend 15 hours a week together). It will allow you and Beth to see each other in a good light, which will make her more attractive to you. It will set a lifelong habit of stepping outside your comfort zone and giving back to society. And of course you'll be helping someone in worse shape than you, which will also get your head out of your butt and stop wallowing in self-pity.

Good start for now.

What do you mean you're indifferent?

OMG! (How's that for more slang).

I think you could have been my husband. My husband had (still has intimacy issues). Didn't socialize much with anyone other than the computer. Never much luck with the girls.

My husband is a recoverying sex addict. (Porn and spankin' the monkey are his issues.)

PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE get this dealt with before you get married.

I can promise you, your addiction will get worse. No one knows how it can escalate. For some men, it's being arrested for viewing child porn, for others sex addiction escalates to phuysical cheating, with whomever. Please, spare your intended the pain. As a partner, it's very painful to know that while your husband is NOT being intimate with you, he's mentally screwing every women that he thinks is attractive.

You are denying yourself and your SO a chance at real intimacy, and a real marriage. Engaged in SF for 13 years before we finally made love. Up until 1 year ago, we NEVER connected during sex.

My husband did not tell me he was an addict before marriage, and he knew. He lied to my face, looking straight into my eyes about everything that dealt with his sex life. That damage simply can't be repaired. Well, it can mostly. But you can't undo this sort of damage. Once you've broken the trust your SO has for you...

Likely SF is your highest EN right now because of your activities.

Learning how to build a strong marriage is hard enough. Don't make it harder by throwing in an untreated addiction.
Seriously, when my husband was going through therapy I was pregnant. I had to juggle my ob appointments, my therapy appointments and my husband's therapy appointments . Thankfully, my employer is pretty supportive of us.

My husband always felt indifferent. Nothing was really good or really bad.. See, he was numbing himself, he wasn't feeling. He told me once, while he was acting out, that the best he could hope for in life was contentment.

There are lots of resources available to you:
A therapist that specializes in sex addiction (often labeled CSAT)
no-porn.com
recoverynation.com
Any 12-step group (SLAA, SAA)
Anything by Patrick Carnes (Out of the Shadows, Don't Call it Love)

Good Luck.

Catperson, thank you for your time and response.

Some of my comments, next, may appear to be combative and overly defensive...However, I am stating them in a neutral tone and only make them to gather more (elder and mature) opinion from you and others.

--Ah the porn addiction...Bethany does frown upon that, however...She does not 'hate' it persay? Because, and I am not sure why, I have heightened sexual need? I get pain down there...If i go more than 24-48 hours without...Busting a nut...

However, she, suffers from extreme pain if she has vaginal intercourse more than once every 4-5-6 days...And even on that 6th day...Often she feels pain down there during. She is on BC and believe me, we've tried like every brand of lube known to man...She is orgasmic, but she always just tells me to focus on myself...Because it hurts her after she orgasims...or something...She is 21. We've searched far and wide on the Internet for solutions...I think we need to just explore each other sexually more and I need to find out more of what 'turns her on' as part of the breakdown we had last night focused on how sex is...pretty much just about me...To be honest, I don't want to watch porn...I want my fiancee/wife to be the soul person to fulfill that EN. I think through my teenage years and earlier twenties, i have accustomed myself to 'once-per-day'...I very much enjoy sex and i know it is my top EN. I constantly say to myself I need to whan myself off the once-per-day mentality...It is hard.

I have discussed the sadness my dad felt with him. This is part of the problem; I think our sadness stems from the in-ability to control the fluctuations of emotions. We all go through ups and downs, I am intellegent enough to understand that I have minor mental problems...and as I have stated I am about 11 sessions into pyschotherapy...However, I do not think we have made any breakthroughs yet in helping me...

My sadness is, i think, that I am never satisfied with myself...I always want to experience more, I always want to be better. I beat myself up over failed expenditures and I hold myself in high expectation...when really all I want to do is sit around and not contribute to society.

Also my sadness comes in VERY heavy waves (and i touched on this briefly before) in the in-ability to even 'trust' my own feelings...It is so hard for me to dechiper what is really me and what is just thoughts and emotions generated inside my head.

I can understand what you mean on the 'you haven't lived yet'. Is it not possible, however, to lead a fulfilling and happy life with marriage early? I am friends with another couple who the male is not able to 'stay out over night' and is often 'controlled' by his (soon to be) spouse. I have explained to Bethany that because we are getting married to early, that she must not attempt to 'control' me to that extent and allow me experience the joys that I hold dear. She nearly slaps me when I remind her/explain that...Saying that she would never deny me the recreational experiences I desire. I believe her, as her father is aloud to do all the hunting, fishing and boat buying he wants. He obviously takes good care of his marriage with my fiancee's mother. I look up to their relationship as a great success.

I also, as a teenager, always viewed myself wanting to get married early...I never enjoyed the 'game' persay, and always thought of myself getting married early...But only after living with the girl and dating her for at least two years...Well, I had to comprimise on the first attribute (living before) but I am okay with that as it has been documented to cause potentially huge problems, and was not an option with such a religious family.

"I'm not saying not to get married, I just think you would BOTH be better off waiting at least a couple years. Spend some time living on your own and living life - outside of college."

Overall, however, you are correct. I know deep inside that I could survive, without Bethany...It would hurt, bad, to break-up with her...And I feel like that is not an option. But I know deep-down I could survive.

I feel like our relationship has problems, but we are pretty compatibale as well. I am easily the 'emotional/girly' one in the relationship, I am the one who purchased all the Dr. Harley books and plan on reading them...She doesn't share that same enthusism, she is more silent about it and believes things should come naturally. Obviously this can and probably will cause friction in the future...But isint knowing half (as the saying goes...) the battle?

I am sorry that while posting my fears and my desire to break up, I am defending our relationship so much. I don't know if I feel some childish need to prove to people that it will work, or what I am doing...You can see this tie into the above paragraph about me not knowning exactly where my feelings come from.

I really like the charity idea. The only problem I have with that is channeling those actions into real positive energy. I could see myself thinking too objectivley about the charity and viewing it as "self-righteous" and not focusing on the real purpose of doing it...Then I may feel it is some sort of punishment for considering myself a selfish person. At which point i'll wonder why I am punishing myself. I don't know if I could get Bethany to do something like that with me, probably, but she is so...mentally sound?(i_think)...that she may not think it is needed, however this is speculation. If I think deeply about it though, even if Bethany doesn't come...Maybe it really would be benificial to perform the action you describe. It causes me pain to consider it, 'why do that Eric, go home and do somtehing that you want to do...Don't worry about other people, wtf sir.' But maybe through forcing myself to go out and witness the problems in this world and give free time...it will help?

Really though; this forum has opened my eyes...You people all take time out of your day to help other people with their mental and relationship problems. I am so honored...I mean reading some of "LoveAnyway's" posts make me tear up she/he is so kind and dedicated.

--The indifferent comment meant that, I am indifferent to a whole slew of things: Bowling, sports, clothing, cars, work, reading...meaning i didn't want to describe the millions of things I am just 'okay' with. Or I mis-understood what you meant by indifference.

---I bought almost all of Dr. Harley's books yesterday, and I have read most of his Q&A already. They are all in the mail on their way; but i bought His Needs, Her Needs at Borders yesterday.

--Thanks again catperson...Can you help me reflect (catperson or anyone) on what I typed above? Please, again, understand I am not trying to be combative with my 'defense(s)'.

Sorry to double post...

Is it not a good thing to want to tackle these issues head on? Am I being too emotional? Should things just be natural? It is not that I feel that our relationship is completly crappy, but I think so intesivley on these subjects as attempts to start the marriage off correctly...I mean Dr. Harley does teach good practices right? I am just trying to rationalize and take into account how often people get divorced...Is it a good idea to start off the marriage with the mindset:

"This is going to be super hard, you don't realize it yet...Please work through these books with me."

I say that as, much to her dismay and retaliation at the discussion of...I know that Bethany is naive in ways...Shes never lived away from home and I am sure has lived a very sheltered life. She is very smart, and I think she 'gets it' in may ways...But I am so afraid of her...neutralness? Passive? When I guess, I am more fiery and have more heart.

Anyway...Thanks again.

And, eventually, you will make it hard for your SO to please you. After nearly 20 years (early teens to early 30's) of my husband taking care of himself, I couldn't get him to orgasm by giving him an hj or bj. That is, until my husband stopped masturbating. He'd conditioned himself to respond to his touch only.

I also think, you understand, that if you don't have release every day, you won't die. Your man bits won't burn up in sudden combustion.

If you don't want to watch porn, then why don't you stop? Put a filter on your computer, like net nanny, and have your SO put in a password.

Nothing on the Marriage Builder's web site will work until you get the porn addiction worked through.

Very interesting...As that is the case with me as well; her foreplay only makes vaginal intercourse go more quickly...I cannot reach release on strictly that stimulation alone.


Yes, I do understand that...And while I can feel a bit childish stating; 'but why allow myself to be in..blueball pain, when releasing it is so...easy?'

I understand that pain and strife must be adhered to, sometimes, for personal growth...I wonder how much restraint and growth I will have to go through for my johnny to fricken only need it every 72-96 hours...But part of me doesn't even want that to occur...because sex is so pleasurable...I don't want to 'want it less'.


Another interesting comment that made me look inside...Thank you inrecoverynow. Infact, i deleted my massive archive of porn in a self-induced mental breakdown one evening (she was not involved at all). I can remembe thinking "How can she keep up with this type of [censored] Eric...Get rid of it now"...I was in a different state of mind *cough*...Maybe at the time a good one...I then promptly deleted, years and years of gathered...300+gigabytes of pornography. Since then...I've submitted back into the habit, to relieve the pain (buildup) down there...I only get to see Bethany once or twice a week and it causes me much guilt to kinda...pounce her when I see her...

You are an active addict.

IMVHO, you have no business getting married.
Your addiction, left untreated, is going to ruin your marriage.

Your addiction, if treated, at the very least, will bring lots of pain and heartache to the marriage. Pain and heartache that is managable. At the very worst, it will ruin your marriage.

Please, get yourself sober and in recovery. Look at the resources I've listed on page 1.

Get yourself to a 12-step meeting for sex addicts. See what your future may hold.

Wow. Where do I start? There is so much you need to be working on I can't see where to start. I'll just go down your post.

She is not old enough to know what SA IS. She has NO IDEA what it will do to her marriage. WE DO. So listen to us.

eric, you do NOT have heightened SF need. You're supposed to be that way. What matters, though, is how you decide to deal with is.

Your SA is 'telling' you that you have to do it so often because you are looking at SF from a distorted, unhealthy viewpoint. Make an appointment TODAY for your general doctor and get a recommendation from him for a qualified SF therapist. Do NOT get married until you have this under control!

First, how can you expect to be married to someone who doesn't go to a doctor and resolve this? She is in pain now? Just think what it will be like in 10 years, after a couple kids, and she doesn't care about you all that much any more (because you've been burying yourself in your SA). Tell her you can't marry her until she goes to her gynecologist for this issue.

And seriously? Asking the Internet for help for SF pain? This would be a good opportunity to start acting like adults and go to a doctor.

Wonderful! Then don't! Start tomorrow morning - none for one week, til next Tuesday night. Focus on that and that alone. Research ways to stop. Get help. Tell your friends what you're doing and ask them for help. Join a group.

Huh? What does that mean? You have a chemical problem? Or you're just emotional? If you don't have a doctor's opinion on this, you are just making an excuse. Time to grow up and stop making excuses.

We could spend a year on this, but I'll give you my armchair opinion. You are a 20-something. I assume you're American or some other 'advanced' society (not third-world with issues like running water). You are Generation Y ("Generation Y is sometimes called the "Trophy Generation", or "Trophy Kids," a term that reflects the trend in competitive sports (as well as many other aspects of life) where "no one loses" and everyone gets a "Thanks for Participating" trophy." from wikipedia). You have so much done for you (parents, electronics, machines) that you have more time on your hands than you know what to do with. So what do you do? You reflect. You worry. You sulk. You think about what you have and don't have. You wonder if you could have 'better.' You wallow.

And you become depressed. What's the solution? Get off your butt and go out and accomplish something. Volunteer. Grow something. Take up a hobby. Exercise.

Fill your life so that your life doesn't fill you.

eric, this just proves that you are too immature to get married. First, of course you can have a fulfiling married life. IF the two of you didn't have such issues and were focused on each other - NOT yourself. Like you are.

Why would a married man spend the night 'out' away from his wife? Is that what you think marriage is? If so, then you are not ready to be married. Marriage is for when you have gotten all that out of your system, and you're ready to move on to the next stage of your life - with a woman!

Of course you will still have fun with your friends. BUT SO WILL SHE! Are you ready to watch her go out to a sports bar and drink it up with her girlfriends? Then you shouldn't be going, either.

Listen to yourself! You are already telling her you don't want a marriage, you want a convenience. What do you think a marriage is? It is committing to LOVE your spouse and TAKE CARE of them - not to expect THEM to take care of YOU. How do you think a marriage like this can survive?

What on earth are you talking about? You volunteer to HELP someone or something. You don't go to Habitat for Humanity and say "I need to feel good about myself. Give me a paint brush." You say "I can see people need help. Tell me what to do." And you just do it. You are overthinking this. The benefit comes from the subconscious feeling you get when you see a neglected puppy adopted to a good family or watch a family move into a house you helped build with them.

Exactly the point. You are so wrapped up in yourself that you can't see the real world. Which doesn't revolve around you, btw.

Two things. One, your SA is numbing you to the world. It just does. So get rid of it today. Two, what you are describing is a CHOICE. Just like love is a verb. You're aren't 'in love' - you choose TO love. So choose TO care about cars, work, sports. Ask your therapist about this.

Eric, this is your immaturity showing again. Do you realize how many times a typical 30 year old man has SF (any kind)? Once or twice a week (guys, I don't need to hear YOUR statistics - I'm making a point here). You are experiencing pain ONLY because you have conditioned your body to it. Just like a 2-pack-a-day smoker who feels withdrawal if he cuts back to one pack a day. He has to re-condition his body to not need so much nicottine (sp?).

You have to recondition your body to a normal state, and the pain will go away.

Thank you for your time and opinion, I am at work...And cannot afford anymore time at the moment...I am providing this thread to my therapist. Good idea?

One more question, and please let me know asap.

Can I show this thread to Bethany? Do you think that is a good idea?

Again, I want to thank you catperson...I feel very discouraged right now however...I don't feel like I am a bad person...I want to be with bethany...I have to stop reading this stuff and typing or I'm going to break down and start crying in my cube! Heh...

Iminrecoverynow,

I just now saw this message on page one, i missed it previously...Fortunatly..I am very honest with Bethany, I do not hide OR LIE to her!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obviously we are both very naive and inexperienced in love...We have both only had a very few relationships.

I will begin looking at the resources you provided after work today.

The only thing that is really confusing me, is the doom and gloom you all paint...While I am finding it, hard, I still have a positive expectation of my marriage with Bethany...I want to work out these issues...I wnt to be happy with her. Is that immaturity as well? *sigh*


----AGAIN----THESE ARE NOT FALSE THANK YOUs...Thank you very much for your haste responses.

Is your therapist trained in sex addiction? If not, please find a CSAT. Normal, every day therapists do NOT know how do help with sex addiction.

Your SO DESERVES the truth: the truth that she is going to be marrying an addict. She needs to understand what her life will be like. That you may one day, endanger her health.

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TAKE AWAY THE ABILITY OF YOUR SO MAKING AN INFORMED DECISION ABOUT MARRIAGE. YOU ARE PLAYING WITH HER LIFE. IT IS SELFISH AND INEXCUSABLE. Shouldn't Bethany get to decide if she's comfortable marrying an addict? Shouldn't she get to decide what her boundaries will be before marriage? Shouldn't she get to decide if she's willing to live with the risks of a recoverying addict? Why are you making these choices for her? Why are you playing God with her life?

YOU ARE ALSO NOT A BAD PERSON.

You've just made some not so healthy choices. That CAN BE unlearned. Look, my husband has been acting out for nearly 20 years. He's sober, now for two, with no slips or relapses. Our marriage is amazing. It CAN be done.

Look, if you tell Bethany about your addiction or not, you risk loosing her. You are not going to be able to hide it from her forever. She will find out. I promise you, your sex life with her will go down the drain. She'll notice when you guys are having sex once every two months..she won't know what exactly is up, but she'll know something is.

ETA: Here's another thought. She may not be the best partner for you, when you get sober. Wouldn't you want to figure that out before you married her?

I would most definitely show it to her. In fact, I would encourage her to post here too, to start her own thread, just to talk about stuff.

Eric, there is nothing wrong with you. You're a normal young adult. But the key word is YOUNG.

I tell everyone I meet to NEVER marry before you're at least 25 (either of you), and NEVER marry until you have lived out on your own for at least a year, if not 2.

You both need to learn what that is like. You need to grow from the experience, learn how to deal with things.

Sure, you could try to learn it together. Many people do. But you are HERE, getting answers on how to do things better so you and Beth can have a better marriage - long-term!

If you are going to be together for the next 50 years, why can you not wait 2 more years? Is this all just because you don't want to be embarrassed or deal with the cost of postponing it?

Isn't that a sad sad reason to be choosing to get married?

[quote=eric292
The only thing that is really confusing me, is the doom and gloom you all paint...While I am finding it, hard, I still have a positive expectation of my marriage with Bethany...I want to work out these issues...I wnt to be happy with her. Is that immaturity as well? *sigh*


[/quote]

No, wanting to be happy with your spouse is not immaturity.

Addiction, left untreated, leaves much doom and gloom in a person's life. Go to Barnes and Nobles and look in the addiction section. How many books do you find about alcoholism that say "AA is full of crap. I'm the wife of an alcoholic and I'm mentally and emotionally fine."

My husband and I were together for 5 years before we married. Even the first couple years of our marriage were pretty good. Our marriage began to fall apart when we created a family. This happened rapidly.I went from enjoying my husband to doing everything I could to not spend any time with him. I was happy that we could vacation for two weeks and not kill each other. I could completely tell, in our marriage, when my husband's addiction escalated. Our marriage got worse and worse.

And then I discovered he had an addiction he "forgot" to tell me about. And yes, my friend, that's a big fat lie.

I wouldn't wish our journey on anyone. It has been very painful. It's like recovering from an affair. I wasn't sure we'd make it. It has been worth it. We are now mentally and emotionally healthy people (most of the time.) We are now fit to raise kids-healthy kids..

But, I much would have preferred to deal with this before marriage. I had NO idea what I was getting into when I said my vows.

And I watched porn with my husband. So I don't hate porn. I hate addiction. I hate dysfunction.

I would also suggest, that figure out how to tell Bethany about your addiction.

She will have lots of questions. You know, there's lots of myths out there about sex addicts. Most of which are unfounded.

You might want to consider telling her during therapy...or give her resources..for her there's COSA and S-Anon. Recoverynation and no-porn have support forums for SO's of SAs.

Please listen to inrecovery. What you do is just as destructive as an alcoholic to a marriage. It doesn't seem like it because you're functioning. Now. But in a year, when Beth starts seeing you head for the basement or the bathroom - yet again - you can bet you won't be functioning for long.

Find a professional who will help you deal with it.

There is no point in asking for forgiveness in you...LOL...But holy frick I had no clue I was such...I know not a 'bad person'...But I do not like doing things that are inexcusable...Bethany is coming over this evening...I will show her this thread IMMEDIATLEY.

Edit...Some of this seems so odd to me...Like I am a really screwed up person. I am viewed, by peers, as a generally okay dude. It really freaks me out to find out how screwed up I am...Not that I allow outside opinion to make me feel great..I am just saying; I didn't realize I was so...Nevermind that is being in self-pity...I just need to start medicating myself? IN proper healthy ways...I am not one of those people to be like; "okay, i'll get right on it...and quit two weeks later...frick that".

<3 to you people...

<--scared crapless...*sigh*

To be honest...I am fricken SA...Oh gawd...

I am in such distress, I can't stop checking this forum...lol...I will post again after this evening...I have also given this URL to my therapist.

Nope, don't ask me for forgiveness. But it took me 18 months for me to forgive my husband.

You are not a screwed up person. My husband has a ton of pluses going for him:he volunteers selflessly, he's smart, he's caring, etc etc. He's just made some poor choices.

There's no need to medicate yourself. CBT is all my husband needed to STOP medicating himself.

I personally do not believe that mentally/emotionally women choose to marry using addicts.

You marriage will be easier if you can deal with this stuff before you get married..

You likely have no clue about lots of things outside of you, because, addictions are a very selfish thing.

You are getting terrific advice here, Eric, from Cat and IR. Take time to read and re-read what they say...slowly...a sink-in process...because they are speaking to you from their passion, their core. What is in you sparks in them. Mutuality.

My DH (dear husband) is a SA. He's struggled with it his whole life, much like IR's has. He had some of the same experiences you did in dating relationships in high school, then college. It wasn't until five years ago that he began to address this in himself, through counseling. I fully support you obtaining counseling from an expert in SA. Makes a world of difference, I believe.

Some of the side effects of SA are affecting your relationnship with Bethany. One, as you said, SF becomes an outlet, a physical cure to a perceived ailment...not an intimacy. Utilizing a bodily function like a tool...getting a fix. Translates, symbolically, into humans as tools...increases intimacy distancing and distracting...seeing other equal, whole human beings as two-dimensional objects...and the objectification affects all your human relationships...creeps in...and sates your fear of intimacy...of truly knowing and being known...of accepting and being accepted...hits your core self and distorts your life and how you experience it.

It is really tough partnering an SA. We have our own experience, our own reason for being drawn to someone with an addiction...which is our own, in a way. Understand this about Bethany, too. You're not the problem...you share this problem.

Side effects, not causation. Just to distinguish.

At the seat of SA there are a lot of parallels to alcoholics...like you cleaning out your cache of porn and then procuring (perusing) it again. Every broken promise to yourself hurts...depresses...saddens...increases distrust in yourself. Often, you will perceive yourself acting radically honest with others and continuting to lie to yourself. Tough way to live. Understandable. Been there, done that. Understand that Bethany's boundaries in this regard, each broken promise to herself, also creates that self-betrayal pain, too. You guys share that.

Thank you for your comments on my post to you.



Trace your emotion in the moment to the belief it is coming from. Takes awareness and commitment. "I feel sadness welling up right now. I'm thinking about <blank>. Comes from my belief about <blank>." Approach without judgment...when we investigate to know, we cannot judge the path as we are on it. Stand back and listen to the belief you're perceiving or viewing something. Hear yourself. You speak.

Be prepared to hear beliefs which may baffle you. A friend tells you someone plowed into his bumper and didn't leave a note. You may feel your friend's anger, fear...his emotions...you may experience a reinforcement in your beliefs that people are bums, selfish, out for themselves...and you may experience feel more virtuous, good, better. From your beliefs.

Or you may experience sadness (which is a healing emotion, btw), a wistfulness, wishing car accidents never happened, ever.

Get to know what your thoughts are, focus on being aware of them, and hearing your beliefs behind them. Write down those words you hear...don't focus on where they came from (where you heard them)...understand as you write them down, this is what you're believing right now.

Again, they are choices we made, even before we knew we chose what we believed. You're investigating, not judging.

Listening to ourselves increases our skill at listening to others, btw. Can't go just one way. Some may consider that selfish, negative...denial of self is a constant source of conflict...so we experience conflict with others. Self-understanding is important.




You are not alone. We are taught to judge our actions in the outcome...therefore, to control the outcome through our actions. Crucial flaw...we control our actions, not outcomes. It's a shell game to believe otherwise. There are consequences within our control...you steal a car, you'll most likely get caught and go to jail. There are consequences which continue, throughout our lifetimes, from one action, outside of our control. You have both. Know which is which and don't fool yourself into believing you actually control any outcome.

That's radical honesty. So you don't act from love by stating admiration to Bethany--you state your admiration of Bethany to her because you admire. Getting our intent aligned, our premise set, is the first step. We've been taught backwards...and Harley has it correct...because you act to meet that EN, you will have loving feelings...you aligned with your intent, did not deceive or sacrifice...you connected.

If you make up stuff to admire her for to get her to say she admires you...then you're controlling, manipulating and lying from the get go. Not an act of love, your choice to do it. When you state your stuff (your thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions and perspective), you are acting from intimacy and will experience intimacy. Your job is to know your stuff (and I hear you're stuck on that step) and to share it. And the other half is to know her stuff (what she shares), to know her right now.

Tougher than it sounds...and I think you know this. Your emotions are signalling you that what you doubt most is yourself...and it hurts.

As it should. There's not a thing wrong with you, Eric. You are a whole, complete, wonderfullly made human being, from love. Bethany is your equal in every way. She's complete, too. We don't have awesome marriages by eliminating all our defects...we have awesome marriages because we go through life together. We have experiences we like and dislike together.

Marriage doubles your life experience, deepens, widens, expands it.

Only works if you work it.

Please read Harley's article on The Giver and The Taker...again, acting to your commmitment, even when you don't feel like it.

You can honor The Marriage, even when you don't feel like honoring your spouse or yourself. Do it, anyway.



I believe so, as well. We choose so routinely, so often, it becomes seemingly an automatic choice...your thoughts have dwelled on her, your experiences together, and the feelings follow. You've made her your treasure, a part of you. Doesn't seem like a choice. Good to remember it is a choice...that if you made something/someone else your focus, dwelled there, stopped treasuring Bethany (for instance, dwelled on what ifs/if onlys, focused on fear, lived in fantasy), then you would not have the connection, feel the love you do now. Which is why porn addiction kills relationships.

Like any other addiction, consumes our focus, our energy, becomes our treasure.

Know this about our human design...about yourself...build trust in yourself to redirect your thoughts...and focusing on others, excluding yourself isn't real or healthy, either...awareness of self...listening, understanding, knowing...is your job. Our inherent human responsibility...and sharing yourself is part of it. Whom you choose to connect with, the depth of truly being known and knowing...is for your spouse. That's intimacy. Doesn't depend on the spouse, compatibility, etc...because you've chosen, haven't you? When you choose unreal visuals to do this with, then you are telling yourself you want to disconnect from intimacy.

When you may actually want to disconnect from fear, frustration, pain, anger...something else entirely. Which is essentially saying you want to not exist, not get information from yourself.

Explore your passions...check yourself for passionate gratitude, passionate acceptance, passionate peace...see if your beliefs are precluding you from these experiences. Or boxing them away from your entirety because you've decided they can't be where you find them...we trick ourselves in many ways to "cope"...we learn coping skills first, then living skills...and I think you experienced these in reading posts on this board, at family gatherings, in ways which disturbed you, felt foreign to you.



You believe you're powerful enoough to create doubt in other people...can you also make them love you, be in love with you, hate you, drive them away, feel happy, make them lash out at you?

Would you consider Bethany doubts, believes, allows your influence, even to what degree? Which means you cannot make her anything but a sandwich. That's it. Your human limit. Hers, too. She cannot make you doubt.

You doubt.

You allow her influence, how much, how little, as well. You control the door, how wide or narrow...and it may fluctuate. Which is why you cannot be controlled, nor can you control her.

That's the essentiality of respect. Understanding and choosing to believe in our human design, embracing what is only ours (responsibility) and our limits (what is not) is acting from and experiencing respect.

She feels. That's hers. She believes. Those are her beliefs. And I think you fear her controlling you because you act on your urge to control...want guarantees of behavior, perceptions, feelings which are not yours...because you can't guarantee yourself your own.

Welcome to our human journey, Eric. You've been on it...experiencing it...by your own choices in what you believe, how you perceive, where your thoughts dwell, resulting in what you feel.

And there's a reason we confuse others influence as under our control...because part of our self-understanding comes from our reflection..the mirror others hold up for us. When it's all...we abandon ourselves and fear abandonment and intimacy (being taken over); when it's part, we're in balance. Others are part of our self-journey...ironically, no one takes it alone...we can't. Not in our design. And wonderfully...the two become one union is part of our self-journey, too...sharing our lives (plural) rather than two having one life, one experience.



This guilt and shame are signals you are over-reaching your real power and going into fantasy power. You cannot make her experience. That's grievous from what we believe. Grieve it.

Now embrace the privilege to share her pain...to understand and be there, experiencing, together, exclusively...and grateful for her choosing to do so with you, too. All things come to pass. Emotions deliver the information...they come and go...our relay from our beliefs. Not forever. For right now.

Not a write-off...not a "doesn't matter"...truth of existence...if you abuse someone, you do pound a nail into their wood...and when you amend, and remove it, leaves a scar, a place where something happened...and you make sure you know what, why you pounded that nail...and that you knew it was impossible to undo. We are in this world together. We are going to bump into each other to connect...we are going to hurt, thrive, sorrow and fear. Intentionally and unintentionally...we connect in many ways...through conflict, happiness, one breath or in agreement and commonality. We connect.



Find your beliefs...do you believe there is only one person that's meant to be your wife? Do you believe that if you pick wrong, your marriage will fail? Do you believe some humans are truly better for you than other humans? Do you believe your love bank is solely dependent on her actions? Do you call her fears/doubts/questions/investigation silly? Do you discount, deny or dismiss your own emotions? Is that one of your strongest coping skills?

Sadness is healing...you may experience intense anger turned inward, which is depressed, not sadness. You may have to sort out one from the other...the wistfulness, wishing, expectations, identifying your "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts". Identifying what emotion is part of tracing it back to what belief.

"I fear most her leaving me in 20 years." Real fear or manufactured emotion to get you to not do something, hiding another fear behind it?

"I fear she'll control me like my mother" "Replace me like my father"...or

"I fear I will make her leave me...control me...replace me."

All for nothing...not the outcome you want...not what the outcome you strive so hard to control...Find your fears...listen to them...write them down...hold them like the small children they are...do not strike, discount or dismiss them. They are part of you. Not to foretell your future...they come from your past.



Follow the Golden Mean...anything to an extreme is harmful. Too much of a rock means rockhard resentment. Too much of water, boundaryless, and you drowned in confusion. You are attracted to each other for what you deny and don't see in yourself. You, too, are a rock...and water...wind and sand...so is she. You are both new every single day of your lives, because you make new choices.

Humans are extremely complex...so relationships mean they are twice so...understandable to think if you got just the right fit/combination, no issues...just bliss. Not real. We are all made from the same hand, same material, equally. Diverse, complex, exponents...no issues, no growth...no new...no experiencing each other as new. The journey is the thing.


The saying is, "It's not finding the right partner...it's being one."

You are half of every relationship you have on this planet. Your half matters. Choosing intimacy is scary...within and with others. Choose it, anyway.

LA

Thank god for blessing people with intellect such as the people on this thred (Cat, LA, IR)

And thank god for blessing you with the kindness and selflessness to spend your time on other people.

I feel that the advice you all have provided is coming to a close:

I will respond once more tonight to your posts after Bethany and I have gone through the post.

LoveAnyways, your concepts are somewhat advanced and I can tell is spoken from someone of great intellegence. I will do my absolute best to interpitate and positivley reflect your lessons. It is hard to figure some of the things out you are talking about.

I don't want to be a bad spouse...I love us so much. *tear*

I can't say it enough; how absolutley amazed I am at the will of you people (saints) to help strangers. Further showing how selfish of a person, I am...*sigh*...

lol, LA, how's it feel to be one of the gifted ones?

You are gifted too catperson.

However, the way in which LoveAnyways writes is...not to trivilize it...from an experienced English writer and from an experienced relationalist.

The true gift that is produced is the willingness to publically display these positive experiences to help another person.

I again thank you for the time.

Bethany and I did review the entirty of this forum last evening, and did not come to any startling conclusions...She still kissed me, told me she loved me, and she thinks that some of the points made here were mis-interpitated (sp..). She agrees that I need to wean myself off a 24 hour habit...and she, again, stated that if I did not watch porn; it would make her feel more confident about herself, with me, in the bedroom.

There is a bit of a ... ?push and shove? ... between being thought of as a SA and just wanting SF as an EN.

Bethany said that she doesn't mind what I do, espcially currently, because she thinks she cannot keep up with that EN...because we are not married and living toghther...and only see each other once or twice a week.

I countered her ...self-pity... with the fact that even right now this thread has opened my eyes to the fact that our SF is typically focused on me and I want to work at ensuring that I am not listening to the 'evil' SA in my mind...At least a lot less... and ensuring that our SF is a circle of energy; not a one-way pounding.

Additionally, I have stated that we need to work on not just 'fulfilling my SF' through intercourse...But through other foreplay activities...Which, IR mentioned is nearly impossible with the way i've accustomed myself to respond to my own touch...Very true.

I am not going to watch porn for a week...And I think that even is a bad goal...Once that week is over, I am sure I will compound it with a further exention of NOPORN.

My removal of my archieve and diving back into the addiction; was not viewed as a horrible thing in my mind...Mostly becasue I did not view what I was doing as a 'problem'. I understand, more so now, that it is...And i will take the steps to become a better spouse to Bethany.

In the end it kinda made me feel stupid, wondering how SF could be an 'addictive' substance...I've heard of 'sex addicts' before, but also thought that meant of Men who try to conquer as many women as they can, sexually. I did not realize that SA could be internal as well.

This world is really screwed up then(men)...Cause I don't have any guy friends (that I know of) NONE HEAR ME...that do not participate in MBing.

That includes friends with signifigant others.

This thread has really made me feel like these problems that have been plauging me for months...are finnally starting to come out of the woods...I can feel the happyness that i've been missing for months inside me again.

Maybe I am just a farsh...Only time will tell...But for once, I don't feel the:

"yep we just had a fight about this...lets have sex and feel better for awhile"

I feel:

"Wow, I am really understanding these things in a different light...I really need to make some reforms inside of me, but Bethany is by my side and supporting me. We can do this."

Talk is cheap...and its been 48 hours.

Thanks again everyon...WoW, mid typing my fiancee calls me and tells me that her Leo engagement ring was 'stolen' while in for repairs.

I'm out...Life's stuff calls.

Eric, please realize that nobody can diagnose you over the Internet with addiction and such. The posters may see you through the filters of their own stories. It doesn't mean that what they think about their partners is true for you.

"Normal sexual frequency" is different for everyone, especially in your age, being 23 years old. If you and Bethany are still confused about regulating your sex life, it would be good to see a sex therapist as a part of premarital counseling.

A trained sex therapist would ask you about your ideal frequency, ask your partner, and would assist in finding an appropriate solution that would work for both of you. A trained sex therapist would also assess your behaviors and feelings about sex and would help you determine if you need help with restructuring your attitudes toward sex.

Dr. Harley has a great book with an outlined plan for newly married or engaged couples, "I Promise to You." You may want to follow his plan in the book, complete questionnaires, discuss important topics about married life, and find solutions you both are enthusiastic about.

Marriage is a serious step, an ultimate change in one's life, and the fear of unknown can be paralyzing. Dr. Harley's book will help you fill in the gaps and hopefully will reduce your fears about the future with Bethany. It wouldn’t happen overnight; it’s a process with a very rewarding outcome.

eric, great stuff!

I have real hope for you guys. You take this information and run with it, and look at how much it has already helped you two be more open and honest with each other!

I would hate to tell someone to postpone a wedding just around the corner, so since you guys are being so honest about everything, I think you can really make things work.

Just promise me that you will look into some more 'learning' in whatever way works for both of you, on how to make and keep a great marriage, since you're both so young. Keep up the communication, never stop telling the truth, and you'll be fine.

Oh, and I highly agree that you need to learn more about SF and how it should be about both partners. My H is amazing for me, always - always - takes care of me first, and doesn't give up til I can't take any more, then we take care of him, if you know what I mean. Take the time to learn what makes it good for her, because she'll likely have the lower drive and you'll want to make it something she looks forward to, long term.

btw, I was just teasing LA; we go way back, and she gets that 'you are amazing' thing about once a month because she's so much more...prophet-like than the rest of us, lol.

I hope she finds her ring!

The world IS screwed up because most people never get to experience what a great marriage can be. People are so hung up on getting what THEY want that they don't realise that they are treading all over someone else and ruining any chance of their marriage being the source of incredible happiness that its possible to be.

I watched my Dad refuse to "be controlled" by my Mum, I saw his huge porn collections and the way he stayed out drinking all the time whether she liked it or not and how he considered his friends to be "[censored] whipped" if they even called home to let their wives know they were going to be late.
He very quickly destroyed any love my Mum had for him, and they lived in a miserable sexless marriage, both of them unloved and bitter until she left.

ERIC-

It's a really good point that marriage is CHOOSING to love for the rest of your life. I had major doubts before marriage, and cold feet. The only regret I have is not working through them before I made my vows.

The confusion/doubt I had was because I was trying to base my vows on how I felt. I kept asking myself how I felt about my husband thinking that was my answer, but really I needed to ask myself am I willing to make a vow to CHOOSE to love him for the rest of my life? The answer was yes, but other thoughts kept interfering.. like are you really 'in love' (which is what our society says is the basis of marriage)?

I went into it thinking I didn't love him, when really I was CHOOSING not to, because I was waiting for my feelings to take over and MAKE THE DECISION FOR ME.

If you have cold feet, that's ok. If you have serious doubts about loving your future spouse, take time to figure out why now. When you say your vows, they are decision you are making, not a feeling you are professing.

Only a hundred years ago marriage based on 'being in love' was a new concept. Being in love is definitely NOT a bad thing, but it needs to be taken for what it is- a biological, emotional, sexually-driven experience that indicates you want to mate with someone.. how's that for romance . We are to the point now where society says the 'in love' part trumps everything else, as if that's noble. The problem is, that it's ripping apart marriages. In reality, God's plan, keeping your holy marriage vows is noble.. not following a feeling.

Again, being 'in love' is a good thing, and I you should have affection, but marriage is not based on that. Especially now, since love and sex are separated in our society... it's tragic because the passion that is supposed to be exclusive to marriage no longer is. No wonder divorce is so frequent.